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Posted: 2/11/2014 11:55:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: raf][Edited]
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I've heard IR comments made in reference to dyed clothes and gear before. Comments only, and not yet any pix.
Usually along the lines of "You'll look like a neon light in those dyed clothes!" I lack the equipment to accomplish this experiment, so I'm asking for advice/help here. The reason for asking about this is that a LOT of ACU uniforms and gear will hit the surplus market in the future, as the Mil transitions to other color/pattern uniforms and gear. A lot of surplus buyers will want to dye their uniforms/gear to improve on the ACU pattern, and they should know, in advance of purchase, whether or not dyeing will adversely impact the NV/IR aspects of their items. Here's the set-up: 1) Get a set of (genuine, not copy) USGI ACU fatigues (even a cap), and take a pic under IR light of the original, un-modified item(s). They should not reflect IR in their original state, because they are made to be IR non-reflective. This way, we know for sure we are starting out all right. The Rit dyes most often used are Dark Green, Apple Green (lighter green), and Taupe (brown). 2) Next step is to dye the ACU item(s), and rinse/dry them properly, without ever letting them be exposed to any detergents that have IR or "optical" "Brighteners". Such brighteners will adversely affect even original ACU fatigues. 3) Post pic of dyed item(s), trying to arrange things as nearly identical as possible to the first pic of the undyed ACUs, and we'll see what the IR reflectance level of the dyed ACUs is compared to the verified GTG original ACU item(s). The only way to know, for a certainty, whether or not Rit dye affects the IR reflectance of ACU fatigues is to verify their IR reflectance level prior to dyeing. It may be that dyeing adversely affects IR reflectance, but unless the ACUs are verified to not be buggered-up with non-milspec detergents, it's just guessing. List of approved detergents for GI uniforms in one of my posts below. |
"The M1 Rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised." General George S. Patton Jr.,US Army
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Good idea.
Step 1 is very important. Pre-test the clothing. Surplus military clothing from not very long ago shows up like a crazy in IR. I have a beautiful set of woodland camo that you can see from a hundred yards away in NOD. You wouldn't call it "IR reflective", but its contrast is a mismatch for vegetation in IR light. |
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There was a post here several years ago about clothing and the dye and wash effects.
Vic |
Tactical Night Vision Corporation - TNVC, INC.
http://www.tnvc.com
[email protected]
(909) 796-7000
"Eliminating our adversaries 940nm at a time"
http://www.tnvc.com
[email protected]
(909) 796-7000
"Eliminating our adversaries 940nm at a time"
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Anyone have a link to that old post? I'm curious as to if there is a spray or rinse treatment you can do to reduce or eliminate the effect?
Edit: I found the old post........ http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=18&t=231665 I'm still curious though as to if there is anything to use to reduce the glare effect? |
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Originally Posted By OmegamanX:
Anyone have a link to that old post? I'm curious as to if there is a spray or rinse treatment you can do to reduce or eliminate the effect? I wonder if the Atsko UV killer spray and/or Sports Wash would have any effect? I know they both work well on UV and have tested with black lights. Ahh, black lights, college, and white bras under sweaters....... Takes me back. |
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Link to old, archived post, made hot:http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=18&t=231665&page=1
It's fine for what it is, but does not address the effects (if any) of dyeing otherwise GTG Army ACUs and similar nylon field gear. The main question posed above remains unanswered so far. I don't know if washing GI uniforms in non-spec detergents (the ones with brighteners) permanently alters the uniforms, or if such brighteners will "wash-out" over time. It's also a question if washing such altered uniforms with Sport Wash (or similar) "X" number of times will restore them to original state. That's another experiment. |
"The M1 Rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised." General George S. Patton Jr.,US Army
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Just something to think about:
The problem is more complicated than minimizing the amount of light reflected, Black would be best for that. The problem is to equal the amount of light that your surrounding are reflecting, and night vision makes that a problem because it takes visible and IR light and converts it all to one color. Night vision treats blue, green red and IR in much the same way making them somewhat equally visible to the to the eye by converting them all to green, while the eye left to it's own devices is not very sensitive to blue and red and see's basically no IR. Have you ever noticed that a black strap on a black bag sticks out like a sore thumb with night vision yet looks equally black to the eye, that is most likely because one of them reflects much more IR than the other, the problem is that this is not confined to black alone. Brightness while part of the answer is not the total answer. |
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Originally Posted By raf:
Link to old, archived post, made hot:http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=18&t=231665&page=1 It's fine for what it is, but does not address the effects (if any) of dyeing otherwise GTG Army ACUs and similar nylon field gear. The main question posed above remains unanswered so far. I don't know if washing GI uniforms in non-spec detergents (the ones with brighteners) permanently alters the uniforms, or if such brighteners will "wash-out" over time. It's also a question if washing such altered uniforms with Sport Wash (or similar) "X" number of times will restore them to original state. That's another experiment. Goof find RAF, my search gung foo is lacking, that''s why you get paid the big bucks around here.  Good topic...
