

You asked: "...What about the heavy profile in front of the fsb?
I was under the impression that the reasons for adding the extra meat at the front was in error...." Not in regards to preventing the barrel bending during dynamic bayonet fighting drills or banging against rappelling towers, etc. The Operational and Engineering testing proved the heavier profile in front of just behind the FSP was many times more resistant to being ben in our more aggressive training environments than those of the other services.. Now it is also a fact (now, established many years after this testing) that a burr on the gas port can act as a "scraper" of sorts and may cause a build-up of bullet jacket material that will cause the military's "barrel straightness gauge" to get hung-up in that general area. A bore brush and an electric drill can usually fix this. However, I noted more recently, that the copy of the Army 23&P TM on the internet directs Armorers to "re-bend" bent barrels over a bench so the drop gauge passes through. So maybe we have at least two potential issues with the drop gauge, "bent barrels", etc. |
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ColdBlue sends...
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Very interesting to hear the whole process Coldblue, thank you for posting this stuff!
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Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Col. Lutz, how are the A2 sights advantageous to the Army? In Army use they are not adjusted from zero intentionally. View Quote The main advantage was the ability, that is if they cared to train for it, to accurately engage targets at greater ranges than they could before. That was why we went with the 800/300 rear sight. Rifle fire at such ranges is directed by small unit leaders with a fire command to a group of firers, such as: "Squad! Rifleman only, Direct front. Abandoned house with enemy squad. Range 550 meters. Adjust sights. On my command...Fire. This is how a small unit could accurately lay down a base of fire while a second element conducted an envelopment. My experience in Viet-Nam as an Infantry Platoon Leader was that we always needed to lug around M60 machine guns for such purposes, as our organic M16A1's lacked a longer than battle sight capability. I mean without the M60, we could get pinned down in the rice paddy area I worked in by a couple of SKS's from a tree line only 400 meters out. I wanted the M14's/M1's range adjustable sight capability back! I bent over backwards on design improvements/changes to keep the Infantry School at Fort Benning at the M16A2 table. One example was maintaining a simple method for obtaining their 25 meter zero, which by the way the Marines were using then as well. That required one click of A2 rear sight elevation past the 300 meter mark; which allowed you to shoot "point of aim = point of impact" at 25 meters for your zero. Then rotate one click down to the 300 when finished. The POA=POI was much easier for everyone to understand versus the off-set impact method of the A1. The previously mentioned Army report kind of deliberately ignores this accommodation in their criticism, as well as pointing out the A2's lack of 25 meter zero symbol (like a triangle) on the range adjustment wheel. Back then in my mind, as well as several at Ft. Benning at the time, that if a Soldier could remember what the little triangle was used for, then he/she could remember the one click up as easily. This was well covered in the TM's I revised as well as the 25 meter zeroing target I developed. And like I said above, we did not change the tread pitch of the front sight post so an A1 post could be used, as well as their Low Light Level sight kit. And using an A1 front sight post maintained total interoperability with their existing targets and their zeroing targets metric grid adjustment values. The much bigger issue was them switching from their well established 250 meter zero to our 300. But how I did that is another story... |
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ColdBlue sends...
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Originally Posted By coldblue:
The main advantage was the ability, that is if they cared to train for it, to accurately engage targets at greater ranges than they could before. That was why we went with the 800/300 rear sight. Rifle fire at such ranges is directed by small unit leaders with a fire command to a group of firers, such as: "Squad! Rifleman only, Direct front. Abandoned house with enemy squad. Range 550 meters. Adjust sights. On my command...Fire. This is how a small unit could accurately lay down a base of fire while a second element conducted an envelopment. My experience in Viet-Nam as an Infantry Platoon Leader was that we always needed to lug around M60 machine guns for such purposes, as our organic M16A1's lacked a longer than battle sight capability. I mean without the M60, we could get pinned down in the rice paddy area I worked in by a couple of SKS's from a tree line only 400 meters out. I wanted the M14's/M1's range adjustable sight capability back! I bent over backwards on design improvements/changes to keep the Infantry School at Fort Benning at the M16A2 table. One example was maintaining a simple method for obtaining their 25 meter zero, which by the way the Marines were using then as well. That required one click of A2 rear sight elevation past the 300 meter mark; which allowed you to shoot "point of aim = point of impact" at 25 meters for your zero. Then rotate one click down to the 300 when finished. The POA=POI was much easier for everyone to understand versus the off-set impact method of the A1. The previously mentioned Army report kind of deliberately ignores this accommodation in their criticism, as well as pointing out the A2's lack of 25 meter zero symbol (like a triangle) on the range adjustment wheel. Back then in my mind, as well as several at Ft. Benning at the time, that if a Soldier could remember what the little triangle was used for, then he/she could remember the one click up as easily. This was well covered in the TM's I revised as well as the 25 meter zeroing target I developed. And like I said above, we did not change the tread pitch of the front sight post so an A1 post could be used, as well as their Low Light Level sight kit. And using an A1 front sight post maintained total interoperability with their existing targets and their zeroing targets metric grid adjustment values. The much bigger issue was them switching from their well established 250 meter zero to our 300. But how I did that is another story... View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By coldblue:
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Col. Lutz, how are the A2 sights advantageous to the Army? In Army use they are not adjusted from zero intentionally. The main advantage was the ability, that is if they cared to train for it, to accurately engage targets at greater ranges than they could before. That was why we went with the 800/300 rear sight. Rifle fire at such ranges is directed by small unit leaders with a fire command to a group of firers, such as: "Squad! Rifleman only, Direct front. Abandoned house with enemy squad. Range 550 meters. Adjust sights. On my command...Fire. This is how a small unit could accurately lay down a base of fire while a second element conducted an envelopment. My experience in Viet-Nam as an Infantry Platoon Leader was that we always needed to lug around M60 machine guns for such purposes, as our organic M16A1's lacked a longer than battle sight capability. I mean without the M60, we could get pinned down in the rice paddy area I worked in by a couple of SKS's from a tree line only 400 meters out. I wanted the M14's/M1's range adjustable sight capability back! I bent over backwards on design improvements/changes to keep the Infantry School at Fort Benning at the M16A2 table. One example was maintaining a simple method for obtaining their 25 meter zero, which by the way the Marines were using then as well. That required one click of A2 rear sight elevation past the 300 meter mark; which allowed you to shoot "point of aim = point of impact" at 25 meters for your zero. Then rotate one click down to the 300 when finished. The POA=POI was much easier for everyone to understand versus the off-set impact method of the A1. The previously mentioned Army report kind of deliberately ignores this accommodation in their criticism, as well as pointing out the A2's lack of 25 meter zero symbol (like a triangle) on the range adjustment wheel. Back then in my mind, as well as several at Ft. Benning at the time, that if a Soldier could remember what the little triangle was used for, then he/she could remember the one click up as easily. This was well covered in the TM's I revised as well as the 25 meter zeroing target I developed. And like I said above, we did not change the tread pitch of the front sight post so an A1 post could be used, as well as their Low Light Level sight kit. And using an A1 front sight post maintained total interoperability with their existing targets and their zeroing targets metric grid adjustment values. The much bigger issue was them switching from their well established 250 meter zero to our 300. But how I did that is another story... |
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Talking to Glock fanboy's is like having a duel of wits with unarmed men.
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This has been an extremely informative thread. Thank you sir for your input into the reasons as to why the upgrades were made.
I have an Uncle that served during Vietnam as a medic in the special forces. He taught me how to shoot an AR on his A1 style colt. When I entered Basic training I quickly learned that I liked the A2 version much better. I preferred both the grip and the buttstock change. I am not a large guy but at 5'11 I felt the length of pull on the A1 buttstock just didn't feel as comfortable. I also liked the rear sight adjustment so much better especially when I qualified for the base shooting team and we started shooting out to 600 meters. On all 4 of my ARs I have the A2 style pistol grip and prefer it to other grips out there. Maybe it's because what I had gotten used to while in the Army that makes me a bit biased. |
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Originally Posted By Palladin8:
This has been an extremely informative thread. Thank you sir for your input into the reasons as to why the upgrades were made. I have an Uncle that served during Vietnam as a medic in the special forces. He taught me how to shoot an AR on his A1 style colt. When I entered Basic training I quickly learned that I liked the A2 version much better. I preferred both the grip and the buttstock change. I am not a large guy but at 5'11 I felt the length of pull on the A1 buttstock just didn't feel as comfortable. I also liked the rear sight adjustment so much better especially when I qualified for the base shooting team and we started shooting out to 600 meters. On all 4 of my ARs I have the A2 style pistol grip and prefer it to other grips out there. Maybe it's because what I had gotten used to while in the Army that makes me a bit biased. View Quote One thing I forgot to mention, re: the 5/8" buttstock length increase, was that HEL's input was based on how far "ideally" behind the rear sight peep your eye should be for the 95th percentile Soldier. And as with all the changes, although many were subjective on my part, I had to present objective data on the improvement level, or equal to data, to not only my reporting senior at Quantico, but a board of senior officers at Headquarters Marine Corps on a periodic basis during that three year period when I was assigned to the project at Picatinny. |
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ColdBlue sends...
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Thank you sir for the story. Could you tell us about how the Army ended up with a new zero range?
