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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 5/12/2003 2:40:18 PM EDT
Took my newly built j&t kit ar15 out for the first time.

None of the rounds would eject. The bolt carrier assembly wasn't retracing after the shot. So I had to pull the charging handle back, and slam the stock onto the ground to eject the spent shell. I had to do this a couple of times, until the stock finaly gave in and collapse (its a non collapsible m4 style stock)

So now I'm stuck with a broken stock, there's a spent shell in my rifle, and the bolt assembly is stuck, it won't budge.

Any idea how to free my assembly? What kind of issue does this sound like? I'd like to see some thoughts/suggestions, and if nothing works I'll be sending this thing back to j&t.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 3:40:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/12/2003 3:44:56 PM EDT by thesacrifice]
I applied a ton of force with a tool while pulling the charging handle and was able to free the assembly. But any idea why the brass isnt ejecting? I pulled the assembly completely out, do I have to put it back in in any special way? I noticed there's a tab near the front of the assembly that can slide to the left or to the center of it, it won't insert into the receiver without moving the tab to the center.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 5:32:32 PM EDT
First of all, what kind of ammo are you shooting? That may help. Second, I could be completely wrong, but it sounds like you may be new to ar15's. I believe what you are referring to as the tab, is the top of the cam pin. Naturally it has to be up top since that is the position it is in when the bolt is out. The bolt will not pass the lugs in the reciever extension, if it is pushed back into the carrier (tab in the left position). Did you build this kit or did someone build it for you. If you are new, check the the proper TM's (technical manuals) or user manual, there should be links to them somewhere on the site. Anyway as to possible problems, usually if the case is getting stuck the chamber really tightly, you either have really bad ammo or the chamber is out of spec and too small. It is possible that the case is being partially ejected and then being rechambered. Rechambering a fired case can cause it to be pretty hard to get back out, since it has already expanded from firing and then gets wedged back in when being rechambered. Still, it should not be so difficult to get back out that it would require you to banged your stock so hard as to break it. Finally, once again I may be reading you completely wrong, but if you broke your stock trying to get a spent casing out of your rifle, it seems to indicate to me you may be a bit mechanically challenged. I mean no offense, but generally being overly hamfisted with a mechanical device to the point you break it, seems to indicate a lack of finesse that helps in these situations. Then again, I could have totally read your post wrong, if so, please accept my appology. Anyway, if you are new, you really need to do some reading up on the ar15 and how it works before you can even start to figure out what is the problem.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 5:51:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/12/2003 5:57:39 PM EDT by brasspile]
Does the bolt move at all when firing (bumps back a bit then back forward??)? My question is, is the bolt carrier contacting the gas tube? If it doesn't budge, the gas tube may not be correctly installed/blocked/bent. If you can easily pull the bolt back with the charging handle, and the spend cartridge would fall out [I am assuming the bolt isn't pulling it out, since you are using some "vertical percussion persuasion"], my first thought is that something is wrong with the gas feed. If the chamber was too tight, you would need to pound the casing out with a cleaning rod from the muzzle end. With the upper receiver open, slide the bolt in (the square "Tab" must be rotated and under the gas pickup (the "goosneck" on the top of the bolt). Manually slide the bolt forward, make sure the bolt's pickup is mating with the gas tube coming from the front of the barrel (should be small tube sticking out above the chamber, top of rifle). If the gas pickup is mating correctly, try spraying canned air into the gas tube (above chamber), see if you can feel any air coming out the muzzle or chamber, or if the air just blows back out of the tube (blocked tube/incorrectly installed tube...) Might want to look at a parts diagram blowup of an AR to see the function and overall way things go together, and a working animation of the process of the AR Function (animations available on the net). It is really fairly simple for a concept, but the details of making the concept work get tricky sometimes... In addition to the failure for the bolt to cycle, there seems to be another issue, the extractor. If you can fire a round, and the casing will come out after opening the bolt with a tap on the ground (well, I guess more than a tap if you broke the stock...), that implies that the extractor (claw) on the bolt may not be correctly assembled (no spring??). Check gas tube and extractor. And, like jason said, if you cannot get it with a bit of finesse, The Bigger Hammer Theory doesn't work well. Good luck! Hope you get it worked out! -- Edited for clarity
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 7:11:26 PM EDT
The assembly doesnt budge at all after firing a shot. And yes I was hitting the stock on the ground with some force but it's not like I was slamming it with brute force. The kit came built, should I send it in to get looked at? It sounds as if the chamber is out of spec. I've emailed j&t and will keep this thread updated with what happens.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 7:44:33 PM EDT
If the bolt didn't budge, and you can easily move it using the charging handle, then I can say with pretty good confidence that both A) the gas feed has an issue (bolt doesn't move), and B) the extractor isn't installed correctly (otherwise when you manually pull the charging handle, it would eject the spent casing). Since you didn't build it, GET IT BACK TO WHO DID BUILD IT! You may have to pay for a new stock, since that is due to 'user intervention', and possibly a new bolt (depending on what 'tool' was used to free its motion...). Send it back, make sure they test fire it before returning it to you. Ask for a proof target. When you do get it back, before trying to fire it, put a loaded mag in, operate the charging handle, then, WITHOUT FIRING, operate the charging handle again. You should get a nice fresh shell out of the rifle. If not, send it back again. If the first test works, and you fire it, and it doesn't eject, drop the live mag, and send it directly back to who built it, leave EMPTY casing in chamber. The builder will be able to better figure out the problem that way. I still recommend you to find/view an animation of how the AR functions, as well as a blow-up diagram for the overall concept/construction. You will be tinkering with this alot for fun [read "enhancements"], you will also save much on gunsmith fees. If you can't find the animations and assembly diagrams from Google, email me and I will get you some links. Good luck, let me know how it works out!
