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Whatever happened to 6.8? (Page 2 of 4)
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Originally Posted By BM1455: I still have a little SSA 110 and 115gr around. My original was a Ruger 556 in 6.8 which was not the spec II chamber so I never purchased any of the hotter rounds they made. Now I wish I had for my new 6.8-II rifles. Sometimes you can buy 90gr rounds from Cavity Back Bullets, that makes them. They make a bunch of different offerings but they are for the hotter spec-II chamber only. There is 6.8SPC 110gr Pro Hunter ammo in stock now that will run fine in your gun. We ran into a batch of NOS projectiles and loaded them up. CBB |
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Originally Posted By cttb: Lots of people like 6.8 for a lot of good reasons, but pretty much nobody is newly adopting it. That's been the case for at least 10 years. It would be interesting for the 6.8 users in this thread to post the year they first got a 6.8 AR. The 6.8SPC is to the AR15 as the .276 Pederson was to the Garand and also as the 16 gauge in the Winchester Model 12 pump. A great cartridge that got waylaid by history. The 6.5G hit it on the long range accuracy side and the just good enough .300BO got it on the low end & subsonics. In all honesty among ourselves, the average user if handed a loaded AR with non-headstamped ammo, or even any other rifle, and used it either hunting or on a range wouldn't be able to tell the difference between 6.8SPC or 6.5G or 6ARC. All three will effectively put holes in deer/pigs/paper. The 6.8SPC won't stop what it does just like the .45-70Gvt keeps on going. The 6.8SPC only lost in market appeal just as the .45-70's ballistically superior, the .40-65Win isn't in new production either. No one wants either anymore. The 6mm ARC is going to do the same to my favorite, the 6.5G. I've changed my mind on this new build from 6.5G to 6ARC since I can get ammo at either WalMart or local feed store for it. And that is how it is in 2026. |
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One thing that is talked about little is that the 6.8 SPC is the small cartridge reloader/tinkerers dream. It hit pressure very slowly. .5 grain increments when searching for pressure up top. VS a .220 Russian based case where you have to work up at .2 grains before it becomes belted. At 58500 rated pressure in SPCII there is a lot of steam available. A search will find info on my 22in 3R barreled rifle set up to 2.42 COAL (mod mags and lower and upper) that runs a 130gr Berger Classic Hunter @ 2850 fps and .5 MOA. Its reliability is second only to the 5.56. This is because of the magazine stack angle. A .441 case head diameter will always feed less reliably than a .422 case head in an AR15 magazine. It just hits harder than a 6.5 or 6mm. Back in 2008 there was a report than came out comparing 6mm, 6.5mm, 6.8 and 7mm. 6.8 won that one. The new 6.8x51 also proved the same thing. The military again looked at 6mm, 25 cal, 6.5mm, 6.8 and 7mm. With 6.8 again coming up the winner. It's the diameter of the projectile and the frontal cross section. Sectional density matter in the air. How large something expands also matters in the soft target. That's because the expanded sectional density is what matters in the soft target. TSD terminal sectional density. This is what determines penetration. The 6.8 shines in this area. YMMV |
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Originally Posted By wganz: The 6mm ARC is going to do the same to my favorite, the 6.5G. I've changed my mind on this new build from 6.5G to 6ARC since I can get ammo at either WalMart or local feed store for it. And that is how it is in 2026. Probably. Many people that like Grendel (I'm one) tend to underestimate the significance of losing the cheap steel cased ammo to Grendel's loss of its dominance of the small frame AR supersoinc segment. While hairs can be split about this or that between 6 ARC, 6.5 Grendel, and 6.8 SPC, the practical reality is that 6 ARC is the superior target round. The performance gap increases with distance. For hunting, they are all suitable for medium game at short to medium ranges, none are well-suited for big game or medium game at long ranges, and there aren't any animals that are going to die or run significantly different when shot with one round versus another in the same place from the same distance with the same type bullet. It's not like a deer shot at 150 with 6.8 drops dead while one shot with 6 ARC in the same place frolicks off. The kind of hunting people do with these rounds just doesn't demand all that much from the round. Shot placement, not cartridge, will be the difference maker here. |
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Originally Posted By cttb: Probably. Many people that like Grendel (I'm one) tend to underestimate the significance of losing the cheap steel cased ammo to Grendel's loss of its dominance of the small frame AR supersoinc segment. While hairs can be split about this or that between 6 ARC, 6.5 Grendel, and 6.8 SPC, the practical reality is that 6 ARC is the superior target round. The performance gap increases with distance. For hunting, they are all suitable for medium game at short to medium ranges, none are well-suited for big game or medium game at long ranges, and there aren't any animals that are going to die or run significantly different when shot with one round versus another in the same place from the same distance with the same type bullet. It's not like a deer shot at 150 with 6.8 drops dead while one shot with 6 ARC in the same place frolicks off. The kind of hunting people do with these rounds just doesn't demand all that much from the round. Shot placement, not cartridge, will be the difference maker here. Originally Posted By cttb: Originally Posted By wganz: The 6mm ARC is going to do the same to my favorite, the 6.5G. I've changed my mind on this new build from 6.5G to 6ARC since I can get ammo at either WalMart or local feed store for it. And that is how it is in 2026. Probably. Many people that like Grendel (I'm one) tend to underestimate the significance of losing the cheap steel cased ammo to Grendel's loss of its dominance of the small frame AR supersoinc segment. While hairs can be split about this or that between 6 ARC, 6.5 Grendel, and 6.8 SPC, the practical reality is that 6 ARC is the superior target round. The performance gap increases with distance. For hunting, they are all suitable for medium game at short to medium ranges, none are well-suited for big game or medium game at long ranges, and there aren't any animals that are going to die or run significantly different when shot with one round versus another in the same place from the same distance with the same type bullet. It's not like a deer shot at 150 with 6.8 drops dead while one shot with 6 ARC in the same place frolicks off. The kind of hunting people do with these rounds just doesn't demand all that much from the round. Shot placement, not cartridge, will be the difference maker here. I'm not so prepared to say a 107 6mm is the same as a 150 6.8mm in performance. A mediocre shot with that heavier bulletwill still get results when a mediocre shot with the other - maybe not. Indeed Bill Alexander looked very hard at making 6mm Grendel, vs 6.5. And found 6mm just didn't have quite the ass at killing game as he wanted. 