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Posted: 2/13/2012 7:39:36 PM EDT
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yes yes i know if i want a good scope to go night force and i plan to. however i was just on counter sniper optics website.. and theyre scopes seem pretty decent..and some are pretty cheap because of "contract overruns". just wandering how they compare to night force...or if they would be a decent choice for a 50. thanks
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yes yes i know if i want a good scope to go night force and i plan to. however i was just on counter sniper optics website.. and theyre scopes seem pretty decent..and some are pretty cheap because of "contract overruns". just wandering how they compare to night force...or if they would be a decent choice for a 50. thanks They have never and will never have a military "contract". It is a scam; stay away. |
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I bought one on a whim, and made it a test mule. It maintained zero, and tracked true, and did so with somewhat repeatable results and consistency. The knobs are rather flimsy, and break easily. The rings (which are included) have hardware that strips far too easily. Glass is not as clear as others in this price point, or even half of this price point. Marketing suggest they are used by either Military or Government agencies, and the markings on the scope suggest the same, however, through research, this cannot be substantiated. They are extremely overpriced, and I feel bad for the person who actually tries to purchase the scope in the "titanium version" . The ranging type reticle, is very impractical, and one would best be served with a rangefinder, than attempting the mathematics to arrive at a mere "guesstimated" range. I did have it mounted via a .338 LM, and the scope remained unaffected by recoil.
Dark Ops Holdings, which is the parent company, also markets knives, and flashlights. After some research, into the Paul Basal model knife, which is sold for over $250, I found the exact knife with the same Paul Basal name, being sold in China, with the same specifications for approximately $30. Of course it is possible, that the land of copyright infringement stole the design, however they usually only do that to "popular" knives. I did speak to Frank Miller, owner/ president of dark ops holdings, regarding my stripped rings, and he said he would gladly replace them. We also talked briefly about precision shooting, and he mentioned he uses his products on his personal .338LM as well. While I do not believe that the scopes are premium optics, nor do I believe they are made in the USA. For the money, I would prefer a Trijicon Accupoint, or a Leupold Mk 4. And for the ridiculously astronomical prices of the titanium models, you are much better served with Schmidt and Bender, or US Optics. They are often seen for sale on Sportsman's Guide, and other value flyers, where they are available for under 200, and as such they might be alright, provided they are marketed as "unobtainium", and are not sold as actual premium optics. -PC- |
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Please note: My test was conducted at my own expense, and the results were not published, since I was not contracted to review it by any third party. As such, i currently would not recommend them, for any professional use, either in the private security/ military sector, or otherwise. This does not mean it is not a decent scope for recreational use. And especially with the complex ranging reticle, it is certain to get plenty of attention from casual observers at the range. But, the model I tested, the 10-40x 56mm w/ 35mm tubes and TDRM reticle, was not up to the task for military or para-military operations. Perhaps the Titanium model in this, or one of the power ranges, may be of better quality, and might pass the test. However, for $5759.00 MSRP, I will not be reviewing it anytime soon, especially at my own expense. Realize this mean that it would be directly competing with the best made scopes in the world. Perhaps they save the better glass/ features for their top-of-the-line titanium models, I do not know. Unless Mr. Miller wishes to submit a sample for evaluation purposes, I will not be outfitting or suggesting that any PMC use these or any other product in their lineup.
I really do wish that a sample of a military-grade optic could be produced for evaluation purposes, just from the standpoint of having another option available. Despite what I have encountered first hand, I want to believe.......................... -PC- |
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Please note: My test was conducted at my own expense, and the results were not published, since I was not contracted to review it by any third party. As such, i currently would not recommend them, for any professional use, either in the private security/ military sector, or otherwise. This does not mean it is not a decent scope for recreational use. And especially with the complex ranging reticle, it is certain to get plenty of attention from casual observers at the range. But, the model I tested, the 10-40x 56mm w/ 35mm tubes and TDRM reticle, was not up to the task for military or para-military operations. Perhaps the Titanium model in this, or one of the power ranges, may be of better quality, and might pass the test. However, for $5759.00 MSRP, I will not be reviewing it anytime soon, especially at my own expense. Realize this mean that it would be directly competing with the best made scopes in the world. Perhaps they save the better glass/ features for their top-of-the-line titanium models, I do not know. Unless Mr. Miller wishes to submit a sample for evaluation purposes, I will not be outfitting or suggesting that any PMC use these or any other product in their lineup. I really do wish that a sample of a military-grade optic could be produced for evaluation purposes, just from the standpoint of having another option available. Despite what I have encountered first hand, I want to believe.......................... -PC- Its all a scam. ALL of it. |
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I am not in the position to say all of his products are a scam, as I am sure he could produce (I would hope) a better optic than what I experienced. I will say that the marketing is rather, colorful, to say the least, and uses words/ phrases to embellish the products extensively. Unfortunately, this is common place in today's advertising world. Words such as "Bertrillium" produce search results unique only to the Counter Sniper Products, which tells me, it is either proprietary element to them (doubtful but okay), or is a made up word. IR invisible type III coating???? Another claim, which produces search results unique to CounterSniper Optics. Upon use with IR, and at varying distances, the scope appeared normal, when viewed side-by-side with a Trijicon, and Leupold Mk. IV, there was no difference in recognition between the three scopes. It was by no means, a low signature object. Perhaps this was because I received an over-run scope, and it in fact did not have the proprietary coating, that the full-priced scopes would have.
