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Posted: 3/15/2025 6:59:33 PM EDT
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I am contemplating doing a F1 can. Not firmly decided. I haven't done a F1 for a couple of years; back then they hadn't thought up the "send us pics of your lathe and barstock" or whatever. This would be STRICTLY for .22LR. If it works amazingly well I might do another for 9x19mm (subbies) and/or .45ACP. Maybe. Not gonna do real rifle rounds. Not even subbies for .300BLK. Thinking about Maglite D cell to maximize volume per unit length. As it pertains to internals, while I don't have a 3D printer I am sure some friends of mine do. I am confident they would be willing to show me how to use the 3D printer (with some of the higher temp materials) to print some kind of a core. When/if I do a 9x19mm or .45ACP version I might make a blast chamber from something metal (probably stainless) to aid in the life of the plastic parts. Hardly needed for .22LR, though. All of this to get around to the point of the question, "If I submit a F1 and say I might start the build from a maglite tube will I get auto-denied?" I guess the reasoning from my perspective as to why it COULD get approved is that Maglites (and their accessories) have obvious other applications. This is NOT a solvent trap or fuel filter build proposal (which I know they'll deny). Anybody else try a F1 like this of late? Thoughts? If we have maglite modders on here any experience about how to close-up the button hole on the side of the tube? Or are extension tubes smarter for this reason? Either way, I don't mind raiding material from my flashlight collection. |
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Don't build w/ a maglite, so many available avenues today. Where'd you get that deny a solvent trap build? For 22lr, go XRT Tactical and don't look back. They even make components pertinent to your 9mm desire. Could work for 45 as well, but this depends on other factors. |
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Originally Posted By Morne: "If I submit a F1 and say I might start the build from a maglite tube will I get auto-denied?" I guess the reasoning from my perspective as to why it COULD get approved is that Maglites (and their accessories) have obvious other applications. This is NOT a solvent trap or fuel filter build proposal (which I know they'll deny). You're thinking logically, quit doing that, it's the ATF. The answer is that any part you're *intending* to use for a suppressor is *itself* a suppressor, so if you tell them that you intend to use parts you have on hand, then you already have illegal suppressor parts on hand. The only legal answer is that you're not sure what you're going to make your can out of until you get the approved form back, but you may use [raw materials] and [machine tools]. My last one was approved with "Raw stock to be machined on my lathe and/or mill, materials to be determined upon approval of registration." I sent them a stock image from google of the type of lathe I have. I recently did a form 1 on a MagLite actually! But I'm with User55645 on not recommending it, there are way better options out there, and I only picked this because I was specifically doing an Israeli integral inspired build and wanted the exaggerated features. It's a monocore, which I also don't recommend especially for anything other than .22lr. A MagLite stuffed with freeze plugs or whatever can be perfectly serviceable if you know what you're doing, but that XRT tube with radials will be great in a much smaller, lighter package.  |
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A normal D cell build is too big for 22, here is an older thread that covers it, maybe you can see the names, I can't but I do know for sure that the really awesome cool machining is by sixtysixdeuce / echo machine https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/Anyone-build-a-1-5-or-wider-diameter-22-can-/55-504395/ |
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Originally Posted By VinnieBoomBahReborn: A normal D cell build is too big for 22, here is an older thread that covers it, maybe you can see the names, I can't but I do know for sure that the really awesome cool machining is by sixtysixdeuce / echo machine https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/Anyone-build-a-1-5-or-wider-diameter-22-can-/55-504395/ |
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Originally Posted By arr199: You're thinking logically, quit doing that, it's the ATF. The answer is that any part you're *intending* to use for a suppressor is *itself* a suppressor, so if you tell them that you intend to use parts you have on hand, then you already have illegal suppressor parts on hand. The only legal answer is that you're not sure what you're going to make your can out of until you get the approved form back, but you may use [raw materials] and [machine tools]. My last one was approved with "Raw stock to be machined on my lathe and/or mill, materials to be determined upon approval of registration." I sent them a stock image from google of the type of lathe I have. I recently did a form 1 on a MagLite actually! But I'm with User55645 on not recommending it, there are way better options out there, and I only picked this because I was specifically doing an Israeli integral inspired build and wanted the exaggerated features. It's a monocore, which I also don't recommend especially for anything other than .22lr. A MagLite stuffed with freeze plugs or whatever can be perfectly serviceable if you know what you're doing, but that XRT tube with radials will be great in a much smaller, lighter package. https://i.imgur.com/Rnksb65.jpeg Do you have any more pics of that Israeli integral clone ? |
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Originally Posted By User55645: Don't build w/ a maglite, so many available avenues today. Where'd you get that deny a solvent trap build? For 22lr, go XRT Tactical and don't look back. They even make components pertinent to your 9mm desire. Could work for 45 as well, but this depends on other factors. I see that website and I am like "NOPE" |
1Andy2: it's just a question of if we decide to stop throwing coal in the furnace and lean on the brakes or if we're going to blow the boiler up getting to Full Retard'sville.