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“All the time you spend tryin to get back what's been took from you there's more goin out the door. After a while you just try and get a tourniquet on it.” Cormac McCarthy
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Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Thank you sir for the story. Could you tell us about how the Army ended up with a new zero range? View Quote Here you go: BZO Zero Change (1980-1983) At the time in 1980, Army rifle Battle Sight Zero (BZO) doctrine was 250 meters whereas the Marine Corps was 300 meters (well, 300 meters sort of). Sort of, because there was only one metric rifle re-qualification range in the Corps at the time at Camp Pendleton. All other such ranges were decades old and in yards, but at the end of re-qual week, we pretended they were meters for the final BZO adjustment. Marines determined BZO at the end of annual rifle re-qualification. Marine Corps re-qualification at the time fired 50 rounds across the course of fire starting at 200 and ending at 500. All hits were “disked” by personnel in the butts, one or ten shots at a time, so the Marine could make subsequent sight adjustments between shots in slow fire if necessary. These hits were also recorded by the shooter in his Shooter’s Log Book. Sight adjustments at each range and sometimes even firing positions were reset accordingly (aka: dope changes) and were also recorded from day to day in a Shooter’s Log Book as well. The 200 was “slow-fired” from two positions: standing and kneeling. The 300 was fired sitting and then 10 rounds prone rapid fire. The 500 was 10 rounds of slow fire from the prone. The targets were as follows: 200: small bull’s-eye. 300: small bull’s-eye (sitting) and a “head & shoulders” silhouette (prone). 500: E-type silhouette. At the end of qualification day at the 500 firing line, coaches supervised the rifle sights being re-set to the Marine’s 300 prone rapid fire dope and then adding one click for the metric element. That was our battle sight zero position. Previously, the same basic zero set procedure for 300 had been applied to the M14 and M1 rifle sights—less the metric click. As far as I know and/or observed, Army requalification with the M16A1 was fired from a fixed, fox hole supported position at E- silhouette targets from close in to out to 250 meters. The targets were hit sensitive. Sights were not adjusted during the course of fire (as they were during Marine requalification). This course was fired after an Army 25 meter zero, 25 meters being 1/10” the 250 meters battle sight zero range; so one centimeter worth of clicks at 25 would equate to 4 cm at 100, 8 cm at 200, and 10 cm at 250. That is to say, 250 being divisible by 25 x 10, or whatever the logic was… This 1/10 metric math, I suppose, was to make dope changes easier for the Soldier to understand, even though on the qualification course, sights were not adjusted and the actual target hits were not “disked,” so the Soldier only knew he had hit a target, not if the hit was high, low, whatever. So the first thing Ft. Benning (The Infantry School) did not like about the Product Improved (PIP) rifle’s adjustable rear sight was the lack of a clearly marked 250 meter zero mark on the range wheel. What I came prepared to do, however, was to show how the new SS109/M855 rounds’ flatter trajectory achieved an increase in BZO range effectiveness without the need for any changes in their training, re-qual and zeroing ranges, or doctrine. My Point of Contac (POC) in those days with the Infantry School was a Mr. Jack Pritchard, who passed away several years’ later, God rest his soul. Jack understood my first briefing on the flatter trajectory issue and impact on zeroing which illustrated the 193 vs M855 trajectories on a two-dimensional briefing slide as you might well imagine. But Jack was reluctant to run such a potentially controversial issue up the flag pole, with conventional presentation slides (in those days before power point, using overhead projectors onto a screen, etc.). He said he needed a more graphic, hands-on exhibit that “…even a General could understand…” I put some thought into how to do this, and scheduled range time at the Army’s NATO Test Range at Fort Dix, New Jersey the following week. Part of this range complex was a flat 1000 meter outdoor range with surveyed-in range markers in meters, etc. What we did was to use a wheeled hand cart to mount a “back to back” pair of E-Silhouette targets, which were the same size as the Army qualified on, so I knew they would recognize and identify with them later. We then moved the cart and a new target pair the required distances from my fixed firing position. The “back to back” target idea was to create a “xerox” copy of each 10-round shot group at each range fired. That way both Jack and I were briefing from the same data points, using virtually the same targets. The Colt test rifle (designated as M16A1E1 for this project) had a 1:7 twist barrel, adjustable rear sight (i.e., the very early version with the range reading peep hole at the rear of the carrying handle) along with some of the (thank God!) Belgian SS109 ammo that had been so kindly provided by the Canadian Army a few weeks earlier. (Note: this was before the case deflector was added to the upper receiver which leads to yet another chapter in this saga). After I zeroed using the new procedures I had developed and my prototype 25 meter zeroing target at 25 meters, shooting “point of aim = point of impact” we mounted a new pair of E-silhouettes and moved them to the 100 meter line. I then fired 10-rounds, slow fire from a supported prone position, aiming center of mass on the E-silhouette. The center of mass of these E-silhouettes was indicated by covering the lower half of the E-silhouette with a sheet of white paper (as illustrated in the graphic below). After I fired the 10-rounds, we moved to the target, replaced the E-silhouettes and moved to the next range. The results are illustrated to the best of my memory below: Jack was very happy with my “xerox” results, which he used effectively in subsequent Infantry School briefings, illustrating that the Army was not giving anything up by changing from a 250 meter zero, but in fact were gaining “yardage” due to the new NATO round‘s flatter trajectory; and having potentially increased effective range over the M16A1, considering the A2 rear sight’s range adjustment and loading longer, heavier bullets tailored for the quicker twist barrels. I mean, I thank my lucky stars and the sage advice from ammunition engineers at Picatinny, namely Mr. Denis Conway, who counseled me that the 1:7 twist versus a 1:9, which was being favored by some at the time, would provide greater growth potential later for improved ammunition, i.e., the Mk 262, if it were needed due to changing battlefield conditions. And let me state ahead of interested reader comments to this posting, I am remembering this from over 30 years ago. So on the Marine Corps/Army requalification procedures, for example, I may have a detail a bit off here and there, but I think my comparisons (which are the point of the paragraphs in the first place) are right on, as well as germane to the discussion topic. The shot group and trajectory impact group placements in the illustration are as accurate as I can recall, and I apologize in advance for any differences that subsequent shooting, and of the “Americanization” of the original Belgian SS109 round, may have illustrated differently. All I can say is that in those days before my eyesight went a little south, I was very proficient in my iron sight/M16 shooting skill level. I am also 100% sure that on that firing day, my 25 meter zero was dead center; the 300 meter target had five rounds above and five rounds below the aiming point (which was actually the major point of the exercise); and that all ten rounds at 350 were at or below the aiming point, but on the E-Silhouette target non-the-less (which proved to be the “frosting on the cake” for the Infantry School). |
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ColdBlue sends...
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ColdBlue sends...
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Thank you so much for posting this. This has been some very informative reading.
(Note: this was before the case deflector was added to the upper receiver which leads to yet another chapter in this saga). Since you brought it up, would love to hear the story on this as well. |
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You know after all these years, I've finally learned the actual explanation for the rear sight. Thank you Sir.
