reposted with broken links repaired


The Appleseed Project Challenge





You can learn about the Appleseed Project here.

You can purchase the Appleseed AQT target here.


Follow the instructions on the target and shoot the Appleseed Project Challenge using an AR-15 with iron sights and “ball” ammunition.  Post your targets.  Here’s a couple of targets that I shot using a Colt AR-15A2.









“We enjoy freedom . . . not because we deserve it, but because others before us put their lives on the line to defend it.  Are those who come after us to have less, because we couldn’t even be bothered to think about it?”

Thomas Sowell

The BEST equipment, with a user who doesn't know how to USE it, is pretty much worthless.

APPLESEED is a great basic marksmanship program to help shooters learn their sights & techniques, because ONLY HITS COUNT!

BIGGER_HAMMER

The Appleseed project is the best bang for your buck in shooting. Do it

Great program  and a history lesson too. Got my patch and got to shoot over 1500 rds!

Another vote for Appleseed.  No group of folks work harder to teach practical marksmanship.

My Rifleman patch target back in 2010. I used a Marlin 795 .22lr with Simmons 3-9× scope. The scope started sliding off the receiver dovetail halfway through, so I had to readjust it back on the dovetail, quickly rezero, and finish with enough points in time to score my patch.
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Here is my first Rifleman score with iron sights, a Bushmaster 20" A2 rifle with heavy barrel.
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This is a "redcoat" target shot with the same Bushmaster rifle.
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I lived in Las Vegas at the time, but drove to Kingman, AZ Appleseed shoots since they did shooting out to 500 yards on Sunday. It was the first time I shot at and hit a target with a rifle at 500 yards. For the full distance shoots we used paper targets printed with the full size version of the 25 meter targets shown above- a head and shoulders target.

Strong work!

..

Work it was, this was not my first time trying to get that dang patch! When I went to my first Appleseed event in Boulder City, NV, I had not properly zeroed a rifle and shot past 50 yards since I had been in the army, which was 10 years prior. I used my Ruger mini-14 at first, but the grouping went to shit after the first 40-60 rounds. I then used my Marlin 795 to get my patch, but I wanted to shoot a Rifleman score with iron sights, hence the Bushmaster 20" A2 heavy barrel AR15 which I used at 25 yards and the full distance shoot out to 500 yards. Shooting out to 500 yards depends on available time and available lanes at the host site. Rifleman course of fire is shot at 25 yards, but with time limits, position changes, and mag changes, you still need to do your part to score. I have seen dudes bring out scoped M1As with EBR stocks who can't hit shit at 25 yards and guys with 30-30 lever action rifles with buckhorn sights put 5 rounds in a one ragged hole group. Speaking from experience, I highly recommend getting the next generation involved in JROTC air rifle shooting and go for their Rifleman patch. The Appleseed events also teach Revolutionary War history, which modern schools eschew these days.

Looks like fun, ordering targets now.

This is a bump so I can find the thread easier tomorrow.

I got my BUIS upgrades in for my two Gs. Tomorrow I will be doing side by side comparison of:

14.5" Super Duty with Geissele BUIS, whatever sight radius is achieved with a flippy on the end of a 13.5" MK16 rail.
14.5" Super Duty with a Vortex Crossfire on a G lower 1/3 T1 mount.
16" Super Duty with a 1-8x PA GLx scope that is supposedly (maybe not¹⁾ zeroed for 50 yards.

I also picked up some pistol targets, I'm going to run that with a couple different pistols and post in Handgun tech.

¹ I had some zero retention issues that caused me to goose egg the first stage of a match and shoot the rest of said match with a borrowed gun. I'm going through a troubleshooting process to determine if this was a mounting issue (just me fuckin up and needing to buy proper torque tools) or if something is actually broken in the scope. I've had someone with a FixItStick set re-tourqe all the screws and nuts to exact Geissele specs, then I grouped, box tested, and rezeroed the scope. If it is working properly I should be able to shoot a 250 from 50 yards if I used my match ammo.