Vic Edit here Raf....Sorry, just saw below you quoted me. Soldier Systems a few months back posted a company in the cammo competition selection announcement post (A REAL BIG CAN OF WORMS) that talked about their new cammo that would resist IR deformation after use and washings. They did not give any specific details such as detergents used or to be used, amount of washings etc. One other area of interests I have (been awhile as you can see since I invovled myself with this topic), is the effects of sweat and the salts and other bodily chemicals that HAVE changed IR signatures in both near IR and/or thermal properties that I experimented with. After washings, most IR and thermal properties had changed, but it was uncharted territory; did the wash alone or the combination of the perspiration also play into the end result? |
Tactical Night Vision Corporation - TNVC, INC.
http://www.tnvc.com
[email protected]
(909) 796-7000
"Eliminating our adversaries 940nm at a time"
http://www.tnvc.com
[email protected]
(909) 796-7000
"Eliminating our adversaries 940nm at a time"
|
Originally Posted By TNVC:
Goof find RAF, my search gung foo is lacking, that''s why you get paid the big bucks around here. Good topic...
Vic Originally Posted By TNVC:
Originally Posted By raf:
Link to old, archived post, made hot:http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=18&t=231665&page=1 It's fine for what it is, but does not address the effects (if any) of dyeing otherwise GTG Army ACUs and similar nylon field gear. The main question posed above remains unanswered so far. I don't know if washing GI uniforms in non-spec detergents (the ones with brighteners) permanently alters the uniforms, or if such brighteners will "wash-out" over time. It's also a question if washing such altered uniforms with Sport Wash (or similar) "X" number of times will restore them to original state. That's another experiment. Goof find RAF, my search gung foo is lacking, that''s why you get paid the big bucks around here. Good topic...
Vic I didn't find it, I just hot-linked it. 
For further use, list of approved laundry detergents for GI uniforms: http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/uniforms/laundry-detergents-for-use-with-the-acu-army-combat-uniform.shtml Note that there is no mention of commercial dry cleaning. No telling if such cleaning incorporates optical brighteners, or if it serves to eliminate such if already present. Another unknown. |
"The M1 Rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised." General George S. Patton Jr.,US Army
Ah, it was OmegamanX....Nice find to him! 
Vic |
Tactical Night Vision Corporation - TNVC, INC.
http://www.tnvc.com
[email protected]
(909) 796-7000
"Eliminating our adversaries 940nm at a time"
http://www.tnvc.com
[email protected]
(909) 796-7000
"Eliminating our adversaries 940nm at a time"
|
Originally Posted By OmegamanX:
Yep! It took some searching, but found it! I just forgot to hot link it, I guess. 
I'm wondering if the color renew laundry stuff, I've seen in the past, might work to some degree? I dunno. "Color Renew" sounds like it might have a superabundance of optical brighteners, which is the stuff that makes colors brighter in regular detergents. |
"The M1 Rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised." General George S. Patton Jr.,US Army
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Originally Posted By hugh1:
Just something to think about: The problem is more complicated than minimizing the amount of light reflected, Black would be best for that. The problem is to equal the amount of light that your surrounding are reflecting, and night vision makes that a problem because it takes visible and IR light and converts it all to one color. Night vision treats blue, green red and IR in much the same way making them somewhat equally visible to the to the eye by converting them all to green, while the eye left to it's own devices is not very sensitive to blue and red and see's basically no IR. Have you ever noticed that a black strap on a black bag sticks out like a sore thumb with night vision yet looks equally black to the eye, that is most likely because one of them reflects much more IR than the other, the problem is that this is not confined to black alone. Brightness while part of the answer is not the total answer. Agreed. Looking at different pics online against different backgrounds reveal different effectiveness, especially comparing a desert background vs a forest. http://www.hyperstealth.com/GenIII-NVG/1025880_563591603679013_811447284_o_small.jpg Woodland would be decent in the application above compared to multicam. For a civilian application I think we go overboard and are splitting hairs at times. |
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Bad news. USAF claims that NG detergents with "Optical Brighteners" permanently degrades uniforms under IR, NV, and even low-light naked eye conditions:http://www.vandenberg.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123065881.
Slight googling seems to say that (contrary to the above) these brighteners seem to wash out eventually, but this remains unclear at present. No telling how many washes required to accomplish this task. Some dry cleaning processors incorporate optical brighteners into their chemical mix. Incomplete research indicates these vendors are usually high-end types. OTOH, lower-end vendors might not include brighteners in their mix (cheaper), and prelim research seems to indicate dry cleaning without added brighteners seems to remove, or at least, degrade the effect of optical brighteners already present. Ironically, so does exposing wet clothes to sunlight, as in drying them on a clothesline. TL/DR: DO NOT wash your field stuff with detergents that contain "optical brighteners". |
"The M1 Rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised." General George S. Patton Jr.,US Army
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Well. I read this and thought I would give it a shot. Tonight is the control,tomorrow I'll do the dying and take the experiment pics. NVG is a ITT NVS-14-3. Control top has no IR reflectivity. Control pics:
USGI ACU top in totally blacked out room with no IR illumination: 
USGI ACU top in totally blacked out room with IR illumination from the unit: 
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"Fast is fine,accuracy is final"
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Today I dyed the ACU jacket with RIT Dark green dye.
