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First bullpup - which one? (Page 2 of 2)
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Originally Posted By tavorsterling: Never seen a bullpup, like the Tavor or MDR/WLVRN that blew up and injured the shooters face, neck or any of that stuff. I know DT did some destructive testing and posted videos, and I know there is another video of a X95 in IDF training that had a broken firing pin that fired out of battery, but didn't do anything more than blow the mag out. So For me, steel in that area is a moot point. The downward ejection limits access to the chamber, difficult to see in, and when my gun did jam once, a royal pita to clear out. I have shot my X95 and Wlvrn weak side many times, and never had an issue with brass in the face, as you simply just put your face slightly further back. So to me the downsides of hard to see into the gun, hard to fix jams, was not worth the ever so slightly easier weak side shooting nature. PS90 does downward ejection the right way to do it, easy to check status of the gun, easy to clear malfunctions and that. Originally Posted By tavorsterling: Originally Posted By lazyengineer: What's wrong with the RDB downward eject? I've found it quite reliable, and like the ambidextrous nature. What I really like is the safety aspect , since if you ever do have a barrel obstruction kaboom, there is unbroken heavy steel by your face, and all that blast will be directed downward. Only real complaint is during bench shooting the cases land by your elbow and can burn you. It's not really intended to be a bench gun, but works fine at it otherwise. Never seen a bullpup, like the Tavor or MDR/WLVRN that blew up and injured the shooters face, neck or any of that stuff. I know DT did some destructive testing and posted videos, and I know there is another video of a X95 in IDF training that had a broken firing pin that fired out of battery, but didn't do anything more than blow the mag out. So For me, steel in that area is a moot point. The downward ejection limits access to the chamber, difficult to see in, and when my gun did jam once, a royal pita to clear out. I have shot my X95 and Wlvrn weak side many times, and never had an issue with brass in the face, as you simply just put your face slightly further back. So to me the downsides of hard to see into the gun, hard to fix jams, was not worth the ever so slightly easier weak side shooting nature. PS90 does downward ejection the right way to do it, easy to check status of the gun, easy to clear malfunctions and that. One unspoken weakness to the AUG is the dust cover on the unused side of the ejection port. My bolt will sometimes hit it jam up the gun, and whack my face a little bit when knocking that cover. I probably just need to replace it. I just wish they used the old stocks which didnt even have a left side ejection port and associated cover, that I dont use. |
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| I heard of AUGs eating covers, but seems to be fairly uncommon. Mine never did that, probably a bad batch or something like some of the AUG stocks cracking. That said never seen stuff on AUGs blowing up or anything like that. Just a reddit post of someone shooting ammo from a bag that ended up cracking the barrel, supposedly IMI ammo, but they said it was from a bag mixed with steel case so a little suspect. |
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Originally Posted By tavorsterling: I heard of AUGs eating covers, but seems to be fairly uncommon. Mine never did that, probably a bad batch or something like some of the AUG stocks cracking. That said never seen stuff on AUGs blowing up or anything like that. Just a reddit post of someone shooting ammo from a bag that ended up cracking the barrel, supposedly IMI ammo, but they said it was from a bag mixed with steel case so a little suspect. missed that one Never heard of an AUG cracking a barrel though its an odd BBL design - to be removable, yet to make the dimensions fit, they are too thick and heavy most of the lengths with relatively thin chamber wells. Its the same diameter the whole length, including the chamber. So you have to pay for a thick heavy barrel the diameter of the chamber, fo agun not that accurate.. |
| OP, there is a very good chance that you will leave this thread more confused about which rifle you should get than when you typed your post. They all have their pros and cons and really the on way you will know which one works for you is to try each of them. |
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer: missed that one Never heard of an AUG cracking a barrel though its an odd BBL design - to be removable, yet to make the dimensions fit, they are too thick and heavy most of the lengths with relatively thin chamber wells. Its the same diameter the whole length, including the chamber. So you have to pay for a thick heavy barrel the diameter of the chamber, fo agun not that accurate.. My AUG was pretty accurate with the 20" 1/7 barrel. The 16" 1/9 wasn't. With IMI 77gr ammo was able to get 10 rounds groups under 1.5 moa. 