6.5 Grendel threads the needle as the better general purpose round for all of the above, and I like general purpose, so still prefer Grendel. Grendel does good at a 500 yard target, 6MM ARC does better. 6.5 Grendel does better at doing stuff when it hits stuff. 6.8 even more so. But it's distance usage isnt satisfying to me. and yes, .27 cent ammo sealed the deal. Losing that does suck hard. but 6.5 Grendel still the best general purpose round. |
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Originally Posted By Yama_Raja: One thing that is talked about little is that the 6.8 SPC is the small cartridge reloader/tinkerers dream. It hit pressure very slowly. .5 grain increments when searching for pressure up top. VS a .220 Russian based case where you have to work up at .2 grains before it becomes belted. At 58500 rated pressure in SPCII there is a lot of steam available. A search will find info on my 22in 3R barreled rifle set up to 2.42 COAL (mod mags and lower and upper) that runs a 130gr Berger Classic Hunter @ 2850 fps and .5 MOA. Its reliability is second only to the 5.56. This is because of the magazine stack angle. A .441 case head diameter will always feed less reliably than a .422 case head in an AR15 magazine. It just hits harder than a 6.5 or 6mm. Back in 2008 there was a report than came out comparing 6mm, 6.5mm, 6.8 and 7mm. 6.8 won that one. The new 6.8x51 also proved the same thing. The military again looked at 6mm, 25 cal, 6.5mm, 6.8 and 7mm. With 6.8 again coming up the winner. It's the diameter of the projectile and the frontal cross section. Sectional density matter in the air. How large something expands also matters in the soft target. That's because the expanded sectional density is what matters in the soft target. TSD terminal sectional density. This is what determines penetration. The 6.8 shines in this area. YMMV @Yama_Raja I seem to remember you posting some good info concerning 6.8 SPC performance. I know you and another member use to go at it quite spirited LOL reference the 6.8 vs. the 6.5. I have all of them... 6.8, 6.5, 6 ARC, TAC 30, 6x45, 22 ARC, etc. and for me, they all kill just as good. If I had to pick JUST ONE... it would be a toss up between the 6.8 and the 6 ARC. My 6.5G hasn't seen any action lately, I guess I need to remedy that. |
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Originally Posted By HighpowerRifleBrony: I wish I had a longer AR action to take advantage of 6mm WOA. Does it not work well in a standard action? Isn't that what he designed it around? |
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Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: Does it not work well in a standard action? Isn't that what he designed it around? Click To View Spoiler Its 45mm brass . The bullet is seated pretty deep to comply with the 2.26 coal . Pretty much the same situation with the 6x45 . If you could load out to about 2.6" or more itd be great . I know someone who may be interested in cutting an sfar/pof pattern lower for as ar15 width mag . Thatd go well with some 375 win brass with the rims turned off. * oops , was thinking of the 6mm Hagar . Rough day . |
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Originally Posted By glock23c: I got my first one (Stag 16") around 2010 or so. A guy on here had a business and went by Pete in NH if I remember right. |
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Originally Posted By FoxValleyTacDriver: Just doesnt have the range. Eclipsed by 6mm arc. But I remember people thought it would be the new prevalent round 6mmARC And 6.8 Spc Are rather far apart on the spectrum. Two very different rounds with 2 different purposes. Nobody is going to pick a 6mmARC over a 6.8 for 75 yard hunting anything. Everybody will pick 6mmARC for 600 yard gong banging. Meanwhile 6.5 Grendel will do both of those about as well. |
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer: 6mmARC And 6.8 Spc Are rather far apart on the spectrum. Two very different rounds with 2 different purposes. Nobody is going to pick a 6mmARC over a 6.8 for 75 yard hunting anything. Everybody will pick 6mmARC for 600 yard gong banging. Meanwhile 6.5 Grendel will do both of those about as well. With regards to what happened to the 6.8spc , it was basically the leading edge of a singular movement. The only thing that really happened to it was the initial commercial launch by Remington that was botched . Its commercial trajectory drop may have been hastened by that and the grendel competition. The Grendel wss right there but also had some detractors imposed by the creator .Its final copyright relaese and steelcase introduction gave it a boost . There have been a whole slew of cartridges introduced in that design envelope over the past 20 years that tweaked performance this way or that. Statistically the same case volume and pressure , just dialing bullet frontal area , bc , and sd to hit different parameters. All constrained by bolt size and 2.26 coal. Towards the end of that 20 years we saw the introduction of the sfar/pof pattern that pushed the ar10 into the ar15 envelope that brought the 2.8xcoal . I think we'll see more hybridization in the near future as the ar15 takes advantage of that coal benefit . |
