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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - What is a Recce configuration? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 12/10/2007 9:48:37 PM EDT
| Specifically, how does it differ from an SPR? I get most of the different configurations and their uses, but as I have looked through volumes of threads, I notice rifles designated SPR or Recce look very similar. Is there a true difference? They're both vague to me. |
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i dont think there has been an "official" breakdown of the parts used by mil...Recce is abbreviated for "recon" i belive basically, its a accurized, med range carbine--16" bbl, match; A3, has a full length FF tube w/ low pro gas block, etc SPRs (special purpose reciever/rifle, has a 18" match bbl , lots of KAC stuff--check for mark 12): www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=134&t=141410 www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=130&t=143864 this might help: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=303894 |
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I've asked before and this is the response I got 14.5 or 16" barrel carbine gas system free float low power optics (1x-4x usually, sometimes more) Basically an accurized carbine that is more effective at longer ranges than the standard M4 with red dot/holo sight, but still can be used up close. Not officially adopted by the mil. SPR is the evolution of the RECON/REECE rifle, mid length 18" instead of a standard carbine. |
I think your full length FF tube is more of an ARFCOM requirement. I was around here when it was discussed in much detail. I think there was some input by military types and my recollection is it's an accurized carbine that the Navy Seals wanted. An SPR is an 18" barrel with a rifle gas system. A Recce would be a 16" carbine gas system. Uncle Sam doesn't do middy. (for the most part, except for two confirmed 18" middies that the 82nd had, posted here a while ago). There have been many variations of a Recce that have been built up by members and vendors associated with this sight. The civilians probably have more Recce type rifles than the military. It's a cool set up and very versitale. It seems mine could play the role of a Defensive carbine, when I take my honking optic off and bipod and work well as a somewhat precision outfit with it on. I have gotten Sub MOA on occasion with it and the right ammo. Yet it's not very heavy at all with out those items. 16" middy recce built by adco: |
ah, ok, thanks  nice AR  |
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The original Recce is a 16" barrel precision carbine with a full length (12") free float rail foreend. As compared to the SPR it's designed to be lighter, more mobile and still usable as a fighting carbine while being capable of greater precision than standard carbines. Long rail system for more rail space for bipods (far enough forward for reasonable use), lights, IR lasers and NV gear and still have a place to put your hand. Most used a telestock although IIRC there were some seen "in the wild" with fixed stocks (operator discretion) The term has subsequently been arfcomized to mean practically anything. |
I would like to see this full length FF tube substantialized. If I was wrong I stand corrected. But I was around when they were first discussed at great lengths. And I don't know if there is even a solid requirement for all the components. Except for that it was an "accurized" carbine. So, show me where you get this or any other "exact" spec part on a recce and I would agree with you. And I'll owe you and Alpha an apology. Which I'm saying now, if I'm wrong I'm sorry. I just don't recall that being part of the requirement except for people here on ARFCOM. If you notice, most people on ARFCOMs Recce's are Mid length. Which I'm almost certain wasn't the case for the Recce. Heck, maybe we made up the whole thing. It would be interesting to know. So to both of you guys, sorry if I'm wrong. If you have some further info on this FF requirement of 12", I would like to see it. And Alpha, thank you for the compliment. ADCO has done me, my brother and my Dad real well with uppers he built. ETA: wiki does say some "longer" rails were used. But it also says carbine gas system and FSB used. I don't know. If that picture in the recce picture thread alpha linked is correct and that is a recce, it's got a short rail with a FSB. At least from what I can tell. I know I'm being anal, but we had an ice storm, I didn't go to work, I'm bored and I like the recce alot and it interests me. |