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Originally Posted By Dissident: OP, there is a very good chance that you will leave this thread more confused about which rifle you should get than when you typed your post. They all have their pros and cons and really the on way you will know which one works for you is to try each of them. Yep, that's pretty much what I did. Can you handle and/or preferably fire the models you're interested in? |
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While I am a little late to the party, I would stay away from the PS90 for many reasons. Number 1, it is too much fun to shoot. Recoil is nil and the compact little package is actually quite comfortable and light to carry and shoulder. Secondly, mags are not expensive any more, not as cheap as ar-15 mags but around $25 a mag and even the 30 round mags can be made/converted to hold 50 very easily. Thirdly, everyone will want to shoot it and that will take money. My go to plinking round is the 40 grain by Fiocchi and 150 round boxes can be had for only $65. Mind you, they will go quick because of all the fun you will have shooting it. Ammunition costs have come down quite a bit and you will want to buy different types. Fourthly, it's ambidextrous without the need for anything to be added to it. These are just a few of my reasons. 
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Originally Posted By Lee_Ho_Fooks: Going to catch a lot of flak for this, but I bought an AUG after years of lusting for one. I absolutely hate it! I wish I could get my money back on it. Good luck in your decision. I've retired my AUG in liue of my RDB, but what do you hate about your AUG? I like RDB a lot better, but can't say I hate the AUG. |
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Originally Posted By tavorsterling: Had a T7, good solid gun, but it heavy and bulky. Even with the initial problems with my WLVRN, once I got it running good, I sold off the T7 and never looked back It's a tank, but the WLVRN will be choking while the T7 is running & gunning. Surprisingly, the weight difference between them is like ~6 oz; size is the WLVRN's main advantage. |
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I will never be able to take seriously a Desert Tech semi auto. Three generations, countless part revisions, so many cycles of customer-led beta testing. The expensive as hell custom barrels and parts people have tried to fix the early gens. DT abandoning them by going to an entirely new revision to avoid having to fix the prior generation. You take a Tavor 7 out of the box, put an optic on it, and away you go. It may be heavier and have less theoretical accuracy but it just works in true IWI fashion. I prefer the SAR to the X95 but both generations also just work, so I can pick the better for me. I may have some issues with design decisions in the Keltec bullpups (especially how dated the RFB is now) but again, they seem to just work out of the box without needing to find the perfect pet load or retorquing the barrel or whatever. They also have great customer service if you need it. For what DT prices them at, I expect premium performance. Maybe the White Laverne (sorry, the acronym-ish name is dumb) is finally better out of the box than the MDR and MDRX but it isn’t a premium experience by any stretch. |
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Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: I stand corrected. The MDRX is/was within that weight margin. Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Originally Posted By Odinforever2000: It's more than 6 oz...its 2lbs. 308Wlvrn is 7.34 lbs vs Tavor 7 is 9.4lbs The Wlvrn also capable of being 6.5cm,223, or 300blk So size isn't its only advantage I stand corrected. The MDRX is/was within that weight margin. I tried a TAVOR 7. with optic the weight was excessive and being a bullpup, your right arm essentially carries the entire load. it's not a field serviceable gun at that weight and handling. . it's accuracy isbad and it's only avaliable in dated .308, meaning its not a fixed position distance gun. Basically, it's pointless. but my MDRx is similar, terrible accuracy, and way too heavy. It is crazy reliable though - interestingly enough (apparently tgeir initial barrels had rough chambers). the new WLVRN is supposed to be better in all of that. Even better, can be had in modern 6.5CM. they whole point of .308 / 6.5 CM class rounds is to hit stuff further away harder, than 5.56 can. why hamstring yourself with a .308 that undermines that, compared to just as common and establish and same cost 6 5CM? |