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer: 6mmARC And 6.8 Spc Are rather far apart on the spectrum. Two very different rounds with 2 different purposes. Nobody is going to pick a 6mmARC over a 6.8 for 75 yard hunting anything. Everybody will pick 6mmARC for 600 yard gong banging. Meanwhile 6.5 Grendel will do both of those about as well. They're really not very far apart, which is 6.8's problem. The energy data is from Hornady's website. It illustrates the general proposition that all three rounds are six one half a dozen the other for hunting. It's medium and longer range target shooting where the differences show up. 103 grain ELD-X 6 ARC 24" barrel 1793 ft lbs muzzle 1573 100 yards 1375 200 yards 1197 300 yards 120 grain SST 6.8 SPC 16" barrel 1612 ft lbs muzzle 1349 100 yards 1121 200 yards 925 300 yards 123 grain SST 6.5 Grendel 24" barrel 1818 ft lbs muzzle 1586 100 yards 1379 200 yards 1193 300 yards Once you account for the shorter barrel for the 6.8, they're all going to give you basically the same short range hunting performance. If I have to pick one just for short range hunting, sure, I'll pick the 6.8, but not many people are going to do that, as reflected by current market conditions. |
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Originally Posted By cttb: They're really not very far apart, which is 6.8's problem. The energy data is from Hornady's website. It illustrates the general proposition that all three rounds are six one half a dozen the other for hunting. It's medium and longer range target shooting where the differences show up. 103 grain ELD-X 6 ARC 24" barrel 1793 ft lbs muzzle 1573 100 yards 1375 200 yards 1197 300 yards 120 grain SST 6.8 SPC 16" barrel 1612 ft lbs muzzle 1349 100 yards 1121 200 yards 925 300 yards 123 grain SST 6.5 Grendel 24" barrel 1818 ft lbs muzzle 1586 100 yards 1379 200 yards 1193 300 yards Once you account for the shorter barrel for the 6.8, they're all going to give you basically the same short range hunting performance. If I have to pick one just for short range hunting, sure, I'll pick the 6.8, but not many people are going to do that, as reflected by current market conditions. Originally Posted By cttb: Originally Posted By lazyengineer: 6mmARC And 6.8 Spc Are rather far apart on the spectrum. Two very different rounds with 2 different purposes. Nobody is going to pick a 6mmARC over a 6.8 for 75 yard hunting anything. Everybody will pick 6mmARC for 600 yard gong banging. Meanwhile 6.5 Grendel will do both of those about as well. They're really not very far apart, which is 6.8's problem. The energy data is from Hornady's website. It illustrates the general proposition that all three rounds are six one half a dozen the other for hunting. It's medium and longer range target shooting where the differences show up. 103 grain ELD-X 6 ARC 24" barrel 1793 ft lbs muzzle 1573 100 yards 1375 200 yards 1197 300 yards 120 grain SST 6.8 SPC 16" barrel 1612 ft lbs muzzle 1349 100 yards 1121 200 yards 925 300 yards 123 grain SST 6.5 Grendel 24" barrel 1818 ft lbs muzzle 1586 100 yards 1379 200 yards 1193 300 yards Once you account for the shorter barrel for the 6.8, they're all going to give you basically the same short range hunting performance. If I have to pick one just for short range hunting, sure, I'll pick the 6.8, but not many people are going to do that, as reflected by current market conditions. Interesting analysis and thanks for taking the time to share. This is one of those on-going conversation topics for sure! Me - I'm not the authority on hunting and terminal ballistics, by far. But from what I can tell "Energy" comparisons can be misleading. A little 105 bullet with that small profile, vs a heavier 6.8 with that bigger face; isn't quite the same comparison, even if "energy" alone says they are. Between the two, the 6.8 is in general considered the more likely to give better results from a mediocre shot - from what I can tell at least. Hunters can likely give a better explanation. Heck, you know what - AI is getting scary-smart Scary fast, I'll ask it now, circa April 2026: "... The main difference you noted — the 6.8 SPC’s fatter (.277" vs .243"), wider, and heavier bullets (usually 110–120 gr vs 95–108 gr for the ARC) — gives it a modest edge in terminal ballistics at this distance. The larger frontal area creates a noticeably wider permanent wound channel and slightly better straight-line penetration, especially on angled shots or tougher hogs. Multiple hunters and barrier/gel tests describe the 6.8 as hitting hogs “noticeably better” and preferring it for close-range game work, while the 6mm ARC’s narrower, faster bullet can sometimes produce a slightly smaller wound channel (still lethal, but less “smashing” on big-bodied animals).." So basically, that, the heavier bullet and wider would channel make 6.8 the better round at imperfect shots and shot placement. It's not "one is crap" vs the other so much, but one is the better choice than the other, and energy comparisons alone don't really capture that. That said, the improvement of 6.8 vs 6mmARC, while probably not quite trivial, isn't as night/day as I was expecting either. I personally wouldn't chose 6mmARC over 6.5 Grendel for anything other than distance precision. And if I'm doing distance precision, why am I using a light-weight AR platform? And why am I not sending 6.5 Creedmoor?- is basically where I'm at. So for me, and my goals, I consider 6mmARC a fairly pointless round, since a light weight platform like an AR for 600+ yard shots where it shines, isn't the platform I want for such shots. It's hard to hold that gun as steady. For me, for precision shooting at distance I prefer something a little more stable or heavy. And I want it to hit with authority, at that distance. So at least something like an SFAR if I want to maximize weight to performance, sending 6.5 Creedmoor. I know - the market doesn't agree, and the 6mmARC love is huge, because it is a flat shooting accurate round. For someone who bench range-shoots a lot, 6mmARC is pretty great. But for what I'm wanting to do, Grendel remains the better choice - to me, and for me. I'm the minority on that one; most people don't really agree - but that's where I'm at. |
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I've been into 6.8 since 2016. I built them to hunt with, but I've also done a ton of steel shooting out to 600 with the 115 match bullets. I've got right at 4,000 rounds thru 2 rifles. I run them at 12.5" and 14.5" and they are extremely handy for deer hunting here in MO. My shots are under 200, usually under 100. I hunt with handloaded 90 grain Gold Dots. They just plain work. This 12.5" might be the last rifle I would ever have. There's not a whole lot you couldn't do with it in my opinion. Attached File |