This thread needs to be stickied and added to the faq's, it's a gold mine. |
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Talking to Glock fanboy's is like having a duel of wits with unarmed men.
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A link to this thread is now available in the FAQ Resource, and it is set to never archive.
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"Site Staff remembers when you could buy a keg of musket balls for $1.75"
I'm never wrong. I thought I was once, but I was mistaken. |
What an awesome thread! Info like this is why I maintain my Arfcom memebership. Thanks very much LtCol Lutz for all this informative history!
S/F, sseric02 |
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Off the record, I love your new bangs, Mrs. Obama
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This thread has blossomed into something great!
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Some more information from "Coldblue" about the A2s development and the reasoning behind it!!
I sent him an email and asked: “…How close was the A2 design to keeping the A2 stock the same length as the older A1 with just improved materials?
Did they perform any durability tests on the new adjustable rear A2 sights to see how they held up to rough use in the field vs. the old A1 rear fixed sights? The entire rear sight block on the A2 is steel, I figured this was to help compensate for the durability loss of an adjustable sight…?” View Quote His response! The M16A1 buttstock length was unchanged as we switched to the more modern and many times stronger Du Pont Zytel material. It was subsequent input from the Army’s Human Engineering Laboratory (HEL) that prompted the length increase. HEL actually had data supporting almost a one inch increase, but the existing Arms Room M12 Rifle Racks would not accept more than the 5/8” increase we applied to the new stock. Incidentally, we also increased the depth of the cleaning kit void formed in its foam fill the 5/8” as well. Durability of the A2 adjustable rear sight was deemed “equal to or better” than the M16A1’s. Standard Aberdeen Proving Ground (APG) Test Center Standard Test Operating Procedures (STOP’s) were used for durability and rough handling comparison evaluations. These included drop testing on plywood covered concrete from a height of five feet at various muzzle up, muzzle down, on the side, etc., rifle attitudes. And as you observe above, the A2’s steel rear sight base actually resisted permanent deformation better than the aluminum M16A1 carrying handle “ears” that protect the rear sight aperture. The only part of the A2 sight that “broke,” was one of six of the original aluminum windage knobs. It was simply a straight sided, serrated drum which “proudly” presented its outside corner, so as to make it easy to turn when wearing heavy gloves. The fix was simple, I took one of the original knobs back to my shop at Picatinny, mounted it in my Black & Decker drill and took the corner way down with a mill file. This chamfer was about one-third the knob’s height, but retained enough of the original serrations for operation with gloves. I then used a small Swiss File to make “witness marks” on this new surface so shooters would have click reference marks for dope changes. I took this modified knob to Colt in Hartford and they changed the evolving technical data package drawings accordingly. The A2 windage knob I am sure you are familiar is its direct successor. Semper Fi, Dave Wow, what great information! My thoughts: It is too bad that the A2 rear sight didn't incorporate steel for the elevation and windage wheels as well. Having the complete rear sight assembly made entirely out of steel (ala the M1 and M14) would have really made the rear sight assembly almost bulletproof. That, along with the fact that the windage knob didn't have numbers on it to correspond with the hash marks (for quick zero check / confirmation) are the only main problems I have with the A2 rear sight. Do you think the 0 - 200 meter aperture is too large? Do you like how it is not a same plane aperture? |
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Here is my response to the next question:
You asked: “…Dave, that is great information! It is too bad that the A2 rear sight didn't incorporate steel for the elevation wheel and windage wheel as well. That would really help to make the rear sight assembly much more durable. That, along with the fact that the windage knob didn't have numbers on it to correspond with the hash marks (for quick zero check / confirmation) are the only main problems I have with the A2 rear sight. Do you think the 0 - 200 meter aperture is too large? Do you like how it is not same plane? Can you, or I, re post this info to that AR15.com thread for the awareness of all in the community? The aluminum elevation wheel assembly and windage knob have actually held up well in service since 1983 when they were finalized. And the aluminum helped keep both the cost and weight of the sight change down, as the Marine Corps was not interested in a more expensive or heavier M16 Service Rifle, just a better one. Of course in short order as Military Rifle teams, target shooters and competitors saw the bull’s eye potential of the new rear sight and ammunition improvements and the M16A2, being the new Service Rifle, started making a domineering presence at the Camp Perry National Matches. Hand in glove with this process were entrepreneurs manufacturing internal M16A2 rear sight parts (as you suggest) from steel to tighter tolerances and half-minute elevation clicks. (By the way, it was no accident that such a conversion process was easy enough to do with simple hand tools, and by anyone with a little mechanical talent, i.e., a shooter did not have to rely on a Match Team Armorer to make the rear sight “better,” as I saw this happening down the road.) The windage knob was always in half-minute clicks and did not need a finer adjustment. Windage numbers. Actually I filed “roman numerals” on another chamfered windage knob for just such zero check reference purposes. However, in discussions with Colt’s engineer Mr. Harold Waterman, numbering the ten windage half-minute clicks 0 through 9 would only work well for left windage adjustments as the first “click” left indicating at 12 o’clock would be the “1.” Whereas the first click of right windage would indicate “9.” So we kept the marking “neutral,” we went with 10 hash marks around the chamfer. What most Marines are taught for zero windage position is to use paint to mark the windage knob a corresponding reference point painted on the base. On the 0-2 aperture, that had several consideration points and applications. First and foremost was its 5mm diameter “ghost ring,” was like those on some dangerous game rifles I had hunted with. This type rear sight aids in addressing close range moving targets in close cover, versus a small diameter peep better used for more distant targets. The 5mm was also the same diameter as the Army’s Low Light Level (LLL) sight system kit’s M16A1 replacement rear aperture. However, that kit’s rear peep required an armorer to install, and then if the rifle was surveyed, be replaced with an original peep. Consequently, few Soldiers (or Marines) ever gained the advantage of the kit included luminous front sight post. I was keen on adding this night time aiming aspect down to the User level of maintenance, i.e., only requiring a front sight post change, considering my Viet-Nam experience, especially considering near half of a combat day is in the dark. I remember one of my men in the Nam using dental floss stretched between his rear peep and front sight post as we prepared our gear for night ambush patrols. I was never sure how well this worked for the Corporal, but at a minimum he was mentally preparing himself to actually aim his rifle at night (something that was rare in those days). When the 0-2 aperture is flipped into firing position, it lowers the sight line accordingly for a more point of aim = point of impact (POA=POI) at closer ranges, i.e., 200 meters. And as you know, this also equates to the popular 50 meter zero which allows the round’s trajectory to deliver POA=POI across these more common combat engagement ranges. One just needs to train with the 5mm aperture and gain confident in your shooting ability with it. I also saw the writing on the wall that smaller peep inserts could easily be made to “snap in” the 5mm for those more comfortable with a smaller peep at close range. That was another element of “growth potential” I wanted built into the new Service Rifle. |
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ColdBlue sends...