About being "Government Over-runs". It does remain entirely possible, that the scopes, sold as over-run contract scopes, were produced in an attempt to win the bid for a government contract. There has been numerous contracts, which numerous manufacturers submit their products in an attempt, to win aforementioned government contracts. If that is the case, a minimum order, may have been required, and thus over-runs could be the result of a failed attempt at becoming an official optic. I do find the marketing to be creative, to say the least. I would really like Mr. Miller to step up, and discuss the "source" of his optics, to put rumors to rest. I doubt if this will ever happen, though, as he has had ample opportunity to do so. I definitely do not recommend them as of now. I paid approximately $770 for my test model. Perhaps the top-of-the-line Titanium model, in a better power range, would provide better optical clarity and performance. I find it to be highly suspect, and would treat it as such, until proper testing (non-media) of the top-of-the-line models is conducted. I just personally have better things to do with the over $5K asking price. Scam? I do not know..................Suspect? Highly until proven otherwise. -PC- |
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I am not in the position to say all of his products are a scam, as I am sure he could produce (I would hope) a better optic than what I experienced. I will say that the marketing is rather, colorful, to say the least, and uses words/ phrases to embellish the products extensively. Unfortunately, this is common place in today's advertising world. Words such as "Bertrillium" produce search results unique only to the Counter Sniper Products, which tells me, it is either proprietary element to them (doubtful but okay), or is a made up word. IR invisible type III coating???? Another claim, which produces search results unique to CounterSniper Optics. Upon use with IR, and at varying distances, the scope appeared normal, when viewed side-by-side with a Trijicon, and Leupold Mk. IV, there was no difference in recognition between the three scopes. It was by no means, a low signature object. Perhaps this was because I received an over-run scope, and it in fact did not have the proprietary coating, that the full-priced scopes would have. About being "Government Over-runs". It does remain entirely possible, that the scopes, sold as over-run contract scopes, were produced in an attempt to win the bid for a government contract. There has been numerous contracts, which numerous manufacturers submit their products in an attempt, to win aforementioned government contracts. If that is the case, a minimum order, may have been required, and thus over-runs could be the result of a failed attempt at becoming an official optic. I do find the marketing to be creative, to say the least. I would really like Mr. Miller to step up, and discuss the "source" of his optics, to put rumors to rest. I doubt if this will ever happen, though, as he has had ample opportunity to do so. I definitely do not recommend them as of now. I paid approximately $770 for my test model. Perhaps the top-of-the-line Titanium model, in a better power range, would provide better optical clarity and performance. I find it to be highly suspect, and would treat it as such, until proper testing (non-media) of the top-of-the-line models is conducted. I just personally have better things to do with the over $5K asking price. Scam? I do not know..................Suspect? Highly until proven otherwise. -PC- You got screwed. Of course he isnt going to discuss the source. They are from china made with cheap materials. |
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SCAM - I refuse to buy anythign from websites such as sportsmansguide that sell them. Because they know these things are a giant scam. Look into Vortex PST. 10000000000x better. They are just made in a different part of China. Just because two products come from China doesn't mean they are equal. At least vortex isn't running a scam. |
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SCAM - I refuse to buy anythign from websites such as sportsmansguide that sell them. Because they know these things are a giant scam. Look into Vortex PST. 10000000000x better. They are just made in a different part of China. Just because two products come from China doesn't mean they are equal. At least vortex isn't running a scam. Last time I check the Philippines are not China. But Vortex doesnt try to hide anything. They are quality scopes with one of the best warranties in the business |
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SCAM - I refuse to buy anythign from websites such as sportsmansguide that sell them. Because they know these things are a giant scam. Look into Vortex PST. 10000000000x better. They are just made in a different part of China. Just because two products come from China doesn't mean they are equal. At least vortex isn't running a scam. Last time I check the Philippines are not China. But Vortex doesnt try to hide anything. They are quality scopes with one of the best warranties in the business Vortex has good customer service but 3 out of the 4 products I have had from them had quirks. I gave up. Great service though. |
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I usually avoid certain countries of origin, when buying specific products. This includes clothing, knives, and of course, optics. While I prefer other origins, there does exist "better" choices when speaking of specific origin-types. I usually do not give them the time of day, however, I recently purchased a Barrett 99 which had a Konus M30 6.5-25x 44mm Mil-dot scope mounted and bore sighted. While it does not represent superior optics, it is at least better than most coming from the same region. Instead of traditional red & green, they have settled on a blue-lit reticle. Total movement is only 50 MOA in 1/8 increments, so it is not ideal for maximizing the .50 BMG's ability to stretch its legs, and certainly not feasible without a tapered base. It does feature a nifty (if not novel) cant bubble level within the scope to allow monitoring of the cant, to some degree, without breaking cheek-weld. The reticle is engraved, but not a first-focal plane design, at least on my model. I do not know how true the dots measure up, or even how well the scope tracks. Tactile feel of the knobs is about what you would expect with a sub-$400 scope. While I admire the ability to provide a product such as this, so that all sportsmen may be able to get into the sport, it is not, obviously, for me. I cannot even really think of why someone would have put it on a Barrett in the first place, but it was, for me, a free scope.