| Before the Peoples Paradise of NewYorkistan passed the UnSafe Act in the middle of the night in 2012 one of my favorite hunting rifles was a 16" AR I assembled in 6.8 SPC II. Topped with a 1x4 illuminated reticle scope it was my do everything (including foul weather) deer and predator hunting rifle. The areas I hunted never saw a shot over 150 yard and most of the time was inside 75 yards. Perfect for that type of hunting. I mostly fed it SSA 110 gr. Pro Hunter ammo but had very good luck with handloading Speer 100 gr. soft points that were available in bulk packs. I sure do miss hunting with that rifle. If I am ever lucky enough to move to a "free state" I will build another 6.8 probably in 12.5" flavor with a suppressor. |
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^I grab popcorn, sit back and enjoy reading the 6.X knife fights. The reason 6ARC is coming on so strong is because of one word...."Hornady" Between marketing and ammo pricing subsidies, they are trying to push their ARC stuff everywhere. 6.5G losing steel ammo stung. I still like 6MAX because of the bolt and 350L mags, but that is another story. |
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Interesting analysis and thanks for taking the time to share. This is one of those on-going conversation topics for sure! Me - I'm not the authority on hunting and terminal ballistics, by far. But from what I can tell "Energy" comparisons can be misleading. A little 105 bullet with that small profile, vs a heavier 6.8 with that bigger face; isn't quite the same comparison, even if "energy" alone says they are. Between the two, the 6.8 is in general considered the more likely to give better results from a mediocre shot - from what I can tell at least. Hunters can likely give a better explanation. Heck, you know what - AI is getting scary-smart Scary fast, I'll ask it now, circa April 2026: "... The main difference you noted — the 6.8 SPC’s fatter (.277" vs .243"), wider, and heavier bullets (usually 110–120 gr vs 95–108 gr for the ARC) — gives it a modest edge in terminal ballistics at this distance. The larger frontal area creates a noticeably wider permanent wound channel and slightly better straight-line penetration, especially on angled shots or tougher hogs. Multiple hunters and barrier/gel tests describe the 6.8 as hitting hogs “noticeably better” and preferring it for close-range game work, while the 6mm ARC’s narrower, faster bullet can sometimes produce a slightly smaller wound channel (still lethal, but less “smashing” on big-bodied animals).." So basically, that, the heavier bullet and wider would channel make 6.8 the better round at imperfect shots and shot placement. It's not "one is crap" vs the other so much, but one is the better choice than the other, and energy comparisons alone don't really capture that. That said, the improvement of 6.8 vs 6mmARC, while probably not quite trivial, isn't as night/day as I was expecting either. I personally wouldn't chose 6mmARC over 6.5 Grendel for anything other than distance precision. And if I'm doing distance precision, why am I using a light-weight AR platform? And why am I not sending 6.5 Creedmoor?- is basically where I'm at. So for me, and my goals, I consider 6mmARC a fairly pointless round, since a light weight platform like an AR for 600+ yard shots where it shines, isn't the platform I want for such shots. It's hard to hold that gun as steady. For me, for precision shooting at distance I prefer something a little more stable or heavy. And I want it to hit with authority, at that distance. So at least something like an SFAR if I want to maximize weight to performance, sending 6.5 Creedmoor. I know - the market doesn't agree, and the 6mmARC love is huge, because it is a flat shooting accurate round. For someone who bench range-shoots a lot, 6mmARC is pretty great. But for what I'm wanting to do, Grendel remains the better choice - to me, and for me. I'm the minority on that one; most people don't really agree - but that's where I'm at. To be clear, I'm not arguing which small frame AR variant is best or telling people what cartridge to shoot or what to shoot it in. I'm trying to answer the OP's question: What happened to 6.8? The answers are straightforward. Other rounds developed that are objectively better at longer ranges; one had really cheap ammo for a good while; and 6.8's perceived advantage--more oomph at short range for game--is between non-existent and marginal for practical purposes. Of course foot pounds is an imperfect predictor of terminal performance, but at least its objective and measurable. Look at sectional density too. For the bullets I listed, it's .252 for 6.5, .249 for 6 ARC, and .223 for 6.8. Objective measurables just don't bear out the idea that there's some big short range terminal performance gap between 6.8 and its competitors. This is part of the reason 6.8 isn't getting newly adopted much. A reason some people stick with small frame ARs for distance shooting is to stay within certain classifications for competition. |
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Originally Posted By panthermark: ^I grab popcorn, sit back and enjoy reading the 6.X knife fights. The reason 6ARC is coming on so strong is because of one word...."Hornady" Between marketing and ammo pricing subsidies, they are trying to push their ARC stuff everywhere. 6.5G losing steel ammo stung. I still like 6MAX because of the bolt and 350L mags, but that is another story. It's not just marketing it's the total rollout they've mastered. They are the reason a lot of "newer" popular rounds got established so quickly and continue to do well. The Creedmoor's, the PRC's, 300 Blackout, now the ARC's. Them leaning into 6.5 Grendel definitely helped it a lot. Whoever came up with the system they are a part of where all the manufacturers are on the same page so the guns, ammo, bullets, and barrels all work together from the jump is a hero. |
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Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: It's not just marketing it's the total rollout they've mastered. They are the reason a lot of "newer" popular rounds got established so quickly and continue to do well. The Creedmoor's, the PRC's, 300 Blackout, now the ARC's. Them leaning into 6.5 Grendel definitely helped it a lot. Whoever came up with the system they are a part of where all the manufacturers are on the same page so the guns, ammo, bullets, and barrels all work together from the jump is a hero. Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: Originally Posted By panthermark: ^I grab popcorn, sit back and enjoy reading the 6.X knife fights. The reason 6ARC is coming on so strong is because of one word...."Hornady" Between marketing and ammo pricing subsidies, they are trying to push their ARC stuff everywhere. 6.5G losing steel ammo stung. I still like 6MAX because of the bolt and 350L mags, but that is another story. It's not just marketing it's the total rollout they've mastered. They are the reason a lot of "newer" popular rounds got established so quickly and continue to do well. The Creedmoor's, the PRC's, 300 Blackout, now the ARC's. Them leaning into 6.5 Grendel definitely helped it a lot. Whoever came up with the system they are a part of where all the manufacturers are on the same page so the guns, ammo, bullets, and barrels all work together from the jump is a hero. Not so well mastered for .30 Super Carry or .21 Sharp... |
