

Thank You!
Not many people know about those Studies done from 1991 when I retired from the Marines, till the end of 1994 when I went to work for KAC. |
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ColdBlue sends...
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I'm with those that like the A1/A2 grips. The only reason that I haven't changed out my last two remaining "aftermarket grips" is because I'm too lazy to re-krylon one and the ergo grip seems to work better on my pistol build. All of my other rifles wear A1/A2 grips.
Of the M16A1 and A2 setups overall I vastly prefer the A1/XM177/Gau-5 series of weapon(s). My experience started with an A2 in training, back-stepped to GAU-5's and GUU-5's for operations, and then later to the M-4 (which at the time I detested). I'm glad that they have so many aftermarket grips out there for the rest of you though. That way I get cheap and free grips! edit: After reading the full thread I think it is most likely the most informative thread I've ever found on arfcom. |
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Coldblue I have another question for you. On the A1 series apertures the bevel/scallop seems to be facing out towards the target with the flush/flat side of the aperture facing the shooter, and opposite on the A2? So... why?
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I'm curious, coldblue, as to what development lead to the A2 flash hider from the A1?
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Originally Posted By cj3waker:
Coldblue I have another question for you. On the A1 series apertures the bevel/scallop seems to be facing out towards the target with the flush/flat side of the aperture facing the shooter, and opposite on the A2? So... why? View Quote Every M14 I had been issued previously had the parkerization of its rear flat face of its aperture rubbed completely off. (Seems to my memory they were also finely checkered as well, I assume to “matte” its appearance.) So when on the requalification range, we had to “smoke” them with carbide lamps to reduce the glare off their worn shinny surface to enhance our sight picture. I wanted the rear of the A2 to be concave to help prevent such non-reflective finish wear from rubbing or friction with cleaning brushes, etc. I know it looks backwards to some folk’s but for my intent is worked pretty well. |
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ColdBlue sends...
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Originally Posted By Blain:
I'm curious, coldblue, as to what development lead to the A2 flash hider from the A1? View Quote I lucked-out. Something very similar was installed on a rack of test rifles stored in Picatinny’s bunker. These were the same rack of weapons where I found the original “4-Position Burst Controls” installed. The muzzle brakes on those rifles was adjustable for left or right-handed shooters by lifting a stout leaf spring and indexing it is the appropriated marked “L” or “R” notched washed trapped between the muzzle brake and the barrel. This design was a little too expensive to copy exactly for my A2 program; and some considered it a “moving part” that could adversely affect reliability; as well as adding two new parts to the assembly. But the muzzle brake’s positive effect on muzzle rise was demonstrable, as well as its closed bottom reducing position disclosure when firing prone. Then when Colt introduced me to the Peel Washer, and its ability to adjust to a shooter’s strong side if desired, it became a no cost, no brainer improvement. It’s just unfortunate that the Services never picked-up on the left or right-handed options that any Armorer could perform. |
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ColdBlue sends...
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Originally Posted By AR-4C: Here is a report from the US ARMY Research Institute dated February 1986. It does not mention much about why the improvements were made to the pistol grip, other than what has already been mentioned in this post. Analysis of M16A2 Rifle Characteristics and Recommended Improvements View Quote That is a damn thorough document. It should have been required reading at Infantry School. |
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"I'm just an innocent, moon hillbilly!!!"
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Originally Posted By desertmoon:
That is a damn thorough document. It should have been required reading at Infantry School. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By desertmoon:
Originally Posted By AR-4C:
Here is a report from the US ARMY Research Institute dated February 1986. It does not mention much about why the improvements were made to the pistol grip, other than what has already been mentioned in this post. Analysis of M16A2 Rifle Characteristics and Recommended Improvements That is a damn thorough document. It should have been required reading at Infantry School. desertmoon; If you like that document, don't leave the dtic site too soon. I have STACKS of documents I've printed off that site in the event gubmnt runs out of $$ and shuts it down! LOL. I am both a user and a history nut and if you are of the same mind, that site will give you a LOT to chew on. And not just pertaining to the M16, tho it has gobs of material on that development also, from stem to stern. |
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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?