As for the configuration, everything I have ever seen from anybody with any kind of "connections" to know seem to agree that it is a 16" accurized barrel with carbine gas system, rifle length free float tube and some kind of optic, usually an ACOG but the optic is attached by the end user and can be anything he thinks is suitable for his current mission. In arfcom-land, recce is a broader definition that seems to include basically anything with a free float handguard and a barrel 16" or less. |
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Hey, I like 'em too. Building a 14.5" version now, actually. Mega upper/Mega lower/CMMG 14.5" barrel/Larue 12.0 FF. I just think the name is gay. "Recce" = "reek"? Gay.  EDIT: According to Wiki, it is pronounced "Recky"... "Recon rifles--more accurately called "Recce rifles" (rhymes with "Becky") by operators based on the British SAS's terminology" 
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SEAL Recon Rifle Built in house by SEAL Team armorers, and later by the Naval Surface Warfare Center, Crane Division (often referred to as NSWC-Crane or just Crane), these rifles were developed to provide SEAL snipers with a portable, lightweight system that had greater lethality over a standard M4-type AR-15/M16 pattern carbine. When greater production of these weapons was turned over to the personnel at Crane, there is some confusion as to exactly what happened, but Army money and ideas (from the Special Purpose Receiver project) got funnelled into the process. The SEAL teams were apparently disappointed with the performance of the resulting Mk 12 Special Purpose Rifle (SPR), and have apparently now convinced the managers at Crane to return to center as it were. Production of 'Recon Rifles' on the original pattern is progressing now according to some sources. Specifications These weapons were initially built in house with the only real specifications being the ability to shoot any 5.56 x 45 mm cartridge in inventory (at the time this did include the first iterations of the 77 grain (5 g) Mk 262 Mod 0 5.56 x 45 mm cartridge), and that the weapon have a 16 in (406 mm) long barrel. The barrel blanks are made by Lilja Precision and then chambered by Compass Lake. They have a 1:8 in (203 mm) twist and are stainless steel. They have a unique heavy barrel profile, starting with 0.980 in (25 mm) in diameter for the first 2.60 in (66 mm) of length, then narrowing down to 0.850 (22 mm) in diameter, 0.750 in (19 mm) in diameter underneath the front sight block, and 0.725 in (18 mm) in diameter to the muzzle. The barrels have the Knight's Armament Company - KAC QD (Quick Detach) flash hider, allowing the mounting of KAC's QD sound suppressor. A carbine-length gas system is used. These barrels were mated to flat top upper receivers, and retained the fixed front sight/gas block assembly, which would seem to imply that the original iterations were probably just rebarreled M4/A1 type carbines in SEAL inventory. Beyond this, exact specifications vary. Since they were built in house, they seem to have been accessorized to personal preferences, with fixed (A1 and A2 styles) and retractable butt-stocks. (Original 4-point and improved 6-point Colt stocks, and the Crane/SOCOM/LMT stock are all in use.) Recon rifles built by Crane are reportedly all fitted with a free-float handguard system, the most popular being the Knight's Armament Co. M4 Match RAS and the LaRue free-float handguards in the longer lengths (which protect the barrel and provide more area to mount tactical accessories). Some operators reportedly use various back-up iron sights (BUISs) by Knight's, ARMS Inc, and Troy Industries, while others do not. The range of optics used on Recon rifles is wide, with various models by Trijicon (like ACOG TA01, TA31F), Leupold (TS-30A1, TS-30A2), and NightForce in use. Given the secretive nature of the end-users, first-hand information and data on Recon rifles--more accurately called "Recce rifles" (rhymes with "Becky") by operators based on the British SAS's terminology--is quite rare. How much these specifications have changed with regards to Crane's 'production' weapons is unknown. |
LOL! The first time I read this, I was thinking "what's gay about (recky)?" It never occured to me you didn't know how to pronounce it. BTW, my grandfather was a Captain in the Brittish Army in WWI, and he used the term recce when we would play squad leader when I was a boy. I think the term has been around longer than the SAS. |
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THE WILKIPEDIA INFO IS NOT 100% CORRECT, BUT VERY CLOSE. I KNOW THE ARMORERS WHO BUILD THEM. THEY'LL BE USING NEW BARRELS SOON. STILL CARBINE LENGTH GAS SYSTEM. GOOD SHOOTING, WES GRANT MSTN.BIZ |