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Originally Posted By Yama_Raja: There is 6.8SPC 110gr Pro Hunter ammo in stock now that will run fine in your gun. We ran into a batch of NOS projectiles and loaded them up. CBB Are they OK for my old Ruger spec-I or for my newer spec-II's? Just checking for clearification. |
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Originally Posted By backbencher: Not so well mastered for .30 Super Carry or .21 Sharp... The roll out for 6.8 spc went pretty well . The unfortunate part was Remington neutering the round from the get go with SAAMI. I think the round has a solid 20 more years , which is longer than ill be an active shooter most likely. Better than the 30 sc or 21 sharp most likely. |
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Originally Posted By backbencher: Not so well mastered for .30 Super Carry or .21 Sharp... Originally Posted By backbencher: Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: Originally Posted By panthermark: ^I grab popcorn, sit back and enjoy reading the 6.X knife fights. The reason 6ARC is coming on so strong is because of one word...."Hornady" Between marketing and ammo pricing subsidies, they are trying to push their ARC stuff everywhere. 6.5G losing steel ammo stung. I still like 6MAX because of the bolt and 350L mags, but that is another story. It's not just marketing it's the total rollout they've mastered. They are the reason a lot of "newer" popular rounds got established so quickly and continue to do well. The Creedmoor's, the PRC's, 300 Blackout, now the ARC's. Them leaning into 6.5 Grendel definitely helped it a lot. Whoever came up with the system they are a part of where all the manufacturers are on the same page so the guns, ammo, bullets, and barrels all work together from the jump is a hero. Not so well mastered for .30 Super Carry or .21 Sharp... Remington and Winchester there. Not the same machine. I don't know anything about the Sharp but the 30 Super carry was a real disappointment. I think it has a ton of potential but not done well. |
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Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: Remington and Winchester there. Not the same machine. I don't know anything about the Sharp but the 30 Super carry was a real disappointment. I think it has a ton of potential but not done well. Imagine if remington got the SAAMI right and steelcase ammo showed up three years later. I doubt we'd be talking about grendel and ARC . |
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I’ve seen several comments that say “nobody is newly adopting the 6.8”. I would say in today’s market most shooters are staying with 5.56 due to cost. They don’t hunt or shoot past 100 yards, have to pick up a few boxes of ammo on the way to the range and have the cheapest optic, on their ar15 possible, that needs to be re-zeroed every trip to the range. In my area 6.8, 6.5 grendel, .300 blk and 6 arc ammo sits on the shelves while 223/5.56 sells. Comparing 6.5 grendel vs 6.8 ammo on a quick search: 6.5 wolf steel case fmj at 68 cents per 1000s rounds, 6.8 s&b brass case fmj at 80 cents per 1000s rounds. 12 cents extra for a reloadable brass case on the 6.8. The 6.8 forum is fairly active on the new member introductions, “no one is newly adopting it” is bs. Guys that currently use or newly adopt one of the 6x variants are serious shooters and choose one based on the performance envelope they are looking for. Comparing the cost of ammo between the variants in today’s market is dumb, plinking pricing on any small frame ar caliber is long gone. The 6.8 is going strong even without marketing from hornady like the 6arc has. If I had more fun money I might dabble with the 6 arc and build one with the same length barrel as my 6.8. I’d like to experience the 6 arc “eclipse” 6.8 spc myself. |
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Originally Posted By Ossian: I’ve seen several comments that say “nobody is newly adopting the 6.8”. I would say in today’s market most shooters are staying with 5.56 due to cost. They don’t hunt or shoot past 100 yards, have to pick up a few boxes of ammo on the way to the range and have the cheapest optic, on their ar15 possible, that needs to be re-zeroed every trip to the range. In my area 6.8, 6.5 grendel, .300 blk and 6 arc ammo sits on the shelves while 223/5.56 sells. Comparing 6.5 grendel vs 6.8 ammo on a quick search: 6.5 wolf steel case fmj at 68 cents per 1000s rounds, 6.8 s&b brass case fmj at 80 cents per 1000s rounds. 12 cents extra for a reloadable brass case on the 6.8. The 6.8 forum is fairly active on the new member introductions, “no one is newly adopting it” is bs. Guys that currently use or newly adopt one of the 6x variants are serious shooters and choose one based on the performance envelope they are looking for. Comparing the cost of ammo between the variants in today’s market is dumb, plinking pricing on any small frame ar caliber is long gone. The 6.8 is going strong even without marketing from hornady like the 6arc has. If I had more fun money I might dabble with the 6 arc and build one with the same length barrel as my 6.8. I’d like to experience the 6 arc “eclipse” 6.8 spc myself. Good points . Advertising and articles are going to be all new product biased. Itd be interesting to know the total number of barrels out in the wild for a particular chambering . |
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I thought 6.8 was better suited for more "purposeful" shooting than several other cartridges alternative AR rounds, but I can understand why it faltered. I do have to ask a question, and forget Grendel/ARC/MAX for a moment. Why pick 6.8spc over: 300Ham'r 350 Legend 7.62x39 (AK or AR) .243 Winchester 30-30 for "purpose" shooting? |
