Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
BCM
Durkin Tactical Franklin Armory
User Panel

Posted: 4/29/2014 12:12:33 PM EDT
Hi,
I'm a little confused on a couple of things.  (Actually a lot of things)  I have read that free floating the barrel can make your rifle more accurate, conversely I have read that bedding the barrel can make your rifle more accurate.  These two things seem to be in opposition to each other, so I guess when do you apply each, and how do you know which will work with your rifle?  One is to minimize barrel contact and the other seems to maximize barrel contact with the stock.  
Thanks
Rick
Link Posted: 4/29/2014 1:57:46 PM EDT
[#1]
Start by googling some slo-mo videos of barrels being fired, focus on the ones that show the barrel moving. Watching how the barrel moves will improve your understanding of the issue.

Old school was to fully bed the barrel in the fore-end, and to this day, a perfectly bedded rifle barrel that has consistent, even contact between the wood and the barrel is the sign of a high quality, well made rifle.

The problem with this is that wood is dynamic, and can and will change dimensions with changes in the environment. A rain storm might cause the stock to swell, cold could shrink it, all affecting the point of aim. Much time and effort was spent selecting high density, straight grained wood, and carefully fitting it to eliminate pressure points, then doing everything you could to weather proof it , back when wood was the standard for stocks. Good custom stock makers hand selected the piece of wood with precise vision of how the grain would affect the final product. Laminated wood is much more stable than natural wood, for the most part.

The solution was to free float the barrel, so it doesn't touch the wood and cannot be affected. This works best with fairly stiff barrels, often thin sporter barrels like a little pressure midway down their length to stabilize them and dampen some of the harmonics. this led some manufacturers to leave a high spot in the barrel channel at the end, and gun tinkerers have gone as far as to imbed machine screws in the forend to adjust pressure on the barrel or epoxy bed the barrel at the end.

Cheap plastic stocks  will not  be affected by weather, but will flex and can change their contact with the barrel from pressure on the rest, or a sling.

Generally, todays school of thought is that the less interference there is with the barrel, the more accurate it will be. So modern cheap rifles come with free floated barrels, higher end rifles come with stiff composite and aluminum stocks that are free floated, and even wood stocked rifles are often free floated.

The receiver, on the other hand, needs to bedded firmly into the stock, and accuracy seekers commonly epoxy or fiberglass bed the receiver to lock it into the stock to provide an anchor point for the barrel. often the first couple of inches of the barrel are bedded also. Many modern accuracy stocks use either aluminum pillars, or an aluminum bedding block to facilitate this, and the dedicated will skim coat these with epoxy or the like as a final step for a perfect fit.

In ARs, the only bedding to be done is perhaps truing the receiver where it meets the barrel, and adding a freefloat tube to eliminate the contact at the midpoint of the barrel, although some fanatics will use lock tite and the like to " glue " the barrel into the receiver.

Basically, your goal is to provid a rock solid base( receiver mated to stock) as an anchor point to attach the barrel, then have the barrel able to repeatedly perform exactly the same every time it's fired, usually by eliminating any interfering contact.

ETA: as a rule, stiffer barrels are more accurate, so very accurate rifles often have a heavy barrel, and shorter barrels. There are some exceptionally accurate rifles with long thin barrels, but it's easier to get accuracy, or more properly, precision, from a short, stiff, free floated barrel.

Accuracy: hitting where you aim.

Precision: being able to perform the same every time.

Get Both!
Link Posted: 4/30/2014 7:58:35 AM EDT
[#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Start by googling some slo-mo videos of barrels being fired, focus on the ones that show the barrel moving. Watching how the barrel moves will improve your understanding of the issue.

Old school was to fully bed the barrel in the fore-end, and to this day, a perfectly bedded rifle barrel that has consistent, even contact between the wood and the barrel is the sign of a high quality, well made rifle.