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Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: I stand corrected. The MDRX is/was within that weight margin. Yea, it was closer to 8.7lbs. But it was forward eject and I really liked the folding charging handles..Dunno why they didn't just beef those up.. While I don't know if a suppressor affects the Tavor 7s accuracy, they can affect the Desert Tech bullpups in a positive fashion. Before the accuracy upgrade program for the MDRX, I could shoot around 1.5moa (10shot groups) with 168gr Fed Centerstike (this kit is now in my MDR). The Mdrx chassis now runs the 6.5cm which is ALOT friendlier to small groups. Also..I have found I like shooting a heavier rifle from the bench..Buuut not so much fun to carry around.  |
| I love my Tavor 7 except feeding anything 308 sucks. Tavor SAR is good, solid improvements are had in the X95. Aug often gets the nod because it’s classic and recognizable also reliable and has solid aftermarket support. FN2000 is interesting but basically unobtainable now. P90 is a real head turner and super practical as a PDW IMO and easier to feed now than ever. No experience with the Hellion though I think I want one. I’ve always had good luck with my MSAR. Out of all of them I’d keep the Tavors if I had to part with the rest and the 7 would stay longer then the 5.56s. |
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer: I tried a TAVOR 7. with optic the weight was excessive and being a bullpup, your right arm essentially carries the entire load. it's not a field serviceable gun at that weight and handling. . it's accuracy isbad and it's only avaliable in dated .308, meaning its not a fixed position distance gun. Basically, it's pointless. but my MDRx is similar, terrible accuracy, and way too heavy. It is crazy reliable though - interestingly enough (apparently tgeir initial barrels had rough chambers). the new WLVRN is supposed to be better in all of that. Even better, can be had in modern 6.5CM. they whole point of .308 / 6.5 CM class rounds is to hit stuff further away harder, than 5.56 can. why hamstring yourself with a .308 that undermines that, compared to just as common and establish and same cost 6 5CM? The T7 platform can accommodate 6.5CM conversion kits if IWI chose to make them. Not sure what it would take to motivate them to do so, but I'm definitely in favor of it. It doesn't inspire confidence in DT when they summarily dropped the MDRX "lifetime" warranty with the introduction of the WLVRN. Classic Firearms compared the 556 & 762 Tavors & WLVRNs.  Desert Tech WLVRN vs IWI Tavor (.308 & 5.56) |
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Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: The T7 platform can accommodate 6.5CM conversion kits if IWI chose to make them. Not sure what it would take to motivate them to do so, but I'm definitely in favor of it. It doesn't inspire confidence in DT when they summarily dropped the MDRX "lifetime" warranty with the introduction of the WLVRN. A mistake they rectified. LIFETIME warranty back in place for the Mdr/Mdrx. I wonder why the aftermarket doesnt tackle the 6.5cm in the T7. |
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Originally Posted By Odinforever2000: A mistake they rectified. LIFETIME warranty back in place for the Mdr/Mdrx. I wonder why the aftermarket doesnt tackle the 6.5cm in the T7. Good on DT. The top rail being attached to the Tavor barrel - I wish the barrel was independant - adds a complication. So unless it's relatively easy to transfer the rail assembly across different barrels, I'm not sure the aftermarket is willing to take up the extra cost of making that extra piece. |
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Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Good on DT. The top rail being attached to the barrel adds a complication. So unless it's relatively easy to transfer the rail assembly across different barrels, I'm not sure the aftermarket is willing to take up the extra cost of making that extra piece. I mean, that is also how the Keltec bullpups barrels are mounted. Just with the Rdb I've seen 9mm and 350 legend clamberings..So it can be done |
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Originally Posted By Odinforever2000: I mean, that is also how the Keltec bullpups barrels are mounted. Just with the Rdb I've seen 9mm and 350 legend clamberings..So it can be done I'm not familiar with the KT aftermarket, but if they can get different caliber, it's anyone's guess what's keeping IWI or the aftermarket from supporting the T7 (other than cost). |