Before picture: 
Dye and during: 
After,difference in color is A LOT more pronounced in person,I like it: 
Dyed ACU in blacked out room with no illumination and then with IR illumination from the unit: 
Long story short,dying ACUs provides a lot of benefit to the usability of the pattern and RIT dye DOES NOT cause the clothing to glow under IR illumination. TJR |
"Fast is fine,accuracy is final"
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Thanks for performing the test. Seems pretty conclusive to me that Rit Dye does not adversely affect IR properties of otherwise GTG GI uniforms.
As you noted, the result looks much better in real life than in digital photos. Thanks again. |
"The M1 Rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised." General George S. Patton Jr.,US Army
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This is funny shit. Well I'll say this about that. Back in the mid-90's the Team guys in San Diego dyed their OTB BDU's in black Rit. It turned them into this funky gray-black camo. I thought they were just trying to be Pirates or something, but, now I wonder if they were experimenting with NIR suppression. Dunno. You have to add in the fact that they're also soaking wet, so who knows. The thing to remember about all these tests you see on-line is this is one guy, whose been in the bush, for maybe a couple of hours, showing you clean stuff. Sure it's a start point, but as mentioned, add in sweat and dirt, and you might get a different picture. Not to be a dick, but most of the stuff you see posted on line, is some guy out in the bush, for a very limited period of time. Even a weekend outing is really nothing in the scheme of things. When you live in a GP tent, out of a sea bag and rucksack, for 6 weeks, without a bath/shower, and run patrols in your cammies most every day, then you see what shit looks like. I had 3 sets of cammies which I rotated. We did have basic facilities, where we could fresh water rinse everything, hang out to dry, and repeat. But unless it got so dirty it was unusable, like so caked in mud it would rub ya raw, you just kept wearing it. Back then those old rip-stop cammies would wear out long before you had any other issues. I usually tore out the knees on a regular basis. Now today, the cammies are much more durable, and NV is much more widespread, so there is something to this. So yeah were the Team guys on to something back in the day, or what? If nothing else, dying would separate your "field" cammies from garrison/everyday wear. Just like hunters keep their field clothes out in the shed so they don't smell like civilization. |
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I have found, personally, that there are a lot of heavier poplin/twill fabrics in various nations' .mil uniforms that will take on a glow under IR with optical brighteners - but ONLY on the worn parts. Typically the very edges of cuffs, pockets, etc - anything faded from abrasion. It's generally not enough to stand out past a couple of feet so I don't worry about it. A good example would be German fleck field jackets. I have also found that a lot of commercial (Propper, etc) twill (the old "winter weight BDU" type fabric) clothing from the early Multicam period - call it 2007-8 or so - will absolutely GLOW under IR. Ridiculously so. I don't know if it's from detergent or what but it's awful. Almost as bad as the black synthetics that show up white. No idea if it can be corrected with dye or something. Really, if you have NV you just have to dig all your shit out and see what it looks like. |
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Originally Posted By boltcatch: I have found, personally, that there are a lot of heavier poplin/twill fabrics in various nations' .mil uniforms that will take on a glow under IR with optical brighteners - but ONLY on the worn parts. Typically the very edges of cuffs, pockets, etc - anything faded from abrasion. It's generally not enough to stand out past a couple of feet so I don't worry about it. A good example would be German fleck field jackets. I have also found that a lot of commercial (Propper, etc) twill (the old "winter weight BDU" type fabric) clothing from the early Multicam period - call it 2007-8 or so - will absolutely GLOW under IR. Ridiculously so. I don't know if it's from detergent or what but it's awful. Almost as bad as the black synthetics that show up white. No idea if it can be corrected with dye or something. Really, if you have NV you just have to dig all your shit out and see what it looks like. The "glow" was quite remarkable in moonlight. I suppose the same would be true of almost any well-worn fabric. |
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Given this thread is still somehow active, I wanted to add a recent idea I had that someone might be able to test themselves. As a really basic test, I was thinking about taking some white shirts and using something like black rit dye on them to compare the before & after view of the shirts under night vision, or keep one as is to use as a control piece to compare side by side with a dyed shirt. The thing to keep in mind is that normal rit dye only works with natural fibers, with the exception of nylon, and it won't dye anything synthetic like polyester and may have subpar results on a poly-cotton blend. You'll need dyes made for synthetic fabrics like polyester to properly dye it; Two examples in mind are idye poly and rit dyemore, but the latter isn't available in black, only graphite. For any sticklers, the reason I'm suggesting black is it's the easiest to compare with something that isn't nir compliant under night vision. I was thinking about testing this myself when I could eventually get to it, but figured I would leave a reply here and see if anyone wants to try it themselves and share the results. And don't wash the shirts, at least not with detergent, or that could interfere with the results after dying them. |
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