I failed BIGLY, but I learned a ton about the capabilites, limitations, and compatibilities of different equipment.

First, the girls. Below is Ruri, above is Misa. For any weebs in the audience, yes, Oreimo and Death Note respectively.

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And the gear: Hand-me-down jacket and glove from a couple of very accomplished shooters at a place where I've shot some service rifle matches, a 80ish year old M1 web sling with Midwest swivels

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Ammo was Frontier .223 55 gr. FMJ

And we're off...

First, I shot the entire course with all the service rifle gear and Misa, because I was curious how that would go. I had an awkward hold to start, because the gun is zeroed for 200 yards and has a BDC reticle. I ran into serious problems with sling adjustment and eye relief in the prone. The way the scope is mounted is excellent at 1x for run 'n gun, and excellent at 8x for PRS style shooting. If you are trying to use the standard positions used in CMP matches, with High Power gear, it is a massive struggle to get lined up with the correct eye relief. I do not believe I successfully negotiated this obstacle, even in slow prone where I did less bad. I do, however, truly understand why the scopes on CMP service rifles are mounted the way they are. It makes complete sense. I also shot WAY too fast.

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I was really struggling to use the sling effectively, and some of the way my shots were strung with Misa made me think I might be effecting the barrel even though it is floated. I decided to ditch the sling, and shot both runs with Ruri in unsupported, no sling positions. Again, I shot WAY too fast, taking 2-4 shots per respiratory pause, and felt a couple of bad trigger pulls. I also had a slight hold to negotiate since the dot is zeroed for 200 yards. I did the hold correctly on my sighters but couldn't seem to maintain it just right with time pressure.

With iron sights, the real test, I ran into some actual problems. First, my eye sight has been fading and my ability to shoot with irons has been deteriorating. I could bandaid this by using a NM type sight setup. But no, I did the opposite: The BUIS I just put on the gun is designed for close combat. Slightly wider than milspec FSP, and the apperature is about 2x the size of the peep on a milspec A2 sight (but still smaller than the ghost ring). I was so frustrated that I ended up crossfiring the seated portion. I did a full reshoot of that. By the time I got to the prone slow, I found that I absolutely could not establish a sight picture on the bottom targets.

Lesson: My eyes are getting worse and I'm maybe a 200 yard shooter at best with my new BUIS. The good news is that for up close run n' gun, the BUIS seem JuSt As GoOd as the ghost ring on the A2 sight, even though they aren't as good for longer distance shooting. Anyway, here's those two targets:

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No sir, you didn't!  You actually went to the range, did some shooting from position and posted honest results.



That's the idea!


...

But wait, there's more!

What I really went to the range for today was to verify my scope is holding zero and practice for my match next week.

I decided to reshoot the test with Misa, but shoot her as she is intended to be shot:

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Ammo was Frontier 75 gr. HPBT Match

"Standing" was done standing behind a bench with a big block of wood that was about belly high on me. I started with magazine in, bolt open, fortune cookie in hand, tucked under the handguard. On the beep I established a standing supported position, drop the bolt, and fired all 10 rounds under 2 respiratory pauses. I shoot this way because of the sport I'm preparing for.

"Kneeling" was done behind the bench. I started the same way, got in a kneeling position with my support side knee down, pulled my pillow under my firing elbow, and used the fortune cookie under the gun again. I shot the 2 rd magazine in one pause, the 8 round magazine in 2 pauses.

"Prone-rapid" was fired in a similar fashion, but the pillow bag went under the front of the gun and the fortune cookie went under the heel of the stock. Did the actual shooting even faster once I established the position.

"Prone slow" was shot as pictured, with bipod. I also did a full breathing sequence between shots, the first time I did that all day. I partly did this stage this way as a test to see how shooting with that bipod and rail on concrete with effect my grouping. Apparently the answer is: a lot, and badly.