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Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: It's a tank, but the WLVRN will be choking while the T7 is running & gunning. Surprisingly, the weight difference between them is like ~6 oz; size is the WLVRN's main advantage. The factory WLVRN in 308 needs some TLC but mine is running like a top, with over a 1000 rounds thru it in 308 without issue. I also felt the WLVRN recoil felt the same as the T7, despite being a lower weight gun, as the gas is more adjustable, and has lighter bcg. WLVRN is nearly 2lbs lighter than the T7, mine weighted 9.44 lbs without an optic, and huxwrx flash hider. My WLVRN with the 556 conversion kit and huxwrx flash hider is 7.7 lbs. 308 I don't have the weight recorded, but is slightly less than that since it doesn't use the mag adapter. |
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Originally Posted By Odinforever2000: Yea, it was closer to 8.7lbs. But it was forward eject and I really liked the folding charging handles..Dunno why they didn't just beef those up.. While I don't know if a suppressor affects the Tavor 7s accuracy, they can affect the Desert Tech bullpups in a positive fashion. Before the accuracy upgrade program for the MDRX, I could shoot around 1.5moa (10shot groups) with 168gr Fed Centerstike (this kit is now in my MDR). The Mdrx chassis now runs the 6.5cm which is ALOT friendlier to small groups. Also..I have found I like shooting a heavier rifle from the bench..Buuut not so much fun to carry around. My Tavor 7, suppressor or not wasn't as accurate as my 308 WLVRN. Every once in awhile it would miracle a respectable group, but match ammo you could expect no better than 2moa consistently. |
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Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Good on DT. The top rail being attached to the Tavor barrel - I wish the barrel was independant - adds a complication. So unless it's relatively easy to transfer the rail assembly across different barrels, I'm not sure the aftermarket is willing to take up the extra cost of making that extra piece. Barrel attached to the top rail is and advantage, as you can leave your optic mounted, and swap out the barrel and optic assembly. Something like the WLVRN you either have to rely on your optic mounts holding zero relative the the barrel, or knowing how to dial your optic in as you swap around. My 556 WLVRN usually wears a 1-6x optic, and in 308 i'll swap in a 2-12, and seems to work well for keeping zero, though every so often there will be a slight shift. |
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Originally Posted By tavorsterling: My Tavor 7, suppressor or not wasn't as accurate as my 308 WLVRN. Every once in awhile it would miracle a respectable group, but match ammo you could expect no better than 2moa consistently. Originally Posted By tavorsterling: Originally Posted By Odinforever2000: Yea, it was closer to 8.7lbs. But it was forward eject and I really liked the folding charging handles..Dunno why they didn't just beef those up.. While I don't know if a suppressor affects the Tavor 7s accuracy, they can affect the Desert Tech bullpups in a positive fashion. Before the accuracy upgrade program for the MDRX, I could shoot around 1.5moa (10shot groups) with 168gr Fed Centerstike (this kit is now in my MDR). The Mdrx chassis now runs the 6.5cm which is ALOT friendlier to small groups. Also..I have found I like shooting a heavier rifle from the bench..Buuut not so much fun to carry around. My Tavor 7, suppressor or not wasn't as accurate as my 308 WLVRN. Every once in awhile it would miracle a respectable group, but match ammo you could expect no better than 2moa consistently. Ammo sensitivity seems to be a problem in Tavor. Seems picky as to what they shoot well for a battle rifle it’s on par with most of them. Have no experience with Wlvrn |
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Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: I'm not familiar with the KR aftermarket, but if they can get different caliber, it's anyone's guess what's keeping IWI or the aftermarket from supporting the T7 (other than cost). I would guess no spare barrel kits for IWI guns to build something custom, so you would have to cannibalize an existing barrel assembly, which for awhile wasn't really available. I considered doing a 6.5 kit for my T7 but wasn't going to sacrifice my only 308 barrel for it, nor could I get a spare barrel for it at the time. Lackluster accuracy didn't help me be motivated for it either. WLVRN had better accuracy, and I could get spare barrels so I did get another 5.56 barrel and turned a custom 20" heavy 5.56 barrel and have gotten some really great results. |
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VHS The AUG is too problematic with the stocks breaking and such, plus mounting lights etc is a pain in the ass. It’s the coolest one, but I think objectively the VHS is better. I have the PS90 SBR, and while it’s awesome and technically a bullpup, I also wouldn’t include it in your list. It’s far more niche and doesn’t feel like a rifle in any way. It’s a subgun shaped like a PC keyboard. The FS2000 is an unreliable POS. I’ll leave it at that. I’ve never missed a gun so little. X95 is great. I just like the VHS more. That’s my vote. |