It is nice that the price-point has an offering so as all shooters are not excluded from participating. So there is most definitely a market for these inexpensive import scopes, provided they are not marketed as more than such, which I believe is what the CounterSniper/ Dark Holdings is doing. The marketing is catchy, and if true, it might make for an excellent scope. Unfortunately, we know all of the advertising is not 100% legit, therefore we trust none of it to be truth. I think what we must remember is, if it sounds to good to be true, then it probably is. There are a few scopes, while being affordable imports, are still of decent quality for many shooters in the sport. However, because to some people a missed shot can mean a lost life, marketing should honestly reflect purposes of use of the product. I will be getting a Leupold Mk.IV or NightForce soon, and in package form with the BORS system from Barrett. I will be doing a full review/ testing for the combo if anyone else is interested. -PC- |
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I usually avoid certain countries of origin, when buying specific products. This includes clothing, knives, and of course, optics. While I prefer other origins, there does exist "better" choices when speaking of specific origin-types. I usually do not give them the time of day, however, I recently purchased a Barrett 99 which had a Konus M30 6.5-25x 44mm Mil-dot scope mounted and bore sighted. While it does not represent superior optics, it is at least better than most coming from the same region. Instead of traditional red & green, they have settled on a blue-lit reticle. Total movement is only 50 MOA in 1/8 increments, so it is not ideal for maximizing the .50 BMG's ability to stretch its legs, and certainly not feasible without a tapered base. It does feature a nifty (if not novel) cant bubble level within the scope to allow monitoring of the cant, to some degree, without breaking cheek-weld. The reticle is engraved, but not a first-focal plane design, at least on my model. I do not know how true the dots measure up, or even how well the scope tracks. Tactile feel of the knobs is about what you would expect with a sub-$400 scope. While I admire the ability to provide a product such as this, so that all sportsmen may be able to get into the sport, it is not, obviously, for me. I cannot even really think of why someone would have put it on a Barrett in the first place, but it was, for me, a free scope. It is nice that the price-point has an offering so as all shooters are not excluded from participating. So there is most definitely a market for these inexpensive import scopes, provided they are not marketed as more than such, which I believe is what the CounterSniper/ Dark Holdings is doing. The marketing is catchy, and if true, it might make for an excellent scope. Unfortunately, we know all of the advertising is not 100% legit, therefore we trust none of it to be truth. I think what we must remember is, if it sounds to good to be true, then it probably is. There are a few scopes, while being affordable imports, are still of decent quality for many shooters in the sport. However, because to some people a missed shot can mean a lost life, marketing should honestly reflect purposes of use of the product. I will be getting a Leupold Mk.IV or NightForce soon, and in package form with the BORS system from Barrett. I will be doing a full review/ testing for the combo if anyone else is interested. -PC- There is a huge market for budget optics. There are some pretty decent foreign made budget scopes. |
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Cheap chinese optics geared towards the tacticool crowd. You can find these same scopes under the Sun Vector label for 1/20 the price. This. Take a close look at some of their offerings...especially the knobs and scope bodies used. Save for some minor differences in features, they look eerily similar to offerings from at least a couple other manufacturers. The closer the source to the direct manufacturer, the less expensive they get. I've got a Chinese hobby-grade R/C car that is very similar. Marketed under four names that I know of, with the only difference being graphics and price. If parts can be located in mainland China, they are a fraction of what they sell for under us distributors. A tuned pipe for it in from a US distributor is $45 shipped. The same part from a Chinese distributor, $7 shipped. They seem to make it very hard to get anything direct. ETA: If you want an affordable 50 optic for the absolute lowest price that may survive get a fixed power Super Sniper or 10x Bushnell Elite 3200. |
| thanks but i have decided on nightforce for the 50..nothing else...however looking at all these scopes got me thinking i saw some cheap 2-300$ ones that i dont want to chance on a 50..but on my long range .243.....i might pick one up to replace the 100$ tasco 8-24x40mm i have on it....o ya roughly 10-13weeks till my 50 is done WOOO cant wait. haha |
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thanks but i have decided on nightforce for the 50..nothing else...however looking at all these scopes got me thinking i saw some cheap 2-300$ ones that i dont want to chance on a 50..but on my long range .243.....i might pick one up to replace the 100$ tasco 8-24x40mm i have on it....o ya roughly 10-13weeks till my 50 is done WOOO cant wait. haha SWFA SS fixed power scopes are great for $300. |