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Originally Posted By Augee: Well, OP, it's not often that you ask "why did..." and someone comes along to say "because of me." ![]() Thanks again, Lt. Col. Lutz for your insight, knowledge, and experience. ~Augee View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Augee: Originally Posted By coldblue: <snip> Well, OP, it's not often that you ask "why did..." and someone comes along to say "because of me." ![]() Thanks again, Lt. Col. Lutz for your insight, knowledge, and experience. ~Augee Now Augee. This is arfcom. You know a lot of people, a metric ton of people here, would say "because of me." But, in this case, it just happens to be true. And it was because of him. OP, you should be honored. Rarely does this much actual wisdom get shared around here. |
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Originally Posted By coldblue:
One thing I forgot to mention, re: the 5/8" buttstock length increase, was that HEL's input was based on how far "ideally" behind the rear sight peep your eye should be for the 95th percentile Soldier. And as with all the changes, although many were subjective on my part, I had to present objective data on the improvement level, or equal to data, to not only my reporting senior at Quantico, but a board of senior officers at Headquarters Marine Corps on a periodic basis during that three year period when I was assigned to the project at Picatinny. View Quote Wasn't the 95th Percentile Male Soldier around 6'2" back then? |
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Originally Posted By dewatters:
Wasn't the 95th Percentile Male Soldier around 6'2" back then? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By dewatters:
Originally Posted By coldblue:
One thing I forgot to mention, re: the 5/8" buttstock length increase, was that HEL's input was based on how far "ideally" behind the rear sight peep your eye should be for the 95th percentile Soldier. And as with all the changes, although many were subjective on my part, I had to present objective data on the improvement level, or equal to data, to not only my reporting senior at Quantico, but a board of senior officers at Headquarters Marine Corps on a periodic basis during that three year period when I was assigned to the project at Picatinny. Wasn't the 95th Percentile Male Soldier around 6'2" back then? Amusingly I'm 6'2" and I find the A2 stock entirely too long. I love this thread. Thank you for the information, coldblue. |
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M16A1 Buttstock Option
I guess I am still mystified as to why at least one of the Services did not request that the Army stock an M16A1 length buttstock assembly, molded from the new, stronger Du Pont Zytel material, as an option to the added length of the A2’s. As we discussed with Colt and Engineers from Picatinny Arsenal the most cost effective way to increase the buttstock length, several options were developed and considered. The one I selected was that most easily re-converted to the original M16’s length of pull. By that I mean retaining the original M16A1 receiver extension (buffer tube) length was the key to this option and the major reason it was selected. The buffer tube, being also the most expensive component of the buttstock assembly would have measurably increased the lengthening cost, and also significantly detracted from Armorers changing it back once the rifle was in service. Whereas maintaining the standard buffer tube length allowed the buttstock to be replaced quite easily with a screw driver and a shorter length vented M16A1 buttstock screw. There were really only two new parts needed for the A2 buttstock change, those being a longer length vented buttock screw, M16A1 Vented Buttstock Screw (overall): .565” M16A2 Vented Buttstock Screw (overall): 1.136” and a 5/8” thick spacer to fit between the rear of the buffer tube and the buttstock’s buttplate. If one later installed an M16A1 buttstock, there two parts were set aside. It was my plan once the decision was made that the optional A1 buttstock assembly be packed in the Supply System with the correct, shorter length (.565”) buttstock screw; unfortunately this action was never completed by my successors after I left the program at the end of 1983. Actually, one other buttstock assembly part was changed as well. This was the lower buttstock screw that secured the lower sling swivel to the assembly. This was required because of the way the new polymer material “flowed” into the molding cavity. So to get the best strength out of the molded part, the sling swivel needed to be relocated closer to the buttplate and this required a shorter screw. M16A1 Lower Buttstock Screw Length (under the head): 1.20” M16A2 Lower Buttstock Screw Length (under the head): 1.88” Of course the buttplate assembly for the A2 stock was changed as well, but that is another story. |
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ColdBlue sends...