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Lt. Col. Lutz,
This is by far the most interesting and informative thread I have read in some time. Thank you for your service and for your insight. |
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ColdBlue sends...
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Thanks for the info, Coldblue.
I for one don't mind the A2 grip, heh. It's not often you get to speak with someone that has as much influence as you've had. |
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SGT Mike Knapp Dec 2, 1983-May 18, 2012.
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Originally Posted By coldblue:
I lucked-out. Something very similar was installed on a rack of test rifles stored in Picatinny’s bunker. These were the same rack of weapons where I found the original “4-Position Burst Controls” installed. The muzzle brakes on those rifles was adjustable for left or right-handed shooters by lifting a stout leaf spring and indexing it is the appropriated marked “L” or “R” notched washed trapped between the muzzle brake and the barrel. This design was a little too expensive to copy exactly for my A2 program; and some considered it a “moving part” that could adversely affect reliability; as well as adding two new parts to the assembly. But the muzzle brake’s positive effect on muzzle rise was demonstrable, as well as its closed bottom reducing position disclosure when firing prone. Then when Colt introduced me to the Peel Washer, and its ability to adjust to a shooter’s strong side if desired, it became a no cost, no brainer improvement. It’s just unfortunate that the Services never picked-up on the left or right-handed options that any Armorer could perform. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By coldblue:
Originally Posted By Blain:
I'm curious, coldblue, as to what development lead to the A2 flash hider from the A1? I lucked-out. Something very similar was installed on a rack of test rifles stored in Picatinny’s bunker. These were the same rack of weapons where I found the original “4-Position Burst Controls” installed. The muzzle brakes on those rifles was adjustable for left or right-handed shooters by lifting a stout leaf spring and indexing it is the appropriated marked “L” or “R” notched washed trapped between the muzzle brake and the barrel. This design was a little too expensive to copy exactly for my A2 program; and some considered it a “moving part” that could adversely affect reliability; as well as adding two new parts to the assembly. But the muzzle brake’s positive effect on muzzle rise was demonstrable, as well as its closed bottom reducing position disclosure when firing prone. Then when Colt introduced me to the Peel Washer, and its ability to adjust to a shooter’s strong side if desired, it became a no cost, no brainer improvement. It’s just unfortunate that the Services never picked-up on the left or right-handed options that any Armorer could perform. Could you elaborate more on the left or right hand option? I don't think I quite understand. Are you saying that the A2 flash hider should be mounted so the slots are not directly upward? |
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Originally Posted By coldblue:
Every M14 I had been issued previously had the parkerization of its rear flat face of its aperture rubbed completely off. (Seems to my memory they were also finely checkered as well, I assume to “matte” its appearance.) So when on the requalification range, we had to “smoke” them with carbide lamps to reduce the glare off their worn shinny surface to enhance our sight picture. I wanted the rear of the A2 to be concave to help prevent such non-reflective finish wear from rubbing or friction with cleaning brushes, etc. I know it looks backwards to some folk’s but for my intent is worked pretty well. View Quote Good to know, you have no idea how refreshing it is to be able to post an obscure question and get the exact factual data from the man himself, you're a service to this site |
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Originally Posted By Blain:
Could you elaborate more on the left or right hand option? I don't think I quite understand. Are you saying that the A2 flash hider should be mounted so the slots are not directly upward? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Blain:
Originally Posted By coldblue:
Originally Posted By Blain:
I'm curious, coldblue, as to what development lead to the A2 flash hider from the A1? I lucked-out. Something very similar was installed on a rack of test rifles stored in Picatinny’s bunker. These were the same rack of weapons where I found the original “4-Position Burst Controls” installed. The muzzle brakes on those rifles was adjustable for left or right-handed shooters by lifting a stout leaf spring and indexing it is the appropriated marked “L” or “R” notched washed trapped between the muzzle brake and the barrel. This design was a little too expensive to copy exactly for my A2 program; and some considered it a “moving part” that could adversely affect reliability; as well as adding two new parts to the assembly. But the muzzle brake’s positive effect on muzzle rise was demonstrable, as well as its closed bottom reducing position disclosure when firing prone. Then when Colt introduced me to the Peel Washer, and its ability to adjust to a shooter’s strong side if desired, it became a no cost, no brainer improvement. It’s just unfortunate that the Services never picked-up on the left or right-handed options that any Armorer could perform. Could you elaborate more on the left or right hand option? I don't think I quite understand. Are you saying that the A2 flash hider should be mounted so the slots are not directly upward? Above, where I stated: "...The muzzle brakes on those rifles was adjustable for left or right-handed shooters by lifting a stout leaf spring and indexing it is the appropriated marked “L” or “R” notched washed trapped between the muzzle brake and the barrel..." This "notched washer" was pretty thick and had a slot at about 10:30 o'clock (for left-handed shooter) and an opposing one at about 1:30 o'clock (right-handed shooter). When in either the L or R position, the middle slot would be at either 10:30 or 1:30 accordingly. This offset was intended to minimize dispersion of the 3-round burst, especially with firing off-hand/standing as your support arm is usually out at an angle to one side, (hardly ever exactly at 6 o'clock straight down), so as to drive the muzzle into the support arm in a straight line. Whereas with the compensator set as they left the factory at a 12 o'clock position (i.e., middle slot straight up) the muzzle energy would tend to move the muzzle to the weak side and open up the grouping. The option then existed for one to have an Armorer remove the compensator and then add or subtract some of the peel washer shims so as to "re-clock" or "time" the compensator's middle slot when reinstalled. Does this help explain? By the way, the peel washed, by design had its shim segments glued together so they could be delaminated in-the-field by heating them with a match. The peel washer was replaced a while back by the so-called "crush washer" as a cost cutting move. I still time my compensators for my left-handed orientation with a peel washer or KAC Shim Kit. |
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ColdBlue sends...
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LTC Lutz,
You have been amazingly informative in this thread and provided a great deal of history to the rifle development process that's greatly beneficial and I really appreciate it. I have a two-fer question if you have the time: Was there any discussion during the design process for the A2 of getting rid of or modifying the carry handle? I know during my short period of service (2003-current) and use of the A2 the carry handle was NEVER to be use as such and you rarely see the detachable versions in use nowadays on A4s. We're carry handles used back then? Secondly, was any consideration given to possibly making the platform more adaptable to using optics by removal or modification of the carry handle, as using the carry handle mount hole is uncomfortable at best for most uses with either NV, magnified or non-magnified optics. |
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BD1a ~ "You put your eyepro back on and get back to raping!"
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Originally Posted By 21BoomCBTENGR:
LTC Lutz, You have been amazingly informative in this thread and provided a great deal of history to the rifle development process that's greatly beneficial and I really appreciate it. I have a two-fer question if you have the time: Was there any discussion during the design process for the A2 of getting rid of or modifying the carry handle? I know during my short period of service (2003-current) and use of the A2 the carry handle was NEVER to be use as such and you rarely see the detachable versions in use nowadays on A4s. We're carry handles used back then? Secondly, was any consideration given to possibly making the platform more adaptable to using optics by removal or modification of the carry handle, as using the carry handle mount hole is uncomfortable at best for most uses with either NV, magnified or non-magnified optics. View Quote Not coldblue, but there have been several "attempts" at introducing an accessory rail to the upper receiver before the M4 and M16A4 were standardized - notably the Colt R656 and ACR among others. The ACR program also saw use of the ACOG and ELCAN C79. I'm sure he can comment more on what if any discussion was included insofar as the A2's development process is concerned, which I would be very interested to hear from him. ~Augee |
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[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By 21BoomCBTENGR:
LTC Lutz, Was there any discussion during the design process for the A2 of getting rid of or modifying the carry handle? I know during my short period of service (2003-current) and use of the A2 the carry handle was NEVER to be use as such and you rarely see the detachable versions in use nowadays on A4s. We're carry handles used back then? Secondly, was any consideration given to possibly making the platform more adaptable to using optics by removal or modification of the carry handle, as using the carry handle mount hole is uncomfortable at best for most uses with either NV, magnified or non-magnified optics. Not coldblue, but there have been several "attempts" at introducing an accessory rail to the upper receiver before the M4 and M16A4 were standardized - notably the Colt R656 and ACR among others. The ACR program also saw use of the ACOG and ELCAN C79. I'm sure he can comment more on what if any discussion was included insofar as the A2's development process is concerned, which I would be very interested to hear from him. ~Augee Since the carrying handle was literally the “receiver” for the M16A2’s 300-800 meter fully adjustable rear sight, we did not officially consider its elimination for the “basic” Service Rifle. But that being said, I was very impressed with the then brand new AUG-1 which had an integral low power optic sight. And it was not hard for me to visualize a “Marksman’s” A2 based rifle with such an optic attached to a Weaver Rail upper receiver in place of the carrying handle. Somewhere around the house here I have a “concept sketch” of such a rifle, but not sure where to put my hands on it at the moment. My “partner in crime” at Picatinny at the time (1980-83) was Mr. Vince Desiena (Sp?), and one Sunday we stopped at Rienhart’s Gun Shop somewhere in New Jersey and bought the longest Weaver Rail we could find. Then cut the handle off an M16A1 and attached the Weaver Rail to it and added a few more cross cuts to accommodate eye relief adjustments. I combined a steel tube Khales 1.5x scope that was pretty short in length with a pair of “enlarged to 26mm see-through” Weaver Rings. This placed the scope’s centerline about where you wanted it for a good cheek weld. About the same time, Canada was conducting new Service Rifle trials that included M16’s. Those efforts were moving them to an optical sight (eventually the Elcan) which necessitated a non-carrying handle upper. When Vince and I became aware of this it encouraged our A2 Marksman concept to a point where we were loaned one of the Canadian uppers with the help of the Picatinny’s Canadian Army Liaison Office, Maj. Rick Wilson who shared my office and secretary in Building 151. At a subsequent Picatinny ALCON meeting with Ft. Benning’s representative to our rifle product improvement program Mr. Jack Pritchard, he was able to see the writing on the wall as well, and in this discussion he began referring to the Canadian upper’s rail as the Canadian Rail and the one Vince and I had made as the “Picatinny Rail.” However, Jack being aware of numerous failed “advanced optical sight” projects that had been conducted over the years by the Infantry School cautioned that the Services were not ready for an optical sighted service weapon, and that the product improvement program’s requirement did not list a deficiency relating to the lack of an optical sight nor an accessory rail. Then Jack’s opinion was reinforced by a key Colonel in my chain of command at Headquarter and this all became a closed subject for fear that we were changing too many things and increasing “program risk.” In fact, there was a continuation list (i.e. Page 2) of such new options on a second viewgraph briefing slide that was eventually culled out of my final Headquarters Marine Corps briefing at the specific direction of this Colonel. But then that’s another story… On the other question, I think the subsequent ACR program certainly helped introduce the “general issue” optic service rifle and helped give that concept momentum subsequent considerations that culminated with the introduction of the Modular Weapon System (MWS), which saw the “light of day” with the development and introduction of the SOPMOD M4 Kit. So thanks to the USSOCOM Operators like MSGT Walt Mitten), even us poor Grunts now have an optically enhanced Service Rifle. |
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ColdBlue sends...
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Colonel, as a member of the retro forum, I would LOVE to see that sketch.
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Looking forward to NEXT year's Superbowl. This one sucked.
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Just an additional bit, telescopic sight use was envisioned all the way back at the beginning of the AR10 development and that story is told in the Black rifle and elsewhere. As we all know, these mounts were not optimal for several reasons.