Getting a 250 would have been absolutely trivial, so I decided to do it at 50 yards and cut the par times in half.

And the result:

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I added it up and got 235. I can has patch now?

One of the things you don't get when shooting at a target at a regular range is the effects of movement from one target to another target.  

Normal - you sit down, lay down (what ever) and you line up on that target and shoot a group (3, 5, 10 shots, etc.)  Then you stop and take a good look at the target.  No reloading in the middle of the group, no target/position change, and no effects from breaking your position.

When I went to my first Appleseed (fall of 2004?) I remember one of the instructors (the guy running the appleseed but before they coined the term shoot boss) looked at my targets and said, "Hey, nice groups.  Any idea why they aren't where you want them on the targets?"  Nope, I had no idea and he didn't tell me either.  I had to attend the RBC at Ramseur about 4 months later in February.  That's where they had enough time/instructors to get into Natural Point of Aim and lots of other stuff.  That's when I learned why my groups (even though dime sized or smaller at 25 meters) with the M1A would move from where the cross hairs were on the target to some point left/low, right/high, etc. when I shift from one target to the next on the 400 yard target line.  By the time the week was ending I could shoot rifleman scores at 25 meters using the sitting position on stages 3 & 4 (thank you Son of Martha, whether you're still in the program or not).

Whether you call it basic rifle marksmanship (they were arguing over than about the time I left) or fundamentals of marksmanship (the term some thought sounded cooler) it is the best money you can spend to improve your rifle shooting skills.  I remember guys who shot CMP and NRA high power matches coming to Appleseeds and telling me they'd either re-learned things they'd forgotten or learned something new that improved their shooting.  In those days a lot of guys brought their M1 Garands and M1As to the Appleseeds.

No idea what it's like now (instructing or shooters) but early on the average for rifleman scores during a two day appleseed vs. the number of attendees was around 15 to 18 percent.  It's not easy.  It is fun and you will be a better rifle shooter if you attend (might have to do more that one or bite the bullet and just go to an RBC = about 5 or 6 days of shooting/learning and putting what you learn into practice immediately if they still do those.)

Just be sure to read up on what you need to do to prepare and what you need to take with you to get through the weekend/week.  Used to be lists on the RWVA website to help out getting you prepared.

I'd love to hit up another Appleseed.  It is great to see molon posting.

I'm looking forward to my first Appleseed this Friday.  I've been meaning to do so for years, but when I was looking they weren't available, and when they were available I wasn't looking.  The stars aligned finally, and I am hoping to learn a lot.

ETA: Honestly it's this post  that prompted me to look at the schedule for my area, so thanks for the reminder Molon!

Did this back in 2014 with my wife. I was shooting a lot more back the. And was happy with my 241 to make distinguished. Then she shot a 240 despite hardly ever going shooting. She also made distinguished.

I strongly suggest folks look for Known Distance events, too...AQTs are much more fun at 100, 200, 300 and 400 yards.

Just did this last Saturday and Sunday...and also shot steel at 500 yards... No fancy ammo, Federal XM193 Lake City.

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Hits count AQT....1 point per hit, stage 4 doubled, max score 50, Rifleman score 40 or higher.

ETA: Top rifle is the one I used - 20-inch Armalite upper, Doublestar lower, Trijicon 4x32 ACOG with red chevron

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I had heard Project Appleseed recommended from different places several times over the years. I finally went to my first one back in September. Suffered terribly from equipment failures but learned a lot and had a lot of fun. Signed up for another one immediately after and ended up making Rifleman with a new Tippmann M4-22 that I had only shot enough to get zeroed. Don't mind the optic on the handguard, that will change once the more cantilevered mount arrives, just had no time to change it before the event.

I'd definitely recommend it to others!