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Originally Posted By coldblue:
M16A1 Buttstock Option <snip> View Quote Didn't the Canadians do exactly this, leading to the Colt "CS" marked stock with the C7 before moving to the C7A2 with the telescoping stock and "HH" buffer, suspiciously similar to the "new" sliding buttstock assembly now being issued by the Army for the M16A2 and A4? IMHO, it would be fantastic to have "CS" stocks widely available, and not bring the insane premium they do now, it seems that the U.S. fell behind the Canadians in terms of adapting their weapons for variable LOP. Then again, they got the TRIAD instead of the RAS (not to mention the C79) so I suppose it's a wash as far as overall adaptability goes. ![]() ~Augee |
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Super thread!!!
I guess as others commented, I will... I like the A2 grip. I use the little nub all the time as I pretty much live with my Smith carbine in-hand many months of the year and often carry it one-handed muzzle down more or less and the little nub makes that carry very easy and secure. I also do not understand the hate for the A2 length stock. I am 5'10" {after settling... LOL} and it is fine. I do naturally crawl the stock and maybe that is the reason I like the thing but it puts my left nostril right on the charger. I have trouble seeing how a guy taller than me would find the stock too short but that is the interesting thing about builds and such. Interesting how important this issue seems to be, tho, as other military forces, notably the British, have in past history issued various lengths of stock as standards. As for the US "stock option", I never did understand why spacers were not developed and issued. It seems like a brain-dead fix to a nagging problem. Set the stock at the "shortest" it can be within the contraints of the design and then simply have stacks of spacers and screws available to make good any shortfall. As for the zeroing, coldblue's fascinating explanations really tie the loose ends from the piles of dtic reports and published materials I've read together nice and neat. Thanks very much! I am not military and never have been. As such, for the work I do with the AR rifles, except for my target rifles, I find the military zero's basically worthless for most of my shooting of varmints and coyote bait whether with irons or glass, the latter adding an additional 1/2 inch of height over bore into the zeroing mix. I've also always wondered, simply from my own field experience which includes hunting all over the world but no military experience just how practical/impractical all that sight setting would be. Given time, well, sure, but time seems to be a commodity subject to high inflation in battle {as it is in the game fields}, so........assuming iron sights and assuming that somebody actually has a rangefinder to KNOW what the extended range is, a simple "holdover" printout stuck to the side of the stock would...I bet, serve nearly as well {or better even if it was quicker and also precluded forgetting to reset the sights after shooting...} as sight setting considering the real life difficulty that exists in SEEING a point target at 400 or 500 meters. No, critters don't stand up for the most part giving the shooter an "E" target to blaze away at. They naturally go to ground, just like I did when we used to get in stick fights as kids. Another factor that comes into play is in fact statistics, which gets off topic but the headspinning mathematical calculations presented in the British Army's 1929 Textbook of Small Arms "proving" the superior effectiveness of random fire vs aimed fire even on point targets makes a guy scratch his head, hard. Sometimes I wonder why military rifles don't just come sporting fixed Battue sights. |
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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?
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This has been a great history lesson, coldblue. It looks a lot like Ordnance still didn't like the M16, but since it was working well, they wanted to take credit for improving it - or at least not let the "driving force" in updates be seen as something other than the Ordnance Corps.
The whole idea of "corporate fingerprints" in this sort of program reeks. Putting great weapons in our Soldiers' and Marines' (and Airmen's and Sailors') hands should be THE overriding basis for absolutely everything Ordnance does, and yet there's a long and storied track record of the Ordnance Corps being bull-headed, more proud than smart, and obstructionist (to put things mildly), especially when it comes to the M16 family of weapons. |
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"--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
Heinlein |
Thank you for all the interesting information Colonel Lutz. I have one question - since the advent of the A2, several people have come out with 'Improved Battle Sight Zeros' such as the Santos BSZ. I was wondering what your take was on this, and if you had ever tried it. I've had one A2 set up like this and really liked it, and like the reasoning behind it. The sight is still capable of being adjusted for longer range suppression, but I favor the 'set it and forget it' theory behind it. Care to comment? Thank you again for your service and dedication to improving the platform. I have found this discussion fascinating.
ETA: I'm sure we'd love to hear more about the Brunton Bump as well. I understand the first ones were glued on? I can see a thin line of white around them in the pics we have available - what were they glued on with? Would love to know more. |
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A journey of a thousand pages begins with a single sentence.