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thanks but i have decided on nightforce for the 50..nothing else...however looking at all these scopes got me thinking i saw some cheap 2-300$ ones that i dont want to chance on a 50..but on my long range .243.....i might pick one up to replace the 100$ tasco 8-24x40mm i have on it....o ya roughly 10-13weeks till my 50 is done WOOO cant wait. haha SWFA SS fixed power scopes are great for $300. Mine is holding up and working well on my Steyr 50. Have the 20 power mil-dot. Works nice, holds zero, like that I can loosen set screws after sighting in, and, always returns to true zero. |
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My BOHICA Trashed my counter sniper. Frank gave me no trouble replacing it. I left it on my 223 and my 6.5 and it seems ok. I would not put one on a 50 even though Frank told me he uses one on his barrett. Why did you even buy one? I'm curious why people keep buying the damn things |
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Quoted: Quoted: My BOHICA Trashed my counter sniper. Frank gave me no trouble replacing it. I left it on my 223 and my 6.5 and it seems ok. I would not put one on a 50 even though Frank told me he uses one on his barrett. Why did you even buy one? I'm curious why people keep buying the damn things cool looking ads |
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My BOHICA Trashed my counter sniper. Frank gave me no trouble replacing it. I left it on my 223 and my 6.5 and it seems ok. I would not put one on a 50 even though Frank told me he uses one on his barrett. Why did you even buy one? I'm curious why people keep buying the damn things It's the Bertrillium-Zantitium™ that hooks em! |
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My BOHICA Trashed my counter sniper. Frank gave me no trouble replacing it. I left it on my 223 and my 6.5 and it seems ok. I would not put one on a 50 even though Frank told me he uses one on his barrett. Why did you even buy one? I'm curious why people keep buying the damn things I purchased one for the mere purpose of seeing if it was truly the "unobtanium" it is described as. It did hold up on a .338 LM. I also paid over $700 for it, so it was not a cheap evaluation, as compared to other Chinese optics, and I was commissioned or contracted to test it, but had questions asked to me, regarding if it was decent or not, so I had to see for myself, before making an uneducated guess. They do offer some decent power ranges, but I could not recommend one without further testing. If you can get them for a good deal (<400), and do not mind the deceiving advertising practice they might be alright. The ranging reticle can be used, if you are good at mathematics, and guessing the "known size" of objects, and are not in any hurry to place your shot. A simpler solution would be using a real laser range finder, and getting the job done, which also takes out a degree of human error. For the $700 I paid for a test model, there are a number of scopes which will suit you much, much better. I do remain curious about their "top-of-the-line" Titanium models, and would like to test one, but at a cost equal to USO, or S&B, I have serious doubts about the quality, and availability of such advertised models. Could be they are just advertised to make consumers think they are truly getting a higher-quality scope, from a company who makes better products, who knows. |
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My BOHICA Trashed my counter sniper. Frank gave me no trouble replacing it. I left it on my 223 and my 6.5 and it seems ok. I would not put one on a 50 even though Frank told me he uses one on his barrett. Why did you even buy one? I'm curious why people keep buying the damn things I purchased one for the mere purpose of seeing if it was truly the "unobtanium" it is described as. It did hold up on a .338 LM. I also paid over $700 for it, so it was not a cheap evaluation, as compared to other Chinese optics, and I was commissioned or contracted to test it, but had questions asked to me, regarding if it was decent or not, so I had to see for myself, before making an uneducated guess. They do offer some decent power ranges, but I could not recommend one without further testing. If you can get them for a good deal (<400), and do not mind the deceiving advertising practice they might be alright. The ranging reticle can be used, if you are good at mathematics, and guessing the "known size" of objects, and are not in any hurry to place your shot. A simpler solution would be using a real laser range finder, and getting the job done, which also takes out a degree of human error. For the $700 I paid for a test model, there are a number of scopes which will suit you much, much better. I do remain curious about their "top-of-the-line" Titanium models, and would like to test one, but at a cost equal to USO, or S&B, I have serious doubts about the quality, and availability of such advertised models. Could be they are just advertised to make consumers think they are truly getting a higher-quality scope, from a company who makes better products, who knows. A quick five minute google search could have saved you $700.00. |
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