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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 7/9/2002 5:37:44 AM EST
Curious about advantages and disadvantages of both of these type of optics for flat top AR carbine - mid/long range (200-500 meter) application. Currently using red dot for CQB with great results.

I have a fairly extensive understanding of red dot and standard glass options and applications, but have had no first hand experience with the ACOG or ELCAN optics.

I would like input from experienced users.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 6:03:03 AM EST
I have been using an ACOG (TA01) for 4+ years and love it. Eye relief is almost infinite, meaning not as critical as on other scopes. The newer TA31 may be of interst to you because of the "red dot" type center. Using either a Donut or Triangle center lends itself to fast CQB even with the 4x mag. I have seen 3 ACOGs broken in the field and service from Trijicon was fast and FREE, less shipping. The only Elcan I have shot with was in bad shape from abuse but still was holding zero perfect. I personally prefer the ACOG over the Elcan. Hope this helps...

Link Posted: 7/9/2002 6:52:35 AM EST
I played with an ELCAN during a night shoot recently. I noticed that the ELCAN seemed to require a lot of fidgeting to get a good view, maybe short eye relief. Don't have that much a problem with my TAONSN. Once you got it right it a pretty picture and provided good ID on a target at 20 yds at twilight. My ACOG did a suprisingly good job after dark. I'm not going to rush out and buy an ELCAN based on that limited experience.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 6:58:14 AM EST
Thanks for the input guys
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 7:08:11 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 8:14:03 AM EST
I have and had Elcan, TA31F, TA31A and TA01NSN, and have used them from 100m to 500m, so I guess I am pretty qualified to say something about each scope

In terms of eye relief, they are pretty much the same. I can shoulder and get on target at about the same speed for each of these scope.

Contrary to many people will think, I found the Elcan the most precise among the four, if you are willing to practise. The TA01NSN reticle is simply too busy between 100m and 300m. The BDCs are too fine and get confusing. At the end, I just use the 100m mark to hold off anyways. The Elcan is less stressful to use. Set it at 200m(or 300m) and it will be simple point and shoot. tHe trade off is weight.

The TA31 donut and Chervon are good idea but you need to practise alot to use it. THe problem is that it is always natural to put the centre of the reticle on the target. They are fast to shoot if the target exposes from the belt level and up. Otherwise, you will have to remind yourself to hold off at the proper distance. This is a problem at 200m for me for awhile. I always forgot to aim low in rapid fire. In addition, the fibre optics are too strong and the reticle flares up like a fireball, to the point the reticle loses its detail. I have to coverup the fibre optic with a nlyon cover.



Link Posted: 7/9/2002 8:35:19 AM EST
Hahaha, I had no idea Mall Ninja's were so weel equipped!

I am not in the military or police. I have never shot with a Elcan, but I have shot with about every other type of ACOG there is... Some a little, most a lot. At distances from armslength to 450. In a wide variety of scenarios, in a wide variety of conditions and weather.

My experience differs greatly with greentips. I have never, ever noticed the reticle get so bright it flares. I think the TA31 is about the best all around optic there is.

Many folks complain about the TAO1/nsn reticle. There must be legitimacy to it because I have heard the "too busy" complaint somewhat regularly. I myself think its fine. I have a TAO1nsn and it is a great scope but with limited application. It is not a optic for close quarters.

FWIW, while never having shot a Elcan, I read a lot about them. Complaints are their size, bulk, weight, and mounts. If you get one, get the GenIII mount, other mounts were reportedly not very good. Aparently the GenIII mount solved the problems other ones suffered.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 9:35:28 AM EST
I had an ACOG TAO-1 for a while, but had problems with its eye-relief being WAY too close. Used to get migraines every time I shot it from the damned thing hitting me on the eyebrow over and over and over...
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 10:57:24 AM EST


If you get one, get the GenIII mount, other mounts were reportedly not very good. Aparently the GenIII mount solved the problems other ones suffered.



Most of the complaints orginated from miitary guys who were issued the old mounts. Some of them are not using them properly either( eg, trying to make frequent adjustment to the windage and elevation dial.) I am sure some cdn military guys gonna jump on me and trash the Elcan. All I can say is, I haven't heard or seen anyone having any problem with Gen4 mount sold to the civies. Buy a new one from a dealer and you will be fine.