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Originally Posted By cttb: After 6.5 Grendel's kinks got worked out (about 15 years ago) and when $.25 per round Grendel ammo was available (up until 5 years ago), there was no compelling reason to build a 6.8 SPC AR. People all but stopped newly adopting the round. By the time ammo cost became the same as Grendel again, 6.8 had lost too much steam. Beyond that, both Grendel and 6 ARC perform significantly better at medium and long ranges than 6.8 and are easier to get outstanding accuracy from. Whatever advantages 6.8 might have over those rounds for short range hunting are minimal, while its medium and long range target disadvantages are significant. Lots of people like 6.8 for a lot of good reasons, but pretty much nobody is newly adopting it. That's been the case for at least 10 years. It would be interesting for the 6.8 users in this thread to post the year they first got a 6.8 AR. At longer ranges the 6.5 is better for hunting paper, neither the 6.8 or the 6.5 have enough energy left to humanly hunt. |
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Originally Posted By panthermark: I thought 6.8 was better suited for more "purposeful" shooting than several other cartridges alternative AR rounds, but I can understand why it faltered. I do have to ask a question, and forget Grendel/ARC/MAX for a moment. Why pick 6.8spc over: 300Ham'r 350 Legend 7.62x39 (AK or AR) .243 Winchester 30-30 for "purpose" shooting? I'm not sure what you mean by purpose but I'll take a shot. Bottom line is that there are a ton of rounds that work great. 243 and 30-30 seem weird to compare because they don't fit in an AR15. 300 Ham'r makes 6.8 seem mainstream. I'm guessing they are pretty close with similar weight bulelts. 6.8 has been established longer so if they do go away brass is probably easier. 350 Legend seems like it working out. Biggest issue I can think of is that they are still working on high cap mags I think. The bigger straightwalls definitely lose a few rounds. The 7.62x39 is solid. There are proven mags guns and ammo. 6.8 is a proven performer and also has good mags and a strong bolt(even though that seems to be less of a problem nowadays). I've said for a long time that if I carried an AR and someone else paid for the ammo I would absolutely consider 6.8 probably in a Six8. I think that the 6.5 Grendel and 6 ARC are all right there. |
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Originally Posted By panthermark: I thought 6.8 was better suited for more "purposeful" shooting than several other cartridges alternative AR rounds, but I can understand why it faltered. I do have to ask a question, and forget Grendel/ARC/MAX for a moment. Why pick 6.8spc over: 300Ham'r 350 Legend 7.62x39 (AK or AR) .243 Winchester 30-30 for "purpose" shooting? 350L found it's niche in states with restrictions during hunting seasons (straight-walled cases in certain zones.) |
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Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: I'm not sure what you mean by purpose but I'll take a shot. Bottom line is that there are a ton of rounds that work great. 243 and 30-30 seem weird to compare because they don't fit in an AR15. 300 Ham'r makes 6.8 seem mainstream. I'm guessing they are pretty close with similar weight bulelts. 6.8 has been established longer so if they do go away brass is probably easier. 350 Legend seems like it working out. Biggest issue I can think of is that they are still working on high cap mags I think. The bigger straightwalls definitely lose a few rounds. The 7.62x39 is solid. There are proven mags guns and ammo. 6.8 is a proven performer and also has good mags and a strong bolt(even though that seems to be less of a problem nowadays). I've said for a long time that if I carried an AR and someone else paid for the ammo I would absolutely consider 6.8 probably in a Six8. I think that the 6.5 Grendel and 6 ARC are all right there. Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: Originally Posted By panthermark: I thought 6.8 was better suited for more "purposeful" shooting than several other cartridges alternative AR rounds, but I can understand why it faltered. I do have to ask a question, and forget Grendel/ARC/MAX for a moment. Why pick 6.8spc over: 300Ham'r 350 Legend 7.62x39 (AK or AR) .243 Winchester 30-30 for "purpose" shooting? I'm not sure what you mean by purpose but I'll take a shot. Bottom line is that there are a ton of rounds that work great. 243 and 30-30 seem weird to compare because they don't fit in an AR15. 300 Ham'r makes 6.8 seem mainstream. I'm guessing they are pretty close with similar weight bulelts. 6.8 has been established longer so if they do go away brass is probably easier. 350 Legend seems like it working out. Biggest issue I can think of is that they are still working on high cap mags I think. The bigger straightwalls definitely lose a few rounds. The 7.62x39 is solid. There are proven mags guns and ammo. 6.8 is a proven performer and also has good mags and a strong bolt(even though that seems to be less of a problem nowadays). I've said for a long time that if I carried an AR and someone else paid for the ammo I would absolutely consider 6.8 probably in a Six8. I think that the 6.5 Grendel and 6 ARC are all right there. The 30-30 is pertinent since its quite possibly one of the most prolific hunting cartridges in the past 120 years . What is interesting is that the 6.8 was derived from its rimless copy , the 30 remington. The 6.8 is then beefed up to run 54ish ksi with 35ish gr capacity....thats about equal to the 30-30's 45gr at 42ksi . Essentially a 7-30waters ...just the American 7mm ( .270) . BC is greatly improved over the 30-30 . The x39 is generally weaker than the 30-30 but gets treated pretty equal also because the bc helps it out a bit . As it trails the 30-30 , so too does the 300blk trail the x39 . The 300hmr comes closer to the 30-30 . 243 is one i cant square with a 6.8 comparison. 6 arc would make more sense in some kind of 243 comparo |
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Sorry, didn't mean .243, I have 6mmMAX on the brain (I'm really curious about that one if NAS3 cases are made availble). By purpose I mean it isn't a "mag dump a pile of dirt with an FRT" cartridge. It is your go to for deer/hogs out of an AR. Outside of 7.62x39 (if you are sitting on piles of old ammo), most alternate 5.56 small frame cartridges are purpose driven due to cost/availability of ammo, especially supersonic cartridges. I think a new cartridge needs to win at least 2 out of 3 "battles" to win the "war". 6.8 won 1 out of 3. It won the ballistics battle in terms of what is was designed to do (be a better 5.56 out of an M4). That capability gave it an excellent civilian use case. (The reason why it isn't dead dead) But it lost the logistics battle and the marketing battle. |