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This was posted by Frogman(Read Navy SEAL) over on Tactical Forums some time ago: Regarding the Recon rifle: I'm not sure why anyone cares so much about it. I'm going to go through this once and for all. Well before 9/11 a new M4 upper was built "in-house" to allow certain SEAL snipers the ability to have a lightweight and portable weapon that was also more lethal. So, a few uppers were made with 16" barrels. The uppers had to fire any of the 5.56mm ammo in our inventory to include the (at that time "new") 77 gr. Sierra/Black Hills Match cartridge. The weapon retained the KAC QD Suppressor. The operator could decide for himself, basically, whether he wanted a collapsing or fixed stock (as SEALs have done for quite a long time). When the "recipe" was turned over to Crane for them to make enough for the rest of the Teams' snipers the person who was handling the project got distracted. Instead he funneled Army money into the project and Army ideas. Basically, he shelved a simple construction project in favor of designing a whole new thing- and thus the Mk 12 (which the world loves to call the "SPR") was unfortunately born (perhaps stillborn). Mk 12's were issued to the Navy (myself included)and they were not what one might have expected once they got to the range. Since the Teams considered the whole "SPR"/Mk 12 thing a waste of time, the project manager at Crane (finally) got his pee-pee slapped a little and construction of some more of the original Recon rifles is now progressing. It is simply a 16" barrel (current manufacturer eludes me as I write but it is not that fancy) with the KAC flash-hider on a flattop upper. I believe it still has a fixed front sight post. SEALs have a host of BUIS options to choose from. The favorite, by far, is the KAC 600m BUIS. SEAL snipers have a wide range of optics to select for their weapons. My personal favorite(and that of my Teammates) is the 4X SOF ACOG. It has good optics, is waterproof and extremely durable. Many of us have recently shifted them onto A.R.M.S. throw lever bases for quick detach purposes. There are tons of gadgets for M-16 series weapons out there (just like M1911's). Most of the things that are out there do not belong on a SEAL rifle. Some equipment works well for a SWAT guy, or maybe at the range, but it just wouldn't survive getting to the target with a SEAL operator (i.e. hard boat rides, jumping, diving, etc). Our equipment/tools are simple, durable and applicable to the task. SEALs (myself included) do not have much patience for couch potatoes questioning why we do/or don't use this gadget vice that one. Frogman |
So can you give us an example??? In pic form???  
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I suppose none of us couch potatoes should have guns either????? I suppose it does get annoying. But I think it's only natural for people to wonder what the tip of the spear is doing and using. Maybe it's none of our business. Nevertheless, it will always be noteworthy to me as the exploits of our fighting men. If that makes me a couch potato poser, well, so be it. My grandpa died fighting for this country and I have an interest in military history and Gear. And the AR is a frickin sweet weapon. Why wouldn't we be interested? |
I hear ya... There was some other stuff in there that I removed to not anger the masses. I suppose it must get tired asking questions about weapons system a lot. It will forever be interesting to us though... |
So basically, a real Recce (BTW, I can confirm that the pronunciation is in fact "Reckee," we do recce patrols pretty often, as well as joint ops with the British, and we've always referred to them as "going on recce,") would look like nothing more spectacular than an LE6721 with a KAC M4 FF RAS, a KAC 600m BUIS and TA01NSN? Maybe a SOPMOD or A1/2 stock? So many tacticool dreams...ruined...  ~Augee |
Nah, didn't ruin it for me. That's the way I understood it too. Even though mine isn't exactly set up like that, I still like it. My brother has one that's probably more like the one's they use. Except he just has an aimpoint on it. That's probably more like a recce. Wrong optic though. That's ADCO's "match carbine" upper. Wilson 1/8 16" barrel HBAR, DD rail, RRA flat top upper. So neither one I have is what I've read they actually are, but close enough for me. Maybe someone could build one just like they've seen and show us how it's supposed to be. cough cough augee cough  |
Would love to, if I'd seen one!  Can't say I've seen the real deal on that one yet, just extrapolating from Frogman's description, what it sounded like! I'd like to eventually build an M4gery with a LaRue 7.0, would that be close enought? Us lowly Guardsman don't even have weaponlights for every soldier, and we do night OP's frequently! We don't get too much choice, so I say, if you can have it, have at it. Knowing the chief at the small arms shop allows me to get away with a little bit, but I think someone might get pissed if I started knocking out FSB pins. ~Augee |
There's always the DD Omega Rail  designed just for your situation. Although an "Omega 7.0 FSP" would be a better option (if it existed) IMO, give you some extra room for lights and such.