The problem with this is that wood is dynamic, and can and will change dimensions with changes in the environment. A rain storm might cause the stock to swell, cold could shrink it, all affecting the point of aim. Much time and effort was spent selecting high density, straight grained wood, and carefully fitting it to eliminate pressure points, then doing everything you could to weather proof it , back when wood was the standard for stocks. Good custom stock makers hand selected the piece of wood with precise vision of how the grain would affect the final product. Laminated wood is much more stable than natural wood, for the most part.

The solution was to free float the barrel, so it doesn't touch the wood and cannot be affected. This works best with fairly stiff barrels, often thin sporter barrels like a little pressure midway down their length to stabilize them and dampen some of the harmonics. this led some manufacturers to leave a high spot in the barrel channel at the end, and gun tinkerers have gone as far as to imbed machine screws in the forend to adjust pressure on the barrel or epoxy bed the barrel at the end.

Cheap plastic stocks  will not  be affected by weather, but will flex and can change their contact with the barrel from pressure on the rest, or a sling.

Generally, todays school of thought is that the less interference there is with the barrel, the more accurate it will be. So modern cheap rifles come with free floated barrels, higher end rifles come with stiff composite and aluminum stocks that are free floated, and even wood stocked rifles are often free floated.

The receiver, on the other hand, needs to bedded firmly into the stock, and accuracy seekers commonly epoxy or fiberglass bed the receiver to lock it into the stock to provide an anchor point for the barrel. often the first couple of inches of the barrel are bedded also. Many modern accuracy stocks use either aluminum pillars, or an aluminum bedding block to facilitate this, and the dedicated will skim coat these with epoxy or the like as a final step for a perfect fit.

In ARs, the only bedding to be done is perhaps truing the receiver where it meets the barrel, and adding a freefloat tube to eliminate the contact at the midpoint of the barrel, although some fanatics will use lock tite and the like to " glue " the barrel into the receiver.

Basically, your goal is to provid a rock solid base( receiver mated to stock) as an anchor point to attach the barrel, then have the barrel able to repeatedly perform exactly the same every time it's fired, usually by eliminating any interfering contact.

ETA: as a rule, stiffer barrels are more accurate, so very accurate rifles often have a heavy barrel, and shorter barrels. There are some exceptionally accurate rifles with long thin barrels, but it's easier to get accuracy, or more properly, precision, from a short, stiff, free floated barrel.

Accuracy: hitting where you aim.

Precision: being able to perform the same every time.

Get Both!
View Quote


Buy this man a beer.
Link Posted: 4/30/2014 11:47:57 AM EDT
[#3]
Thank You!
Very easy to understand yet concise, explanation.  Do you have any similar posts I can look up?  
Thanks
Rick
Link Posted: 4/30/2014 6:06:29 PM EDT
[#4]
Thank You!

Nothing springs to mind as to previous flashes of brilliance.....


This place is full of Wizards, usually I am studying someone else's post gleaning new knowledge.

This time I snuck in first while they were taking a nap or something.....
Link Posted: 4/30/2014 10:44:55 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Buy this man a beer.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Start by googling some slo-mo videos of barrels being fired, focus on the ones that show the barrel moving. Watching how the barrel moves will improve your understanding of the issue.

Old school was to fully bed the barrel in the fore-end, and to this day, a perfectly bedded rifle barrel that has consistent, even contact between the wood and the barrel is the sign of a high quality, well made rifle.

The problem with this is that wood is dynamic, and can and will change dimensions with changes in the environment. A rain storm might cause the stock to swell, cold could shrink it, all affecting the point of aim. Much time and effort was spent selecting high density, straight grained wood, and carefully fitting it to eliminate pressure points, then doing everything you could to weather proof it , back when wood was the standard for stocks. Good custom stock makers hand selected the piece of wood with precise vision of how the grain would affect the final product. Laminated wood is much more stable than natural wood, for the most part.

The solution was to free float the barrel, so it doesn't touch the wood and cannot be affected. This works best with fairly stiff barrels, often thin sporter barrels like a little pressure midway down their length to stabilize them and dampen some of the harmonics. this led some manufacturers to leave a high spot in the barrel channel at the end, and gun tinkerers have gone as far as to imbed machine screws in the forend to adjust pressure on the barrel or epoxy bed the barrel at the end.