For myself, I never have understood why a carry handle wasn't developed that would remain as a carry handle with low scope mounts developed or mounts integral to the scope tube itself to allow the irons to be left in place. Windage adjustment could easily then be incorporated into the mount, tho the lack thereof does not seem to be a problem with current setups. Cheek weld would not necessarily be optimum for current preferences, tho some of us like a heads-up stance. I have a purposefully high setup for a SAKO .375 H&H Mag of mine that uses the QD EAW mount. Such a high hold is not only NOT a disadvantage, it is actually an advantage and that can be demonstrated in looking at what Biathlon shooters and other competitors use, cheek-pieces notwithstanding. The low bore axis adds a little to the equation, but overall I'd have thought alot of the subsequent monkeying and initial cobbling of scope equipped rifles could have very, very easily been eliminated. |
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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?
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ColdBlue sends...
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Originally Posted By coldblue:
<a href="http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/D_A_Lutz/media/earlyremovablehandle_zps9e886309.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q759/D_A_Lutz/earlyremovablehandle_zps9e886309.jpg</a> Notice the date on this one, and also the absence of the case deflector. I don't think that was an option at that point in 1981. View Quote Fascinating! Thank you for posting! |
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Team Lighthouse
Award 24/365: Roundup Ready all the things! Fighting Communists was more fun when it was a group effort abroad, not an insurgency at home. |
Originally Posted By coldblue:
Morg, it took awhile to find these, and also jog my memory. As you can see, the scope/mount is dove tailed from rear to front like my old Sako rifles back then. The second photo is of the optional carrying handle/M16A2 iron sight base, also showing the dove tail. I had forgotten about the dovetails this morning. <a href="http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/D_A_Lutz/media/earlyscopeconcept_zps814f51a3.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q759/D_A_Lutz/earlyscopeconcept_zps814f51a3.jpg</a> View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By coldblue:
Originally Posted By Morg308:
Colonel, as a member of the retro forum, I would LOVE to see that sketch. ![]() Morg, it took awhile to find these, and also jog my memory. As you can see, the scope/mount is dove tailed from rear to front like my old Sako rifles back then. The second photo is of the optional carrying handle/M16A2 iron sight base, also showing the dove tail. I had forgotten about the dovetails this morning. <a href="http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/D_A_Lutz/media/earlyscopeconcept_zps814f51a3.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q759/D_A_Lutz/earlyscopeconcept_zps814f51a3.jpg</a> First, thank you to you and all that have served. In the first drawing, I love the concept of turning the carry handle into a set of scope mounts. I always found it interesting that the "carry handle" really started life as a "trigger guard" on the prototypes that had a "trigger" bolt handles. It was a natural spot to put the iron sights, but when the "trigger" was moved, it was left in place and called a handle. I've never heard of anyone ever using as such... |
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I like the issued pistol grip and stock. It could just be that I "grew up" using them and got accustomed to them. I've tried others, and it feels weird and the upgraded buttstock usually is heavier. I wanted to like all the cooler looking more expensive Magpul furniture or whatever, but I just don't. It has saved me a little weight and money on my lower builds. That money is better spent on an upgraded trigger IMO.
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Originally Posted By coldblue:
In fact, Colt had a similar "heartburn" as well, as we brought our designs to the table, like the square front sight post, pistol grip, etc. At a meeting with them subsequent to our submitting my pistol grip samples, they awarded me this memento: View Quote I love the A2 grip, so thanks for designing it. It's not often you're able to thank the designer of the gun you use. |
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This is a great thread. Thank you coldblue for all you have shared.