I just did the half day one with my kid, we had a great time.  Planning on doing the full 2 day in April, can't wait.  Will add a pic here of my target

Did my first Appleseed last weekend. Didn't patch, but I learned so much and I will keep attending. I will get my patch on the next one, or the one after!

It was a great time, and I highly recommend the program.

I tried using a 16" AR with open sights and a 10/22 with Tech sights but after dismal results, I tried the 10/22 with a scope, it was better but I came up short. Practice, practice, practice using the principals I learned at Appleseed.

My first Appleseed was Oct 2-3.  It's the first one I found around here in a long time and nothing is scheduled for the rest of the year--I'm looking forward to the next and I intend to use an AR.

First day, I tried to use my B14R.....it's a lazer beam off the bipod, but between the weight and breaking NPA to manipulate the bolt after every shot, the best I could do was 163.  

I patched the 2nd day using a nearly stock 10/22 with a cheap Bushnell red dot.  First AQT of the day was 211, second was 231, third was 232 and fourth was 219.  I learned more about how to use my rifles in those 2 days than I have over the past 10 years.  EVERYONE who is interested in practical marksmanship should attend an Appleseed!

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I've swapped the cheap 3 MOA dot for a 1-4x PST and I've been practicing in the back yard for the next Appleseed--I'm confident that I'll earn DM next time.  I only missed it by 8 points!

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Breaking NPA with a rimfire turnbolt? Tsk.

I never said that I was doing it right!    But I also noticed that the shooter in your video was holding 4+ MOA in the first run, and while he wasn't pulling as much to the right, he didn't improve overall group size much on the second run.  I shot more accurately than that but I couldn't keep up the cadence to finish in the allotted time.


Like I said.  I learned more about how to use my rifles in 2 days than I have in the last 10 years.  The 10/22 was the easier way to earn my patch.  Eventually, I plan to be able to make it happen with the bolt gun too--I just need practice

It's very "doable" with a bolt action.

I've never tried it myself.

I helped at an Appleseed in PA early on (my second one after the RBC I attended) and there was a young guy there with a Savage BA .22.  He shot rifleman scores more than once and would finish quickly enough he'd be helping his buddies beside him (coaching them).

Saw the same guy a couple years later at an Appleseed at Ramseur and immediately recognized him (not that many people shoot bolt action rifles that fast/accurately).

Limited time with borrowed gun, shooting for hits on black. Stock doesn't like sling tension as well.

What is the hive's take on the ability to qualify for a patch with a tube fed (9 rounds) semiauto Marlin .22?  I am really interested in doing an Appleseed. The Marlin is scoped, if that matters. And it's quite accurate at 25 yards.

You should be fine.  There are two legs (out of four) on the AQT that are timed, so you might not be able to get that 10th shot off.

On the stages where you have to do a reload it will be slower with that tube fed rifle.  You might want to start practicing the reloads.  

One way to do it might be firing 2 shots of the 8 in the magazine, stopping, put it on safe, flip it over, pull the internal tube enough to clear the loading port and insert the two rounds lying on your shooting mat, re-insert the tube, twist it to lock, flip the rifle over, sling up and fire the next 8 rounds.  

I'd practice on a target with multiple targets as the sitting and first prone stage have multiple targets that require a specified number of rounds per target and you'll want to be used to that along with when/where you do that reload.

The reason I suggested only shooting two and then reloading is to get it out of the way early and to remove having to manually cycle the bolt to load that round from the magazine to the chamber.

Not sure if the rules in use these days would allow that method.  They may want you to shoot it dry first but since you're bolt won't lock back after the last round you can't tell it's empty anyway without holding the bolt back and putting a .22 chamber flag in it.  Don't know if they'd consider loading two more into a tube fed rifle unsafe or not.

Safety is a thing.  Perceptions of safety are also a thing.

I know people who use tube fed .22's for small game hunting don't wait till the magazine is empty to top it off after shooting a squirrel or three.

But I'm not in it anymore and have no ideas how the rules may have changed over the years.