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Originally Posted By RogueSpear2023: 6.5 Grendel killed it. The 338 ARC is based off the 6.8spc so it may come back. The Grendel didnt kill the 6.8. In fact right now the 6.8 is ahead of the Grendel. The 6mmARC is killing the Grendel. Both ARC cartridges are based off the 220 Russian. Just like the 7.62x39, Grendel ect, anything with a .441 case diameter in an AR15. |
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Originally Posted By Yama_Raja: The Grendel didnt kill the 6.8. In fact right now the 6.8 is ahead of the Grendel. The 6mmARC is killing the Grendel. Both ARC cartridges are based off the 220 Russian. Just like the 7.62x39, Grendel ect, anything with a .441 case diameter in an AR15. Originally Posted By Yama_Raja: Originally Posted By RogueSpear2023: 6.5 Grendel killed it. The 338 ARC is based off the 6.8spc so it may come back. The Grendel didnt kill the 6.8. In fact right now the 6.8 is ahead of the Grendel. The 6mmARC is killing the Grendel. Both ARC cartridges are based off the 220 Russian. Just like the 7.62x39, Grendel ect, anything with a .441 case diameter in an AR15. Do you have access to industry ammunition sales statistics? That is something I very much would love to see. Tangentially, I have seen nothing to support that claim. 6.5 Grendel did kill 6.8 sales, between the .27 cent Wolf steel and the longer legs, and Rem. Fucking it up. Today? PSA business leaders concluded 6.5 Grendel sales are a larger market segment than 6.8. Are they wrong? What data do you have access to to say that? |
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Originally Posted By panthermark: Sorry, didn't mean .243, I have 6mmMAX on the brain (I'm really curious about that one if NAS3 cases are made availble). By purpose I mean it isn't a "mag dump a pile of dirt with an FRT" cartridge. It is your go to for deer/hogs out of an AR. Outside of 7.62x39 (if you are sitting on piles of old ammo), most alternate 5.56 small frame cartridges are purpose driven due to cost/availability of ammo, especially supersonic cartridges. I think a new cartridge needs to win at least 2 out of 3 "battles" to win the "war". 6.8 won 1 out of 3. It won the ballistics battle in terms of what is was designed to do (be a better 5.56 out of an M4). That capability gave it an excellent civilian use case. (The reason why it isn't dead dead) But it lost the logistics battle and the marketing battle. What do you mean by logistics? In the internet age I can order all the ammo, brass, bullets, barrels, bcg's I need right now. |
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At Midway, right now: using availability as a proxy for popularity. 6.5 Grendel. 21 loadings from 11 manufacturers. 20 available, 1 you can back-order. 6.8 SPC 16 loadings from 9 manufacturers. 9 available, 3 you can back-order. .300 AAC Blackout. 86 loadings from 25 manufacturers. 48 available, 15 you can back-order, 3 coming soon. 22 ARC 5 loadings from 1 manufacturer. 5 available. 6mm ARC 15 loadings from 8 manufacturers. 10 available, 4 you can back-order. .30 AR 1 loading from 1 manufacturer. 1 unavailable. I do this comparison every year or so. 2019: 6.8x43mm SPC: 16 loadings listed from 5 makers. 15 available. 6.5 Grendel: 13 loadings listed from 5 makers. 10 available. .300 AAC Blackout: 43 loadings listed from 16 makers. 28 available. .300 Whisper: 2 loadings from 1 maker. 2 available. .30 Remington AR: 1 loading from 1 maker: 1 available. 2017: 6.5 Grendel. 9 loadings from 3 manufacturers. 5 available, 1 you can back-order, 2 coming soon. 6.8 SPC 20 loadings from 7 manufacturers. 14 available, 3 you can back-order. .300 AAC Blackout. 45 loadings from 17 manufacturers. 31 available, 7 you can back-order, 1 coming soon. 2016: 6.5 Grendel: 5 loads from 2 manufacturers. 4 available. Almost the same as last year. 6.8mm Remington Special/6.8 SPC/6.8x43mm: 18 loads from 7 manufacturers. 10 available, 4 back-order OK, 4 unavailable. .300 AAC Blackout: 39 loads from 17 manufacturers. 21 available, 11 back-order OK, 7 unavailable. .300 AAC Blackout Subsonic: 12 loads from 10 manufacturers. 7 available, 2 back-order OK, 3 unavailable. 2015: 6.8x43mm SPC: 15 loadings listed from 6 makers. 7 available from 4. 6.5 Grendel: 5 loadings listed from 2 makers. 3 available from 2. .300 AAC Blackout: 12 loadings listed from 10 makers. 12 available from 9. .300 Whisper: 3 loadings from 2 makers. None available. .30 Remington AR: 4 loadings from 1 maker: 3 available. 6.5 did NOT kill 6.8. It's not even dead. .300 Blackout won the alternate war, bigly. |
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Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: What do you mean by logistics? In the internet age I can order all the ammo, brass, bullets, barrels, bcg's I need right now. Logistics as in ease and cost of entry, especially since the military didn't adapt it. *You need a new bolt, and that bolt isn't transferable to a lot of other cartridges. (.224V and 338 Spectre are in worse shape than 6.8 SPC) *You need special mags. The "best" mags for a mil-spec lowers (PRI) are expensive as hell, are lower round capacity, and damn near unobtanium for anything over 15 rounds anyway. You can't walk into most gun stores or big box stores and grab some. And similar to the bolt, there is not a lot you can do with those mags other than shoot 6.8spc, .224V, and 338 Specter. *No cheap FMJ/ range projectiles when compared to 5.56 or at the time, steel 6.5G and cheap 7.62x39. *Given its design intent around a 14.5" small-frame platform, it never successfully crossed platforms (like to bolt action) where it exceled or differed from other cartridges. *SIX8 confusion (a bit later in time) - Does one need to buy a completely new (and non-milspec) lower and mags to get reliable and high capacity performance? Is a Six8 upper compatible with a mil-spec lower and vice versa? None of this takes away from 6.8 performance which is very nice, but logistically, it reminds me of a big-bore. Big-bores are far from dead, and excel in their specific use case, but cost/logistics impact their wide spread adoption. Now, a big caveat is .277 Fury. If that were to succeed, then lots of .277 projectiles (especially 115gr FMJ) means more availability and lower ammo cost, and that in turn drives utilization. Just like with surplus 7.62x39, $0.25 Grendel, or Hornady trying to flood the market with cheapish ARC ammo, if the cost and availability is there, that can be a win in logistics. I think 6.5CM and 300blk won their early logistics battles by leeching off of AR10/AR15 platforms. If you can get by with current platform bolts and mags, it is an easy to gain a foothold. |