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Originally Posted By coldblue:
[ When the 0-2 aperture is flipped into firing position, it lowers the sight line accordingly for a more point of aim = point of impact (POA=POI) at closer ranges, i.e., 200 meters. And as you know, this also equates to the popular 50 meter zero which allows the round’s trajectory to deliver POA=POI across these more common combat engagement ranges. One just needs to train with the 5mm aperture and gain confident in your shooting ability with it. I also saw the writing on the wall that smaller peep inserts could easily be made to “snap in” the 5mm for those more comfortable with a smaller peep at close range. That was another element of “growth potential” I wanted built into the new Service Rifle. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By coldblue:
[ When the 0-2 aperture is flipped into firing position, it lowers the sight line accordingly for a more point of aim = point of impact (POA=POI) at closer ranges, i.e., 200 meters. And as you know, this also equates to the popular 50 meter zero which allows the round’s trajectory to deliver POA=POI across these more common combat engagement ranges. One just needs to train with the 5mm aperture and gain confident in your shooting ability with it. I also saw the writing on the wall that smaller peep inserts could easily be made to “snap in” the 5mm for those more comfortable with a smaller peep at close range. That was another element of “growth potential” I wanted built into the new Service Rifle. I am so glad that I elected to read the Discussion group this morning. coldbllue let me first thank you for your service to our country and its fighting men. Next I would ask if this product was one you envisioned as "growth potential". http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/idl/ |
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Thank you for the great history lesson!
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NRA Life Member
USPSA-IPSC "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin |
Screw It!!!...MACHINE GUNS & OPEN-CARRY FOR ALL!!!
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I didn't go through all six pages here, so I don't know if it has been mentioned already, but for those of you who haven't had the sorry misfortune to have to handle a weapon with bloody hands, let me tell you - Blood makes everything 50X harder to handle.
While a rubberized grip may be more comfortable to carry when dry, In my experience, they absolutely suck to handle with bloody palms. If for no other reason than blood's slick-ness factor, I can see why the marines wanted a more aggressive back-strap & finger-bump, though if it were me, I would have requested they place the side stippling over the entire surface of the grip... ETA: So as per a few of the following posters' recommendations, I now have gone through & read all six pages of this thread... Certainly a fascinating (if not entertaining) read. I can't help but stare at that "Colt Award" in indecision as to whether it's a Work of Art, or should be killed with fire. ![]() |
,——' !‚–’¯¯ƒ One is just never enough... |
Originally Posted By ankratz:
I'm building an XM177'ish carbine, and just got in an A1 grip to slap on it. Holy smokes...it's still too small to be "comfortable" compared to a MOE+, but it's world's more comfortable (and seemingly universal) than the A2. View Quote Want to get rid of it then? ![]() |
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“Negative. I am a meat popsicle."
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Originally Posted By FlDiveCop71:
I didn't go through all six pages here, so I don't know if it has been mentioned already, but for those of you who haven't had the sorry misfortune to have to handle a weapon with bloody hands, let me tell you - Blood makes everything 50X harder to handle. While a rubberized grip may be more comfortable to carry when dry, In my experience, they absolutely suck to handle with bloody palms. If for no other reason than blood's slick-ness factor, I can see why the marines wanted a more aggressive back-strap & finger-bump, though if it were me, I would have requested they place the side stippling over the entire surface of the grip... View Quote It was I that asked for this to be tacted or least never be put in the archives as the information within is a gold mine of the reason's why things were done the way they were. |
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"Ever heard of building confidence with easily achievable goals? Bet your girlfriend does it for you all the time." -Michael Branson
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Very informative. Thanks for posting all this!
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"The M1 Rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised." General George S. Patton Jr.,US Army
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coldblue,
on stock length, was any consideration given to wearing body armor and how this would affect length of pull? I know that the PASGT helmet and flak were being issued at the time the A2 was being developed |
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I like the A2 grip, personally. Never had an issue with it.
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I find the A2 finger nub physically painful after more than half an hour or so. My preferred variant is the A1 overall, but I am rather partial to the A2's unparalleled sight setup. As I frequently use plates, the A1 stock represents the best LOP for me without going to a rattletrap adjustable unit.
Coldblue, thank you very much for sharing your experiences with this thread. It is a great read; I love reading about the context and motivation behind engineering decisions. |
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Funny thing is that even the ARX160 first came with an A1 style pistol grip but after a couple of years of field use it has been replaced by The A2 style
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I have a box of A2 grips. Only two rifles wear them - my NM rifle and a Mossberg MVP-LC that came with a MOE+ grip that made for too long a reach to the trigger. I filed off the finger bump on an A2 and stuck it on. Perfect!