Cheap plastic stocks  will not  be affected by weather, but will flex and can change their contact with the barrel from pressure on the rest, or a sling.

Generally, todays school of thought is that the less interference there is with the barrel, the more accurate it will be. So modern cheap rifles come with free floated barrels, higher end rifles come with stiff composite and aluminum stocks that are free floated, and even wood stocked rifles are often free floated.

The receiver, on the other hand, needs to bedded firmly into the stock, and accuracy seekers commonly epoxy or fiberglass bed the receiver to lock it into the stock to provide an anchor point for the barrel. often the first couple of inches of the barrel are bedded also. Many modern accuracy stocks use either aluminum pillars, or an aluminum bedding block to facilitate this, and the dedicated will skim coat these with epoxy or the like as a final step for a perfect fit.

In ARs, the only bedding to be done is perhaps truing the receiver where it meets the barrel, and adding a freefloat tube to eliminate the contact at the midpoint of the barrel, although some fanatics will use lock tite and the like to " glue " the barrel into the receiver.

Basically, your goal is to provid a rock solid base( receiver mated to stock) as an anchor point to attach the barrel, then have the barrel able to repeatedly perform exactly the same every time it's fired, usually by eliminating any interfering contact.

ETA: as a rule, stiffer barrels are more accurate, so very accurate rifles often have a heavy barrel, and shorter barrels. There are some exceptionally accurate rifles with long thin barrels, but it's easier to get accuracy, or more properly, precision, from a short, stiff, free floated barrel.

Accuracy: hitting where you aim.

Precision: being able to perform the same every time.

Get Both!


Buy this man a beer.

+2 very well put
Link Posted: 5/2/2014 5:52:52 PM EDT
[#6]
You really want to go wtf?

We have been making muzzle weights ( some adjustable front to rear) for a few fellows that comp shoot long range, They say the muzzle whip can be controlled...serious stuff

The barrel does a whip X distance from Y (shit not covered in algebra) from this or that....way secret squirrel shit

And sorry can not post pics, had to sign papers, I can say one of our customer/friends is a world record holder ( not bragging just impressed with his center to center spread...about like me sticking my pinky thru a target at over 500m)

Look at the slow speed video on the net, then think of the videos that are not on the net

These receiverers are 1 pound chunks of steel...amazing
Link Posted: 5/22/2014 9:56:56 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Start by googling some slo-mo videos of barrels being fired, focus on the ones that show the barrel moving. Watching how the barrel moves will improve your understanding of the issue.

Old school was to fully bed the barrel in the fore-end, and to this day, a perfectly bedded rifle barrel that has consistent, even contact between the wood and the barrel is the sign of a high quality, well made rifle.

The problem with this is that wood is dynamic, and can and will change dimensions with changes in the environment. A rain storm might cause the stock to swell, cold could shrink it, all affecting the point of aim. Much time and effort was spent selecting high density, straight grained wood, and carefully fitting it to eliminate pressure points, then doing everything you could to weather proof it , back when wood was the standard for stocks. Good custom stock makers hand selected the piece of wood with precise vision of how the grain would affect the final product. Laminated wood is much more stable than natural wood, for the most part.

The solution was to free float the barrel, so it doesn't touch the wood and cannot be affected. This works best with fairly stiff barrels, often thin sporter barrels like a little pressure midway down their length to stabilize them and dampen some of the harmonics. this led some manufacturers to leave a high spot in the barrel channel at the end, and gun tinkerers have gone as far as to imbed machine screws in the forend to adjust pressure on the barrel or epoxy bed the barrel at the end.

Cheap plastic stocks  will not  be affected by weather, but will flex and can change their contact with the barrel from pressure on the rest, or a sling.

Generally, todays school of thought is that the less interference there is with the barrel, the more accurate it will be. So modern cheap rifles come with free floated barrels, higher end rifles come with stiff composite and aluminum stocks that are free floated, and even wood stocked rifles are often free floated.