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At one time the C-Products magazines for 6.8 were nearly the same price as USGI mags. The 25 rounders worked well. Then C-Products was no more. PRI was, at one time, the brand to avoid in 6.8. Nothing is completely static. Heck, at one time there were factory 5.45x39 AR's and available, cheap, magazines! |
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Originally Posted By Z09SS: At one time the C-Products magazines for 6.8 were nearly the same price as USGI mags. The 25 rounders worked well. Then C-Products was no more. . . . C-Products Defense magazines have been sold as Duramag for years. They are readily available and work great for me in 6.5 Grendel. Some (maybe all) of my Duramag purchases are even marked C-Products. Twenty-five rounders for 6.8 are under $30. |
| https://www.cdnnsports.com/anderson-ar15-barrel-6-8-spc-ii-16-1-11.html |
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Originally Posted By panthermark: Logistics as in ease and cost of entry, especially since the military didn't adapt it. *You need a new bolt, and that bolt isn't transferable to a lot of other cartridges. (.224V and 338 Spectre are in worse shape than 6.8 SPC) *You need special mags. The "best" mags for a mil-spec lowers (PRI) are expensive as hell, are lower round capacity, and damn near unobtanium for anything over 15 rounds anyway. You can't walk into most gun stores or big box stores and grab some. And similar to the bolt, there is not a lot you can do with those mags other than shoot 6.8spc, .224V, and 338 Specter. *No cheap FMJ/ range projectiles when compared to 5.56 or at the time, steel 6.5G and cheap 7.62x39. *Given its design intent around a 14.5" small-frame platform, it never successfully crossed platforms (like to bolt action) where it exceled or differed from other cartridges. *SIX8 confusion (a bit later in time) - Does one need to buy a completely new (and non-milspec) lower and mags to get reliable and high capacity performance? Is a Six8 upper compatible with a mil-spec lower and vice versa? None of this takes away from 6.8 performance which is very nice, but logistically, it reminds me of a big-bore. Big-bores are far from dead, and excel in their specific use case, but cost/logistics impact their wide spread adoption. Now, a big caveat is .277 Fury. If that were to succeed, then lots of .277 projectiles (especially 115gr FMJ) means more availability and lower ammo cost, and that in turn drives utilization. Just like with surplus 7.62x39, $0.25 Grendel, or Hornady trying to flood the market with cheapish ARC ammo, if the cost and availability is there, that can be a win in logistics. I think 6.5CM and 300blk won their early logistics battles by leeching off of AR10/AR15 platforms. If you can get by with current platform bolts and mags, it is an easy to gain a foothold. Originally Posted By panthermark: Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: What do you mean by logistics? In the internet age I can order all the ammo, brass, bullets, barrels, bcg's I need right now. Logistics as in ease and cost of entry, especially since the military didn't adapt it. *You need a new bolt, and that bolt isn't transferable to a lot of other cartridges. (.224V and 338 Spectre are in worse shape than 6.8 SPC) *You need special mags. The "best" mags for a mil-spec lowers (PRI) are expensive as hell, are lower round capacity, and damn near unobtanium for anything over 15 rounds anyway. You can't walk into most gun stores or big box stores and grab some. And similar to the bolt, there is not a lot you can do with those mags other than shoot 6.8spc, .224V, and 338 Specter. *No cheap FMJ/ range projectiles when compared to 5.56 or at the time, steel 6.5G and cheap 7.62x39. *Given its design intent around a 14.5" small-frame platform, it never successfully crossed platforms (like to bolt action) where it exceled or differed from other cartridges. *SIX8 confusion (a bit later in time) - Does one need to buy a completely new (and non-milspec) lower and mags to get reliable and high capacity performance? Is a Six8 upper compatible with a mil-spec lower and vice versa? None of this takes away from 6.8 performance which is very nice, but logistically, it reminds me of a big-bore. Big-bores are far from dead, and excel in their specific use case, but cost/logistics impact their wide spread adoption. Now, a big caveat is .277 Fury. If that were to succeed, then lots of .277 projectiles (especially 115gr FMJ) means more availability and lower ammo cost, and that in turn drives utilization. Just like with surplus 7.62x39, $0.25 Grendel, or Hornady trying to flood the market with cheapish ARC ammo, if the cost and availability is there, that can be a win in logistics. I think 6.5CM and 300blk won their early logistics battles by leeching off of AR10/AR15 platforms. If you can get by with current platform bolts and mags, it is an easy to gain a foothold. I'm a bit confused now because almost all your points apply to the other rounds you mentioned. Nothing beats 223. Yes 300 Blackout using 30 cal bullets helps a lot. I don't switch my bolts around to other guns so I don't worry about it fitting other stuff only that it's available and not a fortune. You can always use a 223 or even a 22lr upper for training to get the benefit of cheaper ammo. |
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Originally Posted By Z09SS: . . . . 300 Blackout won the alternate war, bigly. It's definitely the most popular AR variant. My guess is that's because it only requires a different barrel. Outside of subs and barrels under 10", it's a mediocre performer compared to other variants. Maybe it's better to look at this as "Wow, it's awesome we can do all this with the AR-15 platform" than "This is better than that." 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, and 6 ARC are all niche cartridges in the grand scheme. 300 BO is the only one that approaches mainstream. |
Whatever happened to 6.8? (Page 2 of 4)
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