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 8:45:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/12/2003 8:46:45 PM EDT by thesacrifice]
I ran to home depot and purchased a wooden dowl and pounded the freaking shell out. There is definitely something strange, perhaps all these problems were because of a poor ammo choice, attached is a picture of the shell I pounded out. [img]http://www.oddshaped.com/kevin/ammo.jpg[/img] I was able to fix the stock, well kind of, there's still a rip in the plastic but it's extended and locked again. I'll buy some new ammo and try again tomorrow, after that its getting sent back.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 10:11:51 PM EDT
It looks to me like you fired a .223 cartridge in an AR barrel chambered for 7.62X39
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 10:39:16 PM EDT
Email response from j&t. Note that this isn't the complete email, and the the rest of the email has very kind words from Jesse at j&t wanting to resolve my issue, anyways here's what he had to say. "More than likely you've gotten one of the first barrels that came back from being parkerized. On those barrels there is a bit of build-up in the chamber. This can be easily solved by taking a chamber brush, installing on a cleaning rod section, chucking into a drill and run the brush in and out of the chamber for approximately 10-15 seconds. We did not realize that this problem had occurred until after a few had already been shipped. "
Link Posted: 5/13/2003 2:43:22 AM EDT
The picture indicates something far more wrong than a dirty (parked) chamber. I would sure get that chamber checked out before I shot it again.
Link Posted: 5/13/2003 3:13:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/13/2003 3:22:18 AM EDT by brasspile]
Can you take another photo of that cartridge with a ruler beside it? Metric side showing? It definitely looks like you are firing in a chamber for 7.62. Definitely not an issue about parkerized barrel. Might wanna also check your barrel for damage from a small bullet 'bouncing' around in a large bore (2.1mm freeplay?) How many shots were fired like this? Rule of thumb: If you fire a shot, and the spent casing looks very different from the cartridge that went in (less bullet, of course)(brass diameter, scrapes, crimps, primer, bulges, etc..), then stop shooting, check out the problem. BEFORE SHOOTING AGAIN, Look at the stamps (writing) on upper and receiver, make sure it is for 5.56mm (.223) Ammo, and not 7.62x39 or .308 chambered. I wouldn't try firing it until I had the correct ammo, and even then after what has happened, I would rather send it back for a full checkover first. Trials like this are the best teacher! Send it back, have them thoroughly inspect it. Good Luck! -- Edited typos
Link Posted: 5/13/2003 8:45:10 AM EDT
I gotta agree with everyone else. It sure looks like you managed to feed a 5.56x45 round into a 7.62 x 39 chamber. The bolt did not function because once the bullet started rattling down the bore, the pressures dropped to nothing, so the ga ssystem had nothing to work with. The extractor would not pull the case from the chamber because the bolt and extractor are probably for 7.62x39 and the extractor will not reach the extraction groove of 5.56x45 case. And the case grabs the chamber pretty firmly because it probably had to be forced in to get the bolt to close. Was your rifle supposed to be 5.56 NATO? If yes, they delivered the wrong rifle. If they were supposed to deliver a 7.62x39, try using 7.62x39. It might work great...
Link Posted: 5/13/2003 8:12:38 PM EDT
Phew the boards back up, you guys are assuming exactly what I am assuming. I emailed J&T the following picture saying that I think they sent me a 7.62 barrel instead of a 5.56 and the response was this: "I wouldn't think that you would have been sent a 7.62x39 barrel, nor would I think that if this had happened that you would be able to fire a .223 round through it, but the pic that you attached looks just like that. If you wouldn't mind, return that upper to us and we'll take a look at it and get a replacement out to you ASAP. I apologize for the problems that you're having but we'll get everything taken care of and get you back up and running shortly. Thanks, Jesse" Here's the picture, you can clearly see the 5.56 ammo has been reshaped into an AK round [img]http://www.oddshaped.com/kevin/ammo3.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 5/13/2003 10:20:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By j3_: Looks like the bolt is a 223 or it would have blown out some at the bottom.
