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Posted: 2/15/2017 9:38:51 PM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jBoy723:
This thread delivers!! Thank LTC Lutz for taking the time to post all of the information. |
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Posted: 2/16/2017 12:06:52 AM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By eddiein1984:
The A2 handguard is the only part of the A2 that I would consider an upgrade over the A1. And the stock being stronger |
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MT, USA
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Posted: 2/16/2017 1:01:25 AM EST
[#3]
Lt. Col. Lutz thank you for the wealth of information. And thank you for your service. This is a great topic. I really like the A2 stock and handguard but prefer a detachable carry handle and and a denubbed A2 grip.
But I hold a special place in my heart for classic A1 rifles. The are truly things of beauty. |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 2/16/2017 12:25:46 PM EST
[#4]
What a treasure of information here!
When I first shot a M16 a long time ago and pretty dang far away, the A1 grip was the least of my worries. Personally I find the A1, A2, both perfectly acceptable, but my favorite is the original Hogue with finger grooves, even with bloody hands. It just fits me flawlessly. I can completely forget about it and concentrate on the trigger finger. 
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NH, USA
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Posted: 2/16/2017 1:09:50 PM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MattNificent:
A2 with the nub ground off for me...although i do like the rubbery ergo type grips.. Interesting. I've never even noticed the finger 'nub' on my ARs, and I have A2 grips on a half-dozen of them (including my 'pre-ban' A1 carbine). I wonder what you guys are going with your grips to have it bother you. |
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Posted: 2/16/2017 3:37:17 PM EST
[#6]
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Posted: 2/16/2017 3:53:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: MikeE23666]
[#7]
When ever an A2 thread pops up the most common complaint is that "nub" on the A2 grip.
The area from the nub to the trigger guard fits my middle finger perfectly. Over the years I'd buy other grips because sometimes they seem to be more aesthetically pleasing. But I always go back to the A2 grip. |
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Posted: 2/16/2017 4:14:36 PM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JayC:
Interesting. I've never even noticed the finger 'nub' on my ARs, and I have A2 grips on a half-dozen of them (including my 'pre-ban' A1 carbine). I wonder what you guys are going with your grips to have it bother you. They probably grip it like a typical deer rifle stock, which is low and gives the trigger finger the most reach. Instead of grabbing it high and tight like a pistol. *insert Trump hands joke* |
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WI, USA
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Posted: 2/16/2017 5:14:47 PM EST
[#9]
I like A2 grips. Although A1's aren't bad. I think I like A2's better. The biggest downfall to either of them is it doesn't cover up the cheese grater in front of them. But some of the aftermarket ones don't either. I guess you just stick some gum in there.
A1 stock is best stock. 
As far as zeroing and such, I love the A2 sights. I actually zero at 25 meters, 4 clicks up. And then if I'm shooting at 25 meters I'm right on and closer shots are good to go. If I'm shooting at 50 and a 100 I have the option of lowering it and having a POI sight picture. Or close to it..... Or I'll just use a 6 oclock hold at 100. Which I've only done once. But with a carbine it's better for my eyes than a top of post hold at that distance. A rifle is better to just do a top of post POI because I can still see the targets fairly well. It makes sense to give the soldier a rifle that can be useful to long distances. Just like with a battle rifle. And there have been reports by people that even with M855 and an M4 barrel length, it will do it's job at a fair poke. Well past the zero of A1 sights. I know of at least one guy that has said that and also read about it in an Article about the Army SDMR's. Anyways.... great thread. Great guns. Thanks for your input and hard work Cold Blue!!!!!! |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 8:15:16 AM EST
[#10]
While evaluating the potential consequences of the A2 changes and improvements, I kept being able to easily un-do them per your current circumstances. Like being able to replace the longer A2 stock with the shorter A1. Change back to the round front sight post to the square A2. Replace the 3-round burst trigger mechanism with a standard A1 trigger mech. Etc. So if the finger rest on the A2 grip is a gripe, take out you knife and carve the thing off. And if you have sand paper, smooth it off.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/17/2017 12:08:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: mcantu]
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By coldblue:
While evaluating the potential consequences of the A2 changes and improvements, I kept being able to easily un-do them per your current circumstances. Like being able to replace the longer A2 stock with the shorter A1. Change back to the round front sight post to the square A2. Replace the 3-round burst trigger mechanism with a standard A1 trigger mech. Etc. So if the finger rest on the A2 grip is a gripe, take out you knife and carve the thing off. And if you have sand paper, smooth it off. was any consideration given to wearing body armor and how this would affect length of pull? I know that the PASGT helmet and flak were being issued right around the time the A2 was being developed. I think that one of the biggest 'mind-blown' parts of this thread is that the A2 flash hider is made to be timed for right/left handed use and that the factory 12 o'clock position is not necessarily the best one |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 1:04:17 PM EST
[#12]
After decades of handling and carrying the guns, never had any issues with either A1 or A2 grip.