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Originally Posted By Gunnie357: Ammo sensitivity seems to be a problem in Tavor. Seems picky as to what they shoot well for a battle rifle it’s on par with most of them. Have no experience with Wlvrn Originally Posted By Gunnie357: Originally Posted By tavorsterling: Originally Posted By Odinforever2000: Yea, it was closer to 8.7lbs. But it was forward eject and I really liked the folding charging handles..Dunno why they didn't just beef those up.. While I don't know if a suppressor affects the Tavor 7s accuracy, they can affect the Desert Tech bullpups in a positive fashion. Before the accuracy upgrade program for the MDRX, I could shoot around 1.5moa (10shot groups) with 168gr Fed Centerstike (this kit is now in my MDR). The Mdrx chassis now runs the 6.5cm which is ALOT friendlier to small groups. Also..I have found I like shooting a heavier rifle from the bench..Buuut not so much fun to carry around. My Tavor 7, suppressor or not wasn't as accurate as my 308 WLVRN. Every once in awhile it would miracle a respectable group, but match ammo you could expect no better than 2moa consistently. Ammo sensitivity seems to be a problem in Tavor. Seems picky as to what they shoot well for a battle rifle it’s on par with most of them. Have no experience with Wlvrn Seems that the T7 gets less ammo finnicky with sufficient break-in; it's weight is in line most .308 rifles, WLVRN & SCAR-H being 2 exceptions. If I could change the T7, there are 3 design things I'd make: tool-less ARX style ejection switching; independent barrel without top rail attached; 1:10 barrel twist rate (.308), with caliber kits being a no-brainer. Weight reduction is always a plus, but it would be dependent on what, if any, compromises would result from material subtraction. |
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Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Seems that the T7 gets less ammo finnicky with sufficient break-in; it's weight is in line most .308 rifles, WLVRN & SCAR-H being 2 exceptions. If I could change the T7, there are 3 design things I'd make: tool-less ARX style ejection switching; independent barrel without top rail attached; 1:10 barrel twist rate (.308), with caliber kits being a no-brainer. Weight reduction is always a plus, but it would be dependent on what, if any, compromises would result from material subtraction. Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Originally Posted By Gunnie357: Originally Posted By tavorsterling: Originally Posted By Odinforever2000: Yea, it was closer to 8.7lbs. But it was forward eject and I really liked the folding charging handles..Dunno why they didn't just beef those up.. While I don't know if a suppressor affects the Tavor 7s accuracy, they can affect the Desert Tech bullpups in a positive fashion. Before the accuracy upgrade program for the MDRX, I could shoot around 1.5moa (10shot groups) with 168gr Fed Centerstike (this kit is now in my MDR). The Mdrx chassis now runs the 6.5cm which is ALOT friendlier to small groups. Also..I have found I like shooting a heavier rifle from the bench..Buuut not so much fun to carry around. My Tavor 7, suppressor or not wasn't as accurate as my 308 WLVRN. Every once in awhile it would miracle a respectable group, but match ammo you could expect no better than 2moa consistently. Ammo sensitivity seems to be a problem in Tavor. Seems picky as to what they shoot well for a battle rifle it’s on par with most of them. Have no experience with Wlvrn Seems that the T7 gets less ammo finnicky with sufficient break-in; it's weight is in line most .308 rifles, WLVRN & SCAR-H being 2 exceptions. If I could change the T7, there are 3 design things I'd make: tool-less ARX style ejection switching; independent barrel without top rail attached; 1:10 barrel twist rate (.308), with caliber kits being a no-brainer. Weight reduction is always a plus, but it would be dependent on what, if any, compromises would result from material subtraction. I find the ejection swapping to be pretty easy though I’m also not doing it on the fly just swapped it for a buddy to shoot here and there. I’d love to see caliber exchange kits. Ammo sensitivity I only mean accuracy, never fed mine anything it wouldn’t eat with the gas setting on the right one. Agree on weight reduction I’m not interested in loosing longevity. ETA: it really is an excellent battle rifle/bullpup |