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Originally Posted By Morg308:
Thank you for all the interesting information Colonel Lutz. I have one question - since the advent of the A2, several people have come out with 'Improved Battle Sight Zeros' such as the Santos BSZ. I was wondering what your take was on this, and if you had ever tried it. I've had one A2 set up like this and really liked it, and like the reasoning behind it. The sight is still capable of being adjusted for longer range suppression, but I favor the 'set it and forget it' theory behind it. Care to comment? Thank you again for your service and dedication to improving the platform. I have found this discussion fascinating. ETA: I'm sure we'd love to hear more about the Brunton Bump as well. I understand the first ones were glued on? I can see a thin line of white around them in the pics we have available - what were they glued on with? Would love to know more. View Quote All my AR's carry a Santos 200 meter zero at this time, including my A2's. Back then, I was changing so many things, to include "doctrine" I felt that changing the well established BZO any more than I was doing already inadvertently would be counter-productive. I mean like most of the Army's 25 meter zeroing ranges were literally "in concrete." I know that initially I wanted the Rifle Ranges to teach the large diameter rear aperture for the 200 yard/meter portions of annual requalification. But what I observed were coaches insisting on shooters using the smaller diameter rear set at the “300 ”and making front sight height adjustments between and at the 200 and 300 to help raise a shooter’s numerical score (so they thought, by using the more precise smaller aperture. This was anathema to me as the A2’s rear was specifically designed and intended to end the need for shooter’s to do this during requalification, rendering a complete safe weapon to allow the front sight post to be adjusted, etc. So I went back to the rear sight mechanism and determined that one could “slip the scale” down three rear sight clicks below the 300 mark, and then retighten the set screw, which gave you a 200 meter setting with the rear sight all the way down and then up one click so it was not bottomed-out. I wrote this procedure up and tried to get this change out to the Fleet. That is how my A2’s are set up, and they still are adjustable "up" to 800. I don't know the epoxy that Colt used, but I do remember it was light colored. And only one was knocked loose during operational testing, so the epoxy was pretty good (for those days)! |
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ColdBlue sends...
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Fascinating. Thank you for the reply Sir - hearing the inside skinny on these things is really a privilege. I always enjoy your posts.
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A journey of a thousand pages begins with a single sentence.
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Was there ever any discussion in that period about going to a telestock instead? Or shortening the barrel?
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Col. Lutz,
Thank you for the wonderful information. Also thank you for your service. I was issued an M16A1 in the Army in the early 70s, and really preferred its feel (weight, etc) to the A2, though from a practical point of view do think the A2 is more suited to battle. In the late 70s, I was in an Air Force SP unit, and we mainly had GAU-5A/As with 11.5 barrels and GAU-05/Ps with 14.5" 1/12 barrels. I really noticed a difference in my longer range shooting capabilities switching to the shorter barreled platform. What are your thoughts on the switch to the short barreled M4 platforms? Do you think it is a step backwards? I know it has a use in armored mounted and urban combat, but recent experiences in distant lands shows it lacking in long range performance. |
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This thread has been very interesting, especially the insider information from Col Lutz (is it Col or LtCol?)
I went from the C1A1 (FN SLR) and the C1 sub-machine gun (Sterling - which I loved and miss to this day) to the C7. I think Canada made the right choice sticking with the A1 sights - as I recall we went with the M16A1E2 configuration. Since he mentions the Canadian contribution of SS109 ammunition, I was wondering if the Canadian Small Arms Replacement Project (SARP) has much contact with Col Lutz and his organisation during the selection process? |
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Col. Lutz,
Thank you for the wonderful information and your service. This is an incredible thread, thanks Morg308 for letting me know about it. ![]() |
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I don't interest myself in "why". I think more often in terms of "when", sometimes "where" ? Always "how much" ?
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coldblue, what are your thoughts on the "gov't profile" barrel?
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-Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I. ~ One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.
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Originally Posted By gunnut003:
Read the thread from the beginning....it is only 4 pages, and He goes over it. On page 2 I believe. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By gunnut003:
Originally Posted By henschman:
coldblue, what are your thoughts on the "gov't profile" barrel? Read the thread from the beginning....it is only 4 pages, and He goes over it. On page 2 I believe. Right on... I somehow missed it. The gov't profile barrel is the only major drawback to the A2 IMO. It adds weight in the worst possible place for handling. I have to wonder just how prevalent bending of the barrel was in bayo drills to begin with. I don't think it was worth screwing up the handling characteristics of every rifle to prevent something that only happens to a small fraction of them, and which can be fixed by an armorer easily enough by re-barreling. |
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Originally Posted By henschman:
Right on... I somehow missed it. The gov't profile barrel is the only major drawback to the A2 IMO. It adds weight in the worst possible place for handling. I have to wonder just how prevalent bending of the barrel was in bayo drills to begin with. I don't think it was worth screwing up the handling characteristics of every rifle to prevent something that only happens to a small fraction of them, and which can be fixed by an armorer easily enough by re-barreling. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By henschman:
Originally Posted By gunnut003:
Originally Posted By henschman:
coldblue, what are your thoughts on the "gov't profile" barrel? Read the thread from the beginning....it is only 4 pages, and He goes over it. On page 2 I believe. Right on... I somehow missed it. The gov't profile barrel is the only major drawback to the A2 IMO. It adds weight in the worst possible place for handling. I have to wonder just how prevalent bending of the barrel was in bayo drills to begin with. I don't think it was worth screwing up the handling characteristics of every rifle to prevent something that only happens to a small fraction of them, and which can be fixed by an armorer easily enough by re-barreling. The A2 should have been the A1 with the addition of a two size peep aperture, a round front handguard and the furniture made of the same materials as the A2 we know now. Had the Army designed it that would have been the likely result I believe. |
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“What, indeed, is more brutal than a thought?" Paul Valery
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Lots of great information in here!