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In my humble opinion the essential components of a Recce (rhymes with Becky) are as follows: 1. flat-top upper receiver 2. 16" heavy/match barrel 3. free float handguard 4. lower powered magnified optic 5. back-up iron sights Within those guidelines, there is a lot of room for variation.   |
I'll have to disagree with you there and go so far as to say I doubt there will be a 7.0 FSP version of the Omega rail. The nice thing about the Omega is it's the only FF rail out there that doesn't require gun smithing or modifying the weapon. An FSP version would require you to remove or modify the front handguard cap which negates one of the Omega rail's major selling points, especially for Mil\LEO types. |
Looks to be a standard M4 with an A2 stock. |
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Looks to be a standard M4 with an A2 stock. Agreed. AFAIK there's never been a confirmed pic of one in use. The only one I've ever seen (or thought I saw?) was in that 60 Minutes episode a couple years back when that female correspondent (forget her name?) followed SEALs in the Ghan for a while. In the CBS footage, there was a quick shot of SEALs en route to a mission on a helo and you can just about make out that one of the operators in the foregound is holding what looks like a recce rifle with a Nightforce scope and an old style 4-pos Colt stock. He's holding the rifle barrel down between his legs. There are some screen caps of it floating around the net but I couldn't find it just now... YMMV. Will |
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CARBINE LENGTH GAS SYSTEMS ARE USED BECAUSE MID-LENGTH GAS TUBES ARE NOT IN "THE SYSTEM"; CARBINE LENGTH ONES OF COURSE ARE. I AM AWARE OF BARRELS FROM DIFFERENT TOP SHELF BARRELMAKERS BEING USED OVER THE YEARS. WE'VE USED SOME OF THEM, PROBABLY NOT ALL, AND THEY ARE SUPERB, E.G., KRIEGER, LILJA, ETC. THE COMPONENTS USED IN A GIVEN BUILD ARE TYPICALLY CHOSEN TO SUIT THE SHOOTER'S INDIVIDUAL PREFERENCES AND MISSION. THESE ARE NOT SET IN STONE. COMPONENTS EVOLVE OVER TIME. WHAT THEY USED LAST YEAR MAY WELL NOT BE THE CASE NEXT YEAR ... OR EVEN RIGHT NOW. I DO HAVE A GOOD IDEA WHAT SOME OF THE NEWEST COMPONENTS WILL BE ... AND I AM KEEPING QUIET BY REQUEST. THE "RECCE" OR "RECON", CALL IT WHAT YOU LIKE, IS NOT SO MUCH A FIREARM OF A GIVEN PATTERN AS IT IS A CONCEPT, ONE THAT CONTINUES TO EVOLVE AND IMPROVE IN ITS EFFECTIVENESS. GOOD SHOOTING, WES |
All my Colt triggers have been replaced with either JP Enterprises single stage triggers or Geissele 2-stage triggers.
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They must make them with the right sized pins then? Did you have to remove a sear block? My colt has one. 
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The JP triggers will fit in a Colt with a sear block with a little work. I haven't tried installing a Giessele in a Colt with a sear block. |
Aaaaah, good to know. |
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I'm undecided if this is an SPR or possibly a recce. It doesn't have Mk12 Mod0 look. No PRI tube with the rail that goes all the way. Looks more like a DD rail. Sure seems like a 12" rail. It's from a book called the year in special operations 2007 edition. The caption under the picture reads: Members of SEAL teams 3 and 8 conduct overwatch while a joint coalition / iraqi army cordon takes place in fallujah |
Looks like a regular MK12 Mod 1 to me. Note the rifle lenght gas system. |
Agreed, Mk12 mod 1. Looks like the LMT "Crane" stock on that one. |
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Actually it looks exactly like what ADCO builds for their Mk12 Mod1. So yes, SPR it is. I didn't really think about what that little thing on top of the barrel was and why it was sticking past the FF tube. (gas block) Yes that sure looks like a rifle gas system. And the can covers some of the barrel so it is probably most assuredaly 18". My Bad. I would love to see a picture of a real one in use. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - What is a Recce configuration? (Page 1 of 2)
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