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Originally Posted By corruptor: FWIW they are legit. I've ordered a few of their products and am very happy with the quality and speed of service. I wouldn't hesitate to order from them again. Originally Posted By corruptor: Originally Posted By BURN: I see that website and I am like "NOPE" FWIW they are legit. I've ordered a few of their products and am very happy with the quality and speed of service. I wouldn't hesitate to order from them again. I am sure they are great...the BATFE not so much... in the 2022-2023 time line you see post online about the ATF cracking down on denying Form 1 stamps if you show up on a buyers list from "kit" web sites. |
1Andy2: it's just a question of if we decide to stop throwing coal in the furnace and lean on the brakes or if we're going to blow the boiler up getting to Full Retard'sville.
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Originally Posted By BURN: I am sure they are great...the BATFE not so much... in the 2022-2023 time line you see post online about the ATF cracking down on denying Form 1 stamps if you show up on a buyers list from "kit" web sites. And at the end of '23 is when they released the open letter I spoke of; which was meant to clarify where they drew the line (just like they did w/ the 80% kits). Hence, this is why you don't see anyone (based in the US) seling center-marked parts. XRT was around before that went down (IIRC they had center-marks) and they're still here, so are a handful of others. Some have started up after. Go for it! |
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Originally Posted By User55645: And at the end of '23 is when they released the open letter I spoke of; which was meant to clarify where they drew the line (just like they did w/ the 80% kits). Hence, this is why you don't see anyone (based in the US) seling center-marked parts. XRT was around before that went down (IIRC they had center-marks) and they're still here, so are a handful of others. Some have started up after. Go for it! Originally Posted By User55645: And at the end of '23 is when they released the open letter I spoke of; which was meant to clarify where they drew the line (just like they did w/ the 80% kits). Hence, this is why you don't see anyone (based in the US) seling center-marked parts. XRT was around before that went down (IIRC they had center-marks) and they're still here, so are a handful of others. Some have started up after. Go for it! But it is not just center marked spots... its also says firearm silencers,” because this allows the propellant gasses to expand and cool. By contrast,a hole serves no purpose in collecting solvent or debris and is actually contrary to the purported use of a “solvent trap.” The presence of indexing marks to drill a hole is not a prerequisite to classification as a “firearm silencer”; it is merely an example of such evidence/ And thats just one area from this letter thats says stay away. https://www.atf.gov/file/186521/download |
1Andy2: it's just a question of if we decide to stop throwing coal in the furnace and lean on the brakes or if we're going to blow the boiler up getting to Full Retard'sville.
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Originally Posted By BURN: I am sure they are great...the BATFE not so much... in the 2022-2023 time line you see post online about the ATF cracking down on denying Form 1 stamps if you show up on a buyers list from "kit" web sites. Originally Posted By BURN: Originally Posted By corruptor: Originally Posted By BURN: I see that website and I am like "NOPE" FWIW they are legit. I've ordered a few of their products and am very happy with the quality and speed of service. I wouldn't hesitate to order from them again. I am sure they are great...the BATFE not so much... in the 2022-2023 time line you see post online about the ATF cracking down on denying Form 1 stamps if you show up on a buyers list from "kit" web sites. When I applied for the Form 1 I didn't have any idea how I was going to build it, just that I was going to buy a tube and components and make it work. I decided to go with XRT well after the stamp cleared. That's the same stance I'm taking on all of the Form 1 stamps I'm applying for now; get the stamp first and worry about the details later. |
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Originally Posted By BURN: But it is not just center marked spots... its also says And thats just one area from this letter thats says stay away. That letter is literally what makes this easier to understand (and is what I've been referring to). You need to start w/ the definition of silencer and work from there. Then you get to "solvent traps" and what you quoted from the open letter. A witness mark, indexing mark, center mark, are all representing the same thing in this scenario. Remove such a feature and the ATF is saying evidence of being a silencer is lost (providing you started w/ an understanding of the definition). This is why silencer companies can sell end caps w/o you needing a stamp. They're literal silencer parts but the Mfr has created a scenario where they no longer fit the definition. It's the same reason this was ruled not to be a silencer by a federal court. Clearly intended to be a monocore, but didn't fit the definition.  If you're not comfortable w/ them, fine, but please don't try and discourage others from using these legally available parts simply do to your lack of comprehension. |