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Wow.
This thread has far exceeded my initial expectations of where it would go. Thank you so very much LTC Lutz. Fascinating stuff. |
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Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready. -Theodore Roosevelt
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Originally Posted By Mister-Z:
Wow. This thread has far exceeded my initial expectations of where it would go. Thank you so very much LTC Lutz. Fascinating stuff. View Quote I'll echo this, it was a great read as someone interested in the AR platform's history. FWIW, I'm probably that perfect middle percentile guy, but the A2 grip's nub has never presented a problem for me, gloves or not. In fact, I find it helpful on my 20" HBAR that clocks in near 11 lbs, as well as on my 901 if it's loaded down with something front-heavy like a bipod, as the little nub helps with extra gripping surface if I want to hold my weapon on target one-handed while manipulating something elsewhere on the rifle. That's a lot more difficult to do with a slick grip. |
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Originally Posted By ankratz:
I've never been a fan of the "stock" pistol grips. They've always come off immediately in favor of MIAD's or MOE's. And a quick browse on the EE seems to mimic the same sentiment. (They're like awful stocking stuffers that no one wants) I'm building an XM177'ish carbine, and just got in an A1 grip to slap on it. Holy smokes...it's still too small to be "comfortable" compared to a MOE+, but it's world's more comfortable (and seemingly universal) than the A2. It's wider, and doesn't have that annoying ridge right where you want to put your middle finger (unless of course you have truck driver/bass player hands). Other than the stippling, how was the A2 grip considered an "upgrade"? For that matter, how was that grip (in A1 or A2 configuration) ever considered large enough for American's hands to begin with? Was Eugene Stoner just kind of a dainty man? View Quote Small? Spoken like a man who's never held an AK lol. ![]() ![]() |
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I hate the A1/A2 grips. Too small. For me Ergo Ambi or Miad with front hump and large backstrap. Tried DD grip and Larue's grip didn't like either. I wish Magul made a MOE+ in a larger size.
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Originally Posted By SnowboundinNH:
Now I know who to thank for the integral brass deflector. Pure genius. ![]() I used an A1 in Basic. I ended up with more than a few hot casings down my collar and sleeves, but the one that lodged itself in my chin strap was truly the "bitch of the bunch". I received a third degree burn on my cheek. It blistered, and having to wear that chin strap every day in the hot Kentucky sun was not only painful but kept it from healing. It took years for the dark red scar to fade. Those clip-on A1 brass deflectors were quite possibly the hardest piece of equipment in Army inventory to find. More elusive than a box of grid squares and slicker than a can of squelch. Even after we turned in our A1s for A2s.....I never gave up "my precious". I still have it.....DON'T YOU BE EYEBALLING MY PRECIOUS!!! http://i59.tinypic.com/flc182.jpg View Quote Ha, I have seen those in the armory and had no idea what they were. I wounder if the gunner mates even know. I never seen them used during range time. |
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Originally Posted By DANNY1911:
Ha, I have seen those in the armory and had no idea what they were. I wounder if the gunner mates even know. I never seen them used during range time. View Quote The deflectors are great for a lot of people, but not for folks over 6 feet tall. I wound up with some case-shaped burns (with scars that lasted for a couple years) because the Air Force used case deflectors when I qualified after Basic. IN Basic they had the dreaded Air Force .22 adapters; between the adapters getting filthy and the rifles themselves "maybe" being cleaned every now and then, those M16s (I don't even think they were A1s) were super Jam-O-Matics. (And yes, that means I'm older than dirt. ![]() |
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"--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
Heinlein NRA Life Member Glock Certified Armorer Certified AR15 Armorer Certified M1911 Armorer |
This thread delivers!! Thank LTC Lutz for taking the time to post all of the information.
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Freedom is not Free..
Gun Gallery 4 Life: "Selling Guns, Changing People's Lives" IG: 2A_Patriots and HotBrass365 / HotBrass365crew |
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