About the TA01NSN reticle, if the target is tan IPSC, there is no problem. Things start getting tricky with tan and black sihouettes like Cdn Fig 12.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 7:41:16 PM EST
Hi,

kinda new at this AR scoping thyng, i just bought a Colt 6520 that someone (a LEO) removed the original upper (i get the spare upper also) & replaced it wyth an M4 & it currently has the Colt Tactical Optics on it..., where does it fit in wyth the Trijicon, Elcan, EOTech, etc. ?? is it good optics ?

i mainly bought the Carbine for it's collectibility, i may replace the original upper restore the Carbine to it's original config & use the M4 upper & sighting device on a different pre-ban lower....
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 7:55:44 PM EST
well..., it ain't really Mother......, BUT !!

i have been mulling over many different scopes since i caught hell for buying a Leapers..!!

i call her Momma, but she is really my wife, this is her wisdom, last night on FoxNews, my wife saw this news clip of our fighting men in Afghan, she saw the scopes on their rifles & said, "why don't you get one of those scopes, if they are good enuff for our fighting men it damn shure outta be good enuff for you..., right..??"

soooooooo...., i said sheepishly, "yes darlin, but they cost $800..."

her reply; get one !!!!!

so i am..........., recomendations please ? dealer with best price ?
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 12:38:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By CactusJack:
well..., it ain't really Mother......, BUT !!

i have been mulling over many different scopes since i caught hell for buying a Leapers..!!

i call her Momma, but she is really my wife, this is her wisdom, last night on FoxNews, my wife saw this news clip of our fighting men in Afghan, she saw the scopes on their rifles & said, "why don't you get one of those scopes, if they are good enuff for our fighting men it damn shure outta be good enuff for you..., right..??"

soooooooo...., i said sheepishly, "yes darlin, but they cost $800..."

her reply; get one !!!!!

so i am..........., recomendations please ? dealer with best price ?



Sounds like we've both been blessed with ladies cut from the same stock! My wife is so cool about gun and accessory purchases I almost feel guilty...I'll get over it.
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 3:23:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/10/2002 3:27:56 PM EST by ShamusMcOI]
Well I've shot with all four of those scopes.

Personally I think that the best is the ACOG. You can get various powered scopes, and they are just about as quick on target aquisition as the red dot scopes. Especially with the lowered power compact ACOG's. I've got a 1.5X compact with a triangle reticle. The magnification actually seems a bit more than 1.5X. But it is FAST when bringing it up on target. And the triangle reticle makes it easy to use for CQB as well as being capable of pretty accurate shooting as the triange tip is 1.5 MOA. The Aimpoint on the other hand is 3 MOA.

The Elcan is nice, but seems more like a specialty scope for longer ranges. Not as great as the other options as far as adaptability. The ACOG is much better for getting the best of both worlds IMO.

Between the Eotech and the Aimpoint, I like the Eotech much better. It is an awesome scope, and tuff as nails. I've seen icepicks driven through them (with the glass shattered) and you can still get site picture with the illuminated reticle. It's not a powered scope obviously. But the dot on it is (I think) 1.5 MOA which is nice. I think it also has nightvision capability. It would be hands down my second choice after the ACOG. And it costs at least half as much.

Sorry for the novel here, and good luck.


Edited to add that another great thing about the ACOGS is how much light they gather. I've been amazed at how well you can see at night with them. Better than the naked eye for sure. Not quite nightvision. But it is impressive.
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 3:55:37 PM EST
Shamus- no need to apologize for the novel, I am about to make my first red dot style scope purchase, and have found all you guys experience very useful. Keep the real field experience coming before I blow the dough.

One thing I wonder, as an armchair general, is if the Holo type sights like Eotech and OKO are really a better, next generation design, but as the Military has already sunk so much dough into Aimpoints, that they will stick around for quite some time. Not that Aimpoints are bad, but as an armchair general, I think if they can work out any QC problems they have, that an epoxy encased holo plexiglass sight is more durable than a lens based system...
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 5:17:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By ED_P:
Shamus- no need to apologize for the novel, I am about to make my first red dot style scope purchase, and have found all you guys experience very useful. Keep the real field experience coming before I blow the dough.

One thing I wonder, as an armchair general, is if the Holo type sights like Eotech and OKO are really a better, next generation design, but as the Military has already sunk so much dough into Aimpoints, that they will stick around for quite some time. Not that Aimpoints are bad, but as an armchair general, I think if they can work out any QC problems they have, that an epoxy encased holo plexiglass sight is more durable than a lens based system...