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Originally Posted By User55645: That letter is literally what makes this easier to understand (and is what I've been referring to). You need to start w/ the definition of silencer and work from there. Then you get to "solvent traps" and what you quoted from the open letter. A witness mark, indexing mark, center mark, are all representing the same thing in this scenario. Remove such a feature and the ATF is saying evidence of being a silencer is lost (providing you started w/ an understanding of the definition). This is why silencer companies can sell end caps w/o you needing a stamp. They're literal silencer parts but the Mfr has created a scenario where they no longer fit the definition. It's the same reason this was ruled not to be a silencer by a federal court. Clearly intended to be a monocore, but didn't fit the definition. https://cdn-fastly.thefirearmblog.com/media/2024/05/15/14160007/atf-arrests-man-for-ebay-silencer-sales.jpg?size=720x845&nocrop=1 If you're not comfortable w/ them, fine, but please don't try and discourage others from using these legally available parts simply do to your lack of comprehension. It is not a lack of comprehension. Its a gathering of information and information sharing. I very well may be wrong, but too many sources are saying the ATF is saying this is a no go. you can legally buy those parts and use them as cooling systems or spring covers or whatever. buying those parts with the intent of making them into a suppressor is where it gets sticky. In the Russo case. it was an argument about Intent vs. Design. In Russo the focus was on whether a defendant intended a part to be used as a silencer. If you get a form 1 then buy these part Intent vs Design becomes very easy to argue that you are going to make that suppressor you got your tax stamp for. Then on top of that you have the 2025 Supreme Court ruling in Garland vs. VanDerStok confirmed that the ATF has the authority to regulate parts kits and unfinished components if they meet this "readily convertible" standard. This means that even without "dimples," if the physical geometry of an item (like a specialized formed titanium cup) allows for near-instant conversion into a silencer part, it is legally treated as a firearm or suppressor. I don't want to discourage home build suppressors. I don't agree with the ATF's logic. I just don't want me or a member here to go to jail or lose my rights for a victimless crime because some DA or ATF guy wants a promotion. And I will say it again. I MAY BE 100% WRONG. but I do not believe it as simple as some try to make it out to be. |
1Andy2: it's just a question of if we decide to stop throwing coal in the furnace and lean on the brakes or if we're going to blow the boiler up getting to Full Retard'sville.
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Originally Posted By BURN: It is not a lack of comprehension. Its a gathering of information and information sharing. I very well may be wrong, but too many sources are saying the ATF is saying this is a no go. you can legally buy those parts and use them as cooling systems or spring covers or whatever. buying those parts with the intent of making them into a suppressor is where it gets sticky. In the Russo case. it was an argument about Intent vs. Design. In Russo the focus was on whether a defendant intended a part to be used as a silencer. If you get a form 1 then buy these part Intent vs Design becomes very easy to argue that you are going to make that suppressor you got your tax stamp for. Then on top of that you have the 2025 Supreme Court ruling in Garland vs. VanDerStok confirmed that the ATF has the authority to regulate parts kits and unfinished components if they meet this "readily convertible" standard. This means that even without "dimples," if the physical geometry of an item (like a specialized formed titanium cup) allows for near-instant conversion into a silencer part, it is legally treated as a firearm or suppressor. I don't want to discourage home build suppressors. I don't agree with the ATF's logic. I just don't want me or a member here to go to jail or lose my rights for a victimless crime because some DA or ATF guy wants a promotion. And I will say it again. I MAY BE 100% WRONG. but I do not believe it as simple as some try to make it out to be. I'm thinking about filing a Form 1 tomorrow to make a 22 suppressor, but damn if it ain't confusing. I would like to file the form, then buy a solvent trap after its approved, and drill the holes. I don't have a machine shop, of course the fuel filters, solvent traps, whatever, are suppressor kits. But, why can't I buy a suppressor kit, after I get permission to make the suppressor? If I want to build a model car, I buy the Revel kit at Walmart. I don't buy molds and plastic to make the car model. I don't understand it. Are you expected to have a machine shop, with the ability to make a suppressor out of a bar of steel? |
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Well I filed a Form 1 to make a 22 suppressor. It was free, the worst they can do is deny it  I included a picture of a piece of aluminum pipe, and that my current plan was to use common hand tools to make a suppressor out of it. I selected a current model in the system, 22Suppressor, and made up a short serial number. We will see. |
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