The receiver, on the other hand, needs to bedded firmly into the stock, and accuracy seekers commonly epoxy or fiberglass bed the receiver to lock it into the stock to provide an anchor point for the barrel. often the first couple of inches of the barrel are bedded also. Many modern accuracy stocks use either aluminum pillars, or an aluminum bedding block to facilitate this, and the dedicated will skim coat these with epoxy or the like as a final step for a perfect fit.

In ARs, the only bedding to be done is perhaps truing the receiver where it meets the barrel, and adding a freefloat tube to eliminate the contact at the midpoint of the barrel, although some fanatics will use lock tite and the like to " glue " the barrel into the receiver.

Basically, your goal is to provid a rock solid base( receiver mated to stock) as an anchor point to attach the barrel, then have the barrel able to repeatedly perform exactly the same every time it's fired, usually by eliminating any interfering contact.

ETA: as a rule, stiffer barrels are more accurate, so very accurate rifles often have a heavy barrel, and shorter barrels. There are some exceptionally accurate rifles with long thin barrels, but it's easier to get accuracy, or more properly, precision, from a short, stiff, free floated barrel.

Accuracy: hitting where you aim.

Precision: being able to perform the same every time.

Get Both!
View Quote


Wow nice job
Link Posted: 6/3/2014 8:47:13 AM EDT
[#8]
Interesting post considering one of my current projects.
Remington 798 .300win mag
Richards micro fit laminated stock, bedded action and first 1.5" of barrel. Rest was free floated, wouldn't shoot less than 3" groups. Tried the factory synthetic  stock, same thing, put laminate back on, put folded playing card between stock and for end. To stimulate pressure point, groups shrunk to 1" with factory ammo.
Link Posted: 7/24/2014 3:18:40 PM EDT
[#9]
I read about pressure points on slim barrels. I see pressure points on the rifles I buy. I have never been able to get a rifle to shoot well with anything but a floated barrel.
Link Posted: 8/12/2014 3:28:51 PM EDT
[#10]
The rifle that got me on the 1 MOA all day board has a fully epoxy bedded barrel channel and a walnut stock.  It averaged <.7 MOA over 25 shots.  I believe it is the exception to the rule however.

Link Posted: 8/12/2014 3:38:05 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Interesting post considering one of my current projects.
Remington 798 .300win mag
Richards micro fit laminated stock, bedded action and first 1.5" of barrel. Rest was free floated, wouldn't shoot less than 3" groups. Tried the factory synthetic  stock, same thing, put laminate back on, put folded playing card between stock and for end. To stimulate pressure point, groups shrunk to 1" with factory ammo.
View Quote


Now the problem with your rifle, or mine above, is where does point of impact relate to point of aim in different ambient conditions?  This is something I want to test, because even though my rifle is capable of 5 shot groups <.75" and in some cases <.500", when I shot it in a winter club match that was scored based on the number of 1" pasties you could hit at 100 yards, the best I was able to achieve was 4 of 5 and I averaged 3.5 of 5.  Even though the rifle (and I) have both demonstrated the ability to keep 25 shots under 1".

I think, and this is just a guess on my part, these rifles that seem to tighten up with pressure points or supported barrels, would do well when free floated if the barrel was stress relieved.  It's my hypothesis that the reason they "calm down" with support is that through their method of manufacture they were left with high internal stress that results in inconsistent barrel whip shot to shot, meaning that the projectile exits the muzzle in different positions each shot.  When stiffened up by support, they become more consistent in their whip and thereby reduce groups.  

However, if it's done in a flexible stock, or one that's susceptible to changing temperature and humidity, then the force exerted on the barrel becomes the new variable in POI.  So a rifle that shoots 1" groups right to point of aim on a dry, sunny 75 degree day, might shoot 1" groups 3" off of POA on a wet, 50 degree day, or in case of the plastic but flexible stock, POI shifts in relation to the different ways it's supported.
Close Join Our Mail List to Stay Up To Date! Win a FREE Membership!

Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!

You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.


By signing up you agree to our User Agreement. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win.
Top Top