I'll tell you what, the Eotech is nothing like any of the other holosights I've seen either. Some of the holosights tend to "wash out" when moving from target to target. I haven't seem them all, but nothing I have seen comes close to the Eotech.
I was very skeptical about them, until I got a chance to check one out in person. I was impressed immediately. They are that good. Clear glass, nice site, and tough. They've been seriously tested, and still work. Like I said, after having an ice pick driven through the glass you still have positive sight picture. And they can be dropped on the concrete (on a rifle) over and over and still work.

I say all this, and don't even own one. Only reason being though is I already have an ACOG.
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 6:00:52 PM EST
I've shot a few ACOGs including ShamusMCOI's, and for a combat scope they are fantastic.

ACOG gets my vote. Trijicon's reflex sights suck, they shouldn't put their name on 'em.

Here is Shamus himself with his ACOG. The photo has been altered to protect the innocent. Ok, well I didn't know if he would want me posting his mug here so I blurred his face and arm.



See how small that ACOG is? The optical quality is right up there with Leupold, Nikon, and dare I say it, Swarowski, PLUS you can use both eyes since the magnification is only 1.5... your dominant eye can handle the difference. The reticle is very bright in sunlight, less so at night but hey, thats what you want so it won't wash out your vision. And NO BATTERIES.
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 7:25:47 PM EST
what is the general opinion of a Trijicon TA-31 ?

and wud you give $650 for one ?? yes, i know MSRP is almost $1,200, but i thynk i found the deal of the decade, i was given the S/N & told to run a check on it if i want, i called Trijicon & they said the scope is warranted for 15 year no mater who owns it......., so i am going to get it....

Shamus,
thanx for the info.......

Gunner1x,
if you thynk that is somthyng, i found a Colt AR-15 A3 Tactical Carbine NIB pre-ban for $5,500 when i told my darlin about it her eyes lit up & said, "get it", by the tyme i got back to the man he left a note: "Sorry, sold it for $5,550"........ ooooh well better luck next tyme......
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 7:48:33 PM EST

Sounds like we've both been blessed with ladies cut from the same stock! My wife is so cool about gun and accessory purchases I almost feel guilty...I'll get over it.


if you thynk that was somthyng get this ! that 6520 i bought, i picked up at the range gun shop, took 40 rnds wyth me & a 20 rnd mag., walked over to the 100 yd. range sniped off the tyrap, opened the rifle, pulled the B.C. back, firing pin installed, chamber & bore clear, close'r up stuff in a 20 rnd mag., chambered a round, took aim, squeezed trigger & "clunk".., pulled charging handle back chambered another rnd. squeezes trigger & "clunk"......

i called my wife & told her i was on my way home..., "the rifle won't fire" i tell her, before i get home she calls the fellow i got the rifle from & nicely reams the poor guy, he calls me a few hours later & tells me he about had a heart attack when he got the message about the rifle not fireing, it was simply that he forgot to install the firing pin retainer pin & when i look at the bolt carrier i missed seeing the missing retainer pin...., they are easy to miss if not looking FOR them.....

he said, "hell'uva woman you got there, most women would not get involved..."

he apologized & said he'd send a new retainer pin, i told him not to bother, he has far more important thyngs to attend to (he's a newly activated Army Reserve Lt. & former LEO in La.) i have spares.....

Link Posted: 7/12/2002 9:01:06 PM EST
I vote for an aimpoint on a quick release mount with flip up iron sights.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 11:10:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By schapman43:
I vote for an aimpoint on a quick release mount with flip up iron sights.


==============================================

is the Aimpoint similar to the Colt C-More system ?

Link Posted: 7/16/2002 1:02:02 PM EST
Since the poll asked what I'd go for in SHTF, I said iron sight only. Less to go wrong. Works ok at night. Doesn't break as easily as glass.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 7:34:23 AM EST
Thanks for the input guys.
I think I'm going with the ACOG
and the EoTech.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 7:42:15 AM EST
Between optics only and irons only, I would go irons only. However, why one over the other??? Optics with back up irons is the way to go! In that case... BAC ACOG any day!

Oh, and while Aimpoint and C-more are both nonmagnified dot type optics, thats about where the similarity ends... Aimpoint is way better than the C-More! More user friendly, tons more durable, C-More is notoriously difficult to zero etc...
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 7:43:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By Redmanfms:
Since the poll asked what I'd go for in SHTF, I said iron sight only. Less to go wrong. Works ok at night. Doesn't break as easily as glass.



That's the way I read it. If I could have ONLY one of the choices, it would be iron sights.

However, a red dot with quality backup iron sights is the way to go!
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