View Quote
nope, the case is thicker in back. looks like you got a 7.62x39 barrel, what bolt is anypone's guess from this side of my monitor.
Link Posted: 5/13/2003 10:45:11 PM EDT
After seeing the photo of the fires case between the .223 and 7.62x39 I was wondering what the barrel bore diameter is? Is it a 22 or 308 bore? Just wondering. Glad that J&T are going to fix it.
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 6:59:38 PM EDT
Wow, its amazing how ductile brass can be. It looks like you definitely got a 7.62x39 barrel by accident, there should be markings on the barrel in front of the front sight that say what the barrel is chambered for, at least it is that way on colt and BM rifles. At least the brass didn't blow out on you, would have ended up with a blown up rifle instead. It sounds like J&T will take care of you which is good. I am curious to know if the bolt is for 5.56 or 7.62. Does the bolt hold a 5.56 case snugly. If it is a 7.62 bolt, the base of the casing should have room to move around on the bolt face and the extractor will not hold it on. My guess is that you do have a 5.56 bolt, that when the 5.56 case was chambered, the extractor snapped over the rim of the case and held the base of the case against the bolt so the firing pin could reach the primer. If it was a 7.62 bolt, I would think that the case would be have too much room to move around in the chamber allowing for the firing pin to not be capable of contacting the primer, but I could be wrong. If it is a 5.56 bolt, the chances for catastrophic failure are even greater, since the bolt lugs will not overlap completely, but it looks like it held. Make sure J&T replaces the whole upper including bolt and carrier, since the bolt could be damaged if it is a 5.56 bolt.
Link Posted: 5/15/2003 6:36:33 AM EDT
It's obvious that J&T doesn't check headspace on complete uppers or test fire complete rifles. Isn't that standard operating procedure for a reputable company?
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 1:02:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By FullAutoM4gery: It's obvious that J&T doesn't check headspace on complete uppers or test fire complete rifles. Isn't that standard operating procedure for a reputable company?
View Quote
Yes. What an amazing (and horrible) mistake.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 4:53:40 AM EDT
If it was the wrong barrel/chamber I would think that J&T would do much better than simple replacement. In my opinion, what they sent you was a very dangerous peice of equipment that could have caused serious injury. I would hope that J&T would be willing to give you a very deep discount on a new upper.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 5:21:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/17/2003 5:23:01 PM EDT by thesacrifice]
they're scheduled to receive the upper wed, we'll see what they do. But hey who wouldn't mind a discount or free stuff *cough skeleton stock, *cough some kind of rail system *cough crome barrel cough* although I'd very much welcome some cash back...that would put a pistol within purchase range. haha either way I just want to get out and shoot...and will keep this thread up to date with all the findings etc
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 8:12:23 PM EDT
thesacrifice, If you were able to get a 1/4" wooden dowel through the barrel, then it can't be a .223 bore. Pretty scary stuff.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 11:00:27 PM EDT
hehe never said it was a 1/4" dowel :)
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 5:05:40 AM EDT
Could not help myself so had to try it. I have ar's in .308, 7.62 and 5.56/223. The problem cannont be a .308 chamber. When droped in a .308 chamber the 5.56 seats so deep there is no way for the firing pin to strike the primer. A 7.62x39 chamber is another story. When droped into a 7.62 chamber the 5.56 round stops .250" or so from being fully seated. Did some measuring to determine wher the 5.56 round was hiting the chamber. It strikes on the taper. Pulled a bullet from a 5.56 round, again droped the round in the chamber and then released the bolt. Bolt forced the brass into the chamber, trigger press, primer fired. Sounds as if you have a 7.62 upper. Question for thesacrifice is how the weapon was charged. The results of my experiment were indicate that if it was locked bolt, insert mag, press bolt release a 7.62 upper will chamber a 5.56 round. Does anyone know if this vendor offers a upper in this caliber?
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 9:30:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By thesacrifice: hehe never said it was a 1/4" dowel :)
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What size was it then? [:)]
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 10:36:42 PM EDT
j&t got my upper today, as thought they confirmed it was a 7.62 upper and are sending me the correct one via 3 day fedex
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 4:32:36 PM EDT
I will always check my new firearms or parts over with a very fine comb from now on. Usually I'll break it down, put my lube on it and reassemble. After reading this post, I'm going to go into much more detail. I never thought I would have to make sure I have the right chambering. I feel thesacrifice is lucky to have all of his fingers and both eyes still in his head. I would definitly seek some kind of restitution, either product or some other type.
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