CD |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:06:00 PM EST
[#13]
Why was the 3 round burst selected as opposed to 2 or 5?
Were tests carried out? And why was the non-resetting cam chosen? Thanks for an excellent thread! |
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ITA
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Posted: 2/17/2017 2:45:43 PM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By feudist:
Why was the 3 round burst selected as opposed to 2 or 5? Were tests carried out? And why was the non-resetting cam chosen? Thanks for an excellent thread! 3 round burst seems the best compromise.. You can double tap fast and easily in semiauto.. 4 or 5 burst would be harder to control. The non resetting feature is quite annoying.. But I guess they tried to keep The FCG as simple as possible. |
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Posted: 2/17/2017 3:58:24 PM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JJREA:
I like A2 grips. Although A1's aren't bad. I think I like A2's better. The biggest downfall to either of them is it doesn't cover up the cheese grater in front of them. But some of the aftermarket ones don't either. I guess you just stick some gum in there. I've been using these for years and it's one of the best upgrades I've ever made. It's the Ergo Gapper. 
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FL, USA
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Posted: 2/17/2017 4:12:32 PM EST
[#16]
I keep going back to the real Colt A2 grip. It's fatter and is a chalky grey when new. The knock off A2 grips suck.
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WI, USA
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Posted: 2/17/2017 5:54:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: JJREA]
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jBoy723:
I've been using these for years and it's one of the best upgrades I've ever made. It's the Ergo Gapper. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/168966/ergo-gapper-148492.jpg Thank you. Where did you get that? I hate this. This happened to me once before. We start talking about the nub and now I notice it and don't like it. LOL. I went out and bought an MOE grip just to see. Plus I wanted to try the more vertical ness of it. I was gonna try a BCM one but couldn't find one at my LGS or Gander. I might have to try one of them. I think they do fill that little space in, like the TD's do. I don't like the older style Tango downs though. They seem all wrong at the back end. Although I see they make a more vertical one now too. |
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Posted: 2/18/2017 4:30:45 PM EST
[#18]
You asked:
Why was the 3 round burst selected as opposed to 2 or 5? Best test data from the 70's Army was for the 3-round, especially at night. Were tests carried out? I found test reports from the 70's were in the Picatinny archives and this gave creditability to the concept. And why was the non-resetting cam chosen? Because it was the design (Colt's) that was part of their test program weapons with good test results and an existing/proven design (i.e., low risk). I know the 3-RBC has its issues, but it prevented the A2 from being a semi-auto only battle rifle, which it was to be until i found the 3-RBC and ran it up the flag pole as a compromise. |
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Posted: 2/18/2017 4:35:07 PM EST
[#19]
@ankratz
Look for an H&R A1 grip, some of them are massive compared to Colt grips, but look the same. I have one and love it. |
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Posted: 2/18/2017 4:42:21 PM EST
[#20]
@ankratz
H&R on left, Colt on the right. They feel totally different. 