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Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Seems that the T7 gets less ammo finnicky with sufficient break-in; it's weight is in line most .308 rifles, WLVRN & SCAR-H being 2 exceptions. If I could change the T7, there are 3 design things I'd make: tool-less ARX style ejection switching; independent barrel without top rail attached; 1:10 barrel twist rate (.308), with caliber kits being a no-brainer. Weight reduction is always a plus, but it would be dependent on what, if any, compromises would result from material subtraction. My T7 was iffy with anything steel case, at first it would not fire about 1 out of 4 rounds, after breaking in, it was better, but still would get at least 1 in 20 misfires. Brass was always reliable. Didn't have any steel case when I got my 308 WLVRN, but it was sensitive to gas, and venting the gas plug on my WLVRN (as DT started doing) alleviated that issue and is not longer super sensitive to the gas setting or ammo and has been 100% for about 1000 rounds of 308. The weight of the T7 wasn't awful, but it would be hard to reduce it much as IWI favors the aluminum chassis in a polymer shell, which while durable, is a heavy way to make a gun. My biggest issue with the T7 was just how large and bulky it was, then just not having any good handguard options. The stock handguard isn't great, and not much room to run stuff, so usually ended up with a VFG, but the WLVRN is much nicer handguard set up, is way smaller and svelte. The T7 felt very much like holding a 2x6 with a pistol grip screwed on. I had both (sold the T7) and in my initial review of the WLVRN I gave a quick comparison. Its hard to see on camera, but you can see a little bit about how the T7 is bulkier.  Desert Tech Wlvrn review, QC issues still present |
| Well, not my first one, but hopefully my last. After a number of AUGs, a Tavor, and a couple of X95s over the past 20 years, I've decided to give the AUG another run. Ordered a standard black with the thought of picking up a NATO BHO stock and trigger pack at some point. I settled back on the AUG, in spite of the shift to a nitrided barrel and the run of bad stocks, because I really do love the design. I'm a sucker for it. The fact that I can now suppress it, purchase various barrel lengths, change stock colors, and buy a number of aftermarket goodies sealed the deal for me. The rifle should show up on Tuesday. |
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Originally Posted By GraythornTactical: VHS The AUG is too problematic with the stocks breaking and such, plus mounting lights etc is a pain in the ass. It’s the coolest one, but I think objectively the VHS is better. I have the PS90 SBR, and while it’s awesome and technically a bullpup, I also wouldn’t include it in your list. It’s far more niche and doesn’t feel like a rifle in any way. It’s a subgun shaped like a PC keyboard. The FS2000 is an unreliable POS. I’ll leave it at that. I’ve never missed a gun so little. X95 is great. I just like the VHS more. That’s my vote. That is a good point. Steyr takes the cake for worst offender of terrible stealth upgrades, denying part changes, and then deny everything when their stuff fails. Having to leave it to the internet and 4+ years to figure out they made a material change that effectively turned their guns into paperweights for a 5 year period for any serious shooter. |
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I’ve owned them all. For a gun just to shoot and enjoy RDB will always be my top choice. Perhaps the best (of any) 5.56 suppressor host, Light, reliable, accurate, soft recoil, adjustable gas, smooth trigger, and cheap. Unfortunately it is not a very “beefy” rifle. A hardened RDB would be amazing. For a more hardened bullpup, the Hellion is my next choice. It is also an excellent suppressor host, accurate and has soft recoil. Lack of a manual bolt catch does suck. The LOP seemed like a deal breaker until I shot it. It is longer, but not uncomfortable and I never noticed it while shooting and drilling. |
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Originally Posted By Thor: I’ve owned them all. For a gun just to shoot and enjoy RDB will always be my top choice. Perhaps the best (of any) 5.56 suppressor host, Light, reliable, accurate, soft recoil, adjustable gas, smooth trigger, and cheap. Unfortunately it is not a very “beefy” rifle. A hardened RDB would be amazing. For a more hardened bullpup, the Hellion is my next choice. It is also an excellent suppressor host, accurate and has soft recoil. Lack of a manual bolt catch does suck. The LOP seemed like a deal breaker until I shot it. It is longer, but not uncomfortable and I never noticed it while shooting and drilling. I still own them all, and agree the RDB is a fantastic first choice. 
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First bullpup - which one? (Page 2 of 2)
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