I happen to be a fan of most of the A2 improvements. I'm tall, so the longer stock fits me better than the A1 stock. I like the A2 grip, and I like the A2 sights so much that all of my AR-15s, including the ones that I made as clones of the M16/M16A1 have A2 posts and apertures. On the A1s I give up my range adjustment, but like Col. Lutz mentioned, the larger aperture is superior for short range targets. I realize the A2 hand-guards are superior for actual use due to their durability and ease of replacement, but I do happen to like the feel of the old A1 design. About the only thing I honestly dislike about the A2 is the heavier barrel profile. The A2 barreled rifles I have just don't feel as nice as the A1s. If I might ask, Col, what are your thoughts on the 1x9 twist barrels used on many of the AR-15s that are available? I understand that the 1x7 twist is actually faster than required unless you want to shoot the 64gr tracer in cold weather? |
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Like GSL, I went to basic training with an M16A1, used an M16A2 on my first deployment and an M4 on my second. Personally, I hate the nub on the A2 handgrip. It causes me finger pain after about 30 minutes of shooting. Fortunately, I'm a pretty decent shot and can zero in 9-12 rounds, so I don't run through 3-4 qualification rounds like 70% of my company needs to do.
When I finally get around to putting an AR together, I'm going to go with the Magpul MOE furniture. |
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The grip is irrelevant. A2 stock for the long arm win.
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R.I.P - SSG David H Gutierrez 25/12/2009 OEF 9-11
R.I.P - SPC Kyle J Wright 13/01/2010 OEF 9-11 R.I.P - PFC Jonathan C Yanney 18/08/2009 OEF 9-11 |
U. S. military rifle barrels are designed for bayonet use. In 1982, Aberdeen Proving Ground did a lot of testing on the M16A1 and M16A2 (then M16A1E1). One of the tests was the barrel bending test. The goal was to see how much weight it would take to give the barrel a permanent set so that a bore straightness gage would not pass freely through the bore. The bayonet lug was the fulcrum point and various loads were applied at three different points between the bayonet lug and the muzzle. It takes 483 pounds applied in a perpendicular direction to the barrel at a point 1.625 " from the muzzle (base of the flash hider) to permanently damage a M16A1 barrel. It took 759 pounds to do the same on the M16A2 barrel.
Reference: Department of the Army, Test & Evaluation Command. APG Report No. APG-MT-5746 Final Report Technical Feasibility Test of M16A1E1 Rifle. Aberdeen Proving Ground, MD: February 1983. |
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It is funny how barrel bending isn't really a concern with the M-14, FAL, G-3, SKS, AK-47, or any of the other rifles that have a light profile barrel with a bayonet mount on it. I suppose it is rare that anyone puts hundreds of pounds of pressure on the muzzle, directly perpendicular to the barrel, even with a bayonet. Sounds like a solution in search of a problem to me... without seeing any kind of numbers on how prevalent this supposed problem really was.
I wonder... did anyone ever suggest a free floated handguard on the M-16 back in those days? Seems like that would be the best solution to the wandering POI with sling versus bipod versus unsupported positions. |
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Originally Posted By vicious_cb:
Because the USMC wanted to turn a perfectly suitable combat rifle into a KD target rifle. View Quote I understand ARMY people thinking this. Of course... ARMY folks also thought the M16AX was only accurate out to 300 yards on man-sized targets (while us Marines annually hit man sized targets out to 500 yards). ![]() |
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It's 300 meters compared to 500 yards.
That's 450 meters. |
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“What, indeed, is more brutal than a thought?" Paul Valery
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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?
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No, 500 yards is 450 meters.
In other words, the difference isn't as big as people suspect it is. |
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“What, indeed, is more brutal than a thought?" Paul Valery
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Originally Posted By EVR:
Wrong. 300 meters is NOT 450 yards or meters and 450 meters is not 300 yards, or any combination thereof.... Off the top of my head, 300 meters is about 329 yards. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By EVR:
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
It's 300 meters compared to 500 yards. That's 450 meters. Wrong. 300 meters is NOT 450 yards or meters and 450 meters is not 300 yards, or any combination thereof.... Off the top of my head, 300 meters is about 329 yards. A meter is 39.370". You can round that to 40 and multiply that by the number of meters, then divide by 36 to get yards. With that estimate, 500 yards is exactly 450 meters. Using the more accurate 39.370", you find that 450 meters is 492.125 yards. Using a 40" estimate, 300 meters is about 333 1/3 yards, while with the more precise numbers, 300 meters comes out to 328.083 yards (328 yards plus 3 inches). |
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"--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
Heinlein |
yup...
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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?
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Originally Posted By Der_Hans:
Lots of great information in here! I happen to be a fan of most of the A2 improvements. I'm tall, so the longer stock fits me better than the A1 stock. I like the A2 grip, and I like the A2 sights so much that all of my AR-15s, including the ones that I made as clones of the M16/M16A1 have A2 posts and apertures. On the A1s I give up my range adjustment, but like Col. Lutz mentioned, the larger aperture is superior for short range targets. I realize the A2 hand-guards are superior for actual use due to their durability and ease of replacement, but I do happen to like the feel of the old A1 design. About the only thing I honestly dislike about the A2 is the heavier barrel profile. The A2 barreled rifles I have just don't feel as nice as the A1s. If I might ask, Col, what are your thoughts on the 1x9 twist barrels used on many of the AR-15s that are available? I understand that the 1x7 twist is actually faster than required unless you want to shoot the 64gr tracer in cold weather? View Quote the 1:9 option was a popular option at the final decision point on twist. But a wise ammo engineer at Picatinny, Mr. Dennis Conway, suggested to me that although the 1:9 would be ok, the 1:7 would build-in "growth potential" for future ammo improvements. I went with the growth potential and very glad I did. He was right "5 by 5," but it took a while for the Mk262 to make its mark, and of course it does need the quicker twist...but of course, that's another story |
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ColdBlue sends...
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In the real world off-campus, good marksmanship trumps good will.
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