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Posted: 2/18/2017 4:49:41 PM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By coldblue:
You asked: Why was the 3 round burst selected as opposed to 2 or 5? Best test data from the 70's Army was for the 3-round, especially at night. Were tests carried out? I found test reports from the 70's were in the Picatinny archives and this gave creditability to the concept. And why was the non-resetting cam chosen? Because it was the design (Colt's) that was part of their test program weapons with good test results and an existing/proven design (i.e., low risk). I know the 3-RBC has its issues, but it prevented the A2 from being a semi-auto only battle rifle, which it was to be until i found the 3-RBC and ran it up the flag pole as a compromise. |
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Posted: 2/18/2017 6:33:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: FreefallRet]
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GSL:
I'm all for enhancing your issued weapon, so long as you don't go full retard and return it to as issued when it's time to return it to the Arms Room. The retards up higher have heart attacks if their BN's or BDE's has an M4 or an A4 out of uniform while being inspected during a CIP periodically. |
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Posted: 2/18/2017 6:34:27 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By coldblue:
In fact, Colt had a similar "heartburn" as well, as we brought our designs to the table, like the square front sight post, pistol grip, etc. At a meeting with them subsequent to our submitting my pistol grip samples, they awarded me this memento: 
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Posted: 2/18/2017 6:53:39 PM EST
[#24]
LTC Lutz,
When you are working a program like this is there pressure to reduce the complexity of the system? It occurred to me that many of the changes that have been made over the years have changed the parts count, but if you reduce the parts count you emphasize the differences between models. So if I found a way to reduce the parts count by, say, 14 parts by using a monolithic upper I would reduce the complexity of the rifle by a lot, but I would also reduce the percent of parts that are the same. Was that a factor at all in this design? |
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Posted: 2/18/2017 7:25:31 PM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By coldblue:
And why was the non-resetting cam chosen? Because it was the design (Colt's) that was part of their test program weapons with good test results and an existing/proven design (i.e., low risk). I know the 3-RBC has its issues, but it prevented the A2 from being a semi-auto only battle rifle, which it was to be until i found the 3-RBC and ran it up the flag pole as a compromise. I certainly thank you for that (in red) Was the "semi auto battle rifle" intent to limit ammunition expenditure from a cost perspective? Or was it more of an "it was good enough with the Garand, it's good enough now" thing? |
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USA
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Posted: 2/18/2017 8:13:09 PM EST
[#26]
Many of us have been AR owners/operators for longer than anybody in the military could have been unless they stayed in 40 years and were in the combat arms the whole time. We have more range time and have fired more rounds than the great majority of military or police for that matter. As for me, I've often wondered why an aftermarket pistol grip even exists. Unfortunately I can't compare the A2 grip to the original because I've never touched one of those, but not having big, fat hands that are looking for a pistol hammer to be bit by, I probably would like the original grip. I say that because when I'm not shooting, the A2 grip with the duckbill kind of bothers me - but when shooting, I never think about it. So, I also never think about replacing it. I've never seen any aftermarket grip that interested me at all and I don't even need to have the extra material on the back of the grip that they all seem to have to fill in the curve at the back of the receiver. I really don't know why that exists either.
What ever happened to just using the rifle as it is and getting used to it? |
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Posted: 2/18/2017 11:47:01 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JJREA:
Thank you. Where did you get that? I hate this. This happened to me once before. We start talking about the nub and now I notice it and don't like it. LOL. I went out and bought an MOE grip just to see. Plus I wanted to try the more vertical ness of it. I was gonna try a BCM one but couldn't find one at my LGS or Gander. I might have to try one of them. I think they do fill that little space in, like the TD's do. I don't like the older style Tango downs though. They seem all wrong at the back end. Although I see they make a more vertical one now too. Is cheese grating the new grip zone obnoxiousness? |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 2/18/2017 11:49:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: ArmyInfantryVet]
[#28]
USMC screwed us all buy going to the A2.
And the elevation adjustment turret on the rear sight is the most gosh dang useless thing. I've never fucked with it, and never seen anyone fuck with it. So it was just a waste. |
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Posted: 2/19/2017 6:22:06 AM EST
[#29]
Great, informative thread. Thanks for all your personal input Coldblue.
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FL, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2017 6:35:26 AM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
USMC screwed us all buy going to the A2.
And the elevation adjustment turret on the rear sight is the most gosh dang useless thing. I've never fucked with it, and never seen anyone fuck with it. So it was just a waste. That's because you are a soldier. I as a Marine thank Col.Lutz for the fine rifle he helped create ! ?? |
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Posted: 2/19/2017 8:04:02 AM EST
[#31]
You asked:
LTC Lutz, When you are working a program like this is there pressure to reduce the complexity of the system? It occurred to me that many of the changes that have been made over the years have changed the parts count, but if you reduce the parts count you emphasize the differences between models. So if I found a way to reduce the parts count by, say, 14 parts by using a monolithic upper I would reduce the complexity of the rifle by a lot, but I would also reduce the percent of parts that are the same. Was that a factor at all in this design? There was some concern with the increased number of parts in the 3-RBC, but when tested side by side with the M16A1 baseline weapons (six each) it was more reliable. But that was likely because you could not simulate the M16A1's infamous "29th round stoppage" while on a long full auto burst with the A2. On parts count, I knew that was going to be an issue, but I was ready for it. And it was all in the A2 handguard "halves. You see, there were dozens of rivets in the A1 handguards that the A2's did not. So the A1 could be shown to actually have more parts... On major part changes like monolithic receivers, no, that was not considered at end game decision time. Thank you for your interest. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2017 3:08:34 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By patrick10w:
this the a2 sucks compared to the a1 Everything A2 sucks, compared to the A1. Exception being the handguards. Those are fine, IMO. |
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IA, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2017 3:25:54 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1saxman:
Many of us have been AR owners/operators for longer than anybody in the military could have been unless they stayed in 40 years and were in the combat arms the whole time. We have more range time and have fired more rounds than the great majority of military or police for that matter. As for me, I've often wondered why an aftermarket pistol grip even exists. Unfortunately I can't compare the A2 grip to the original because I've never touched one of those, but not having big, fat hands that are looking for a pistol hammer to be bit by, I probably would like the original grip. I say that because when I'm not shooting, the A2 grip with the duckbill kind of bothers me - but when shooting, I never think about it. So, I also never think about replacing it. I've never seen any aftermarket grip that interested me at all and I don't even need to have the extra material on the back of the grip that they all seem to have to fill in the curve at the back of the receiver. I really don't know why that exists either. What ever happened to just using the rifle as it is and getting used to it? Sometimes you have to dance with the girl you brought. I tend to agree with you 1Saxman. Although, now that I am using my own AR and not Uncle Sam's, I tend to swap parts until I find the ones I like the best. The first casualty on my personal AR's are the grips and trigger guard. That does not mean the A1 or A2 grip was wrong for me, I can use them all day long if I have to. kwg |
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Posted: 2/19/2017 4:20:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: gunnut003]
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Green2Blue30:
Everything A2 sucks, compared to the A1. Exception being the handguards. Those are fine, IMO. That's because the A2 Handguards were around when the M16 was adopted, in one form or another, the "A1"s were just selected over the "A2"s at the time.
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MI, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2017 4:50:10 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By alexfiggy:
That's because you are a soldier. I as a Marine thank Col.Lutz for the fine rifle he helped create ! ?? No, I figured out a much faster system. It's call Kentucky windage. We all used it. We saw where our bullets hit and adjusted our aim off that. Way quicker than playing with a dumb elevation turret. |
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Posted: 2/19/2017 5:01:41 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
No, I figured out a much faster system. It's call Kentucky windage. We all used it. We saw where our bullets hit and adjusted our aim off that. Way quicker than playing with a dumb elevation turret. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
Originally Posted By alexfiggy:
That's because you are a soldier. I as a Marine thank Col.Lutz for the fine rifle he helped create ! ?? No, I figured out a much faster system. It's call Kentucky windage. We all used it. We saw where our bullets hit and adjusted our aim off that. Way quicker than playing with a dumb elevation turret. |
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WI, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2017 5:55:14 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GSL:
How on earth are you getting "cheese grated" there? Is cheese grating the new grip zone obnoxiousness? Probably a poor choose of words. The ridges that flank either side of the winter trigger guard, right in front of the grip, can dig into your middle finger when holding the gun with just your firing hand. Do you know what I mean? |
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Posted: 2/19/2017 6:26:47 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JJREA:
Probably a poor choose of words. The ridges that flank either side of the winter trigger guard, right in front of the grip, can dig into your middle finger when holding the gun with just your firing hand. Do you know what I mean? |
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Posted: 2/19/2017 7:01:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: Wangstang]
[#39]
ColdBlue,
Reference the commentary quoted below... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
No, I figured out a much faster system. It's call Kentucky windage. We all used it. We saw where our bullets hit and adjusted our aim off that. Way quicker than playing with a dumb elevation turret. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
Originally Posted By alexfiggy:
That's because you are a soldier. I as a Marine thank Col.Lutz for the fine rifle he helped create ! ?? No, I figured out a much faster system. It's call Kentucky windage. We all used it. We saw where our bullets hit and adjusted our aim off that. Way quicker than playing with a dumb elevation turret. Originally Posted By GSL:
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
Originally Posted By alexfiggy:
That's because you are a soldier. I as a Marine thank Col.Lutz for the fine rifle he helped create ! ?? No, I figured out a much faster system. It's call Kentucky windage. We all used it. We saw where our bullets hit and adjusted our aim off that. Way quicker than playing with a dumb elevation turret. ...Is it safe to assume that your concept with the adjustable elevation in the A2 would be to provide a fighting unit a distinct advantage over 'Kentucky Windage' in the following situations:
*A unit that intended to approach and engage an opposing combat unit from distance and had time to prep before engagement occurred ....All the while leaving the 300m concept in the design to so that the zero could be set and left alone when a soldier didn't have prep time or would be walking into an unknown engagement? To me, many of the guys who are saying the A2 sight system was of no use failed to understand what kind of combat we were planning for with the Russians in a stand off in Europe as well as engagements in places like Korea. |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 8:22:33 AM EST
[#40]
...you don't want to use Kentucky Elevation (I actually refer to this as Tennessee Elevation) when acting as a Base of Fire at a know range...and responding to a Fire Command:
Such as a Squad laying a Base of Fire for the other two platoon squads: Squad! Direct front. Farm house in the open. Range 600 meters. Slow fire. On my command.... |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 2/20/2017 8:40:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: ArmyInfantryVet]
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By coldblue:
...you don't want to use Kentucky Elevation (I actually refer to this as Tennessee Elevation) when acting as a Base of Fire at a know range...and responding to a Fire Command: Such as a Squad laying a Base of Fire for the other two platoon squads: Squad! Direct front. Farm house in the open. Range 600 meters. Slow fire. On my command.... Since when is SBF supposed to be treated like scout snipers? These are automatic weapons....... not bolt action rifles where you miss your chance by the time you cycle the bolt again. And from personal experience, it only took me a couple rounds before I got my SAW exactly on target, on a objective that was about 600-700 meters away. |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 10:46:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: Wangstang]
[#42]
ColdBlue,
Two questions related to the Burnton Bump... 1) Any reason it wasn't skeletonized or hollowed out to reduce weight? 2) ZM weapons designed there own forging in the late 90s which moved the forward assist up to the Burnton Bump so that the forward assist ended up taking up less area and was more forward of the shooters face when shooting left handed. Any reason this wasn't done with the A2? 
Thanks again for the insight. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 12:48:06 AM EST
[#43]
A1 is the best one.
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ITA
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Posted: 2/21/2017 2:15:30 AM EST
[#44]
What is The "infamous 29th round stoppage" ?
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:21:01 AM EST
[#45]
Allow me to amend this. I forgot an important element:
Squad! Direct front. Farm house in the open. Range 600 meters. RIFLEMEN ONLY. Slow fire. On my command... In other words, I would not always use up the SAW gunners ammo (or immediately disclose their positions) for a BOF, situation and ammo resupply dependent... 29th round stoppage was due to follower bounce at the end of a long burst. Hi-speed x-ray films showed the last 3 or 4 rounds literally floating around under the lips as the follower retreated down into the magazine as the carrier mover rearwards... |
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ITA
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:38:31 AM EST
[#46]
^^^
Thankyou. I guess its something that could have been fixed with stronger mag springs and slower ROF, or I'm missing something? |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 11:20:22 AM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JJREA:
Thank you. Where did you get that? I hate this. This happened to me once before. We start talking about the nub and now I notice it and don't like it. LOL. I went out and bought an MOE grip just to see. Plus I wanted to try the more vertical ness of it. I was gonna try a BCM one but couldn't find one at my LGS or Gander. I might have to try one of them. I think they do fill that little space in, like the TD's do. I don't like the older style Tango downs though. They seem all wrong at the back end. Although I see they make a more vertical one now too. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JJREA:
Originally Posted By jBoy723:
I've been using these for years and it's one of the best upgrades I've ever made. It's the Ergo Gapper. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/168966/ergo-gapper-148492.jpg Thank you. Where did you get that? I hate this. This happened to me once before. We start talking about the nub and now I notice it and don't like it. LOL. I went out and bought an MOE grip just to see. Plus I wanted to try the more vertical ness of it. I was gonna try a BCM one but couldn't find one at my LGS or Gander. I might have to try one of them. I think they do fill that little space in, like the TD's do. I don't like the older style Tango downs though. They seem all wrong at the back end. Although I see they make a more vertical one now too. I bought the (6) pack directly from Ergo if I recall correctly. I want to say it was around $10 dollars but, I'm sure the bigger vendors have them as well so, if you plan on ordering parts soon, you can maximize your shipping costs. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:16:37 PM EST
[#48]
Coldblue, was the Colt 727 one of the projects that you were involved in?
If so, was the 727 the orginal M4? |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 7:36:43 AM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wangstang:
ColdBlue, Two questions related to the Burnton Bump... 1) Any reason it wasn't skeletonized or hollowed out to reduce weight? 2) ZM weapons designed there own forging in the late 90s which moved the forward assist up to the Burnton Bump so that the forward assist ended up taking up less area and was more forward of the shooters face when shooting left handed. Any reason this wasn't done with the A2? http://modernfirearms.net/userfiles/images/assault/as97/z-m_lr300axl.jpg Thanks again for the insight. ? |
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