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Posted: 3/23/2017 2:39:42 PM EDT
Second time shooting my AR with match grade factory ammo. 100 yards, 81deg, moderately windy, off the bench. Here are my groups:
On top is 20 rds of Norma Match .223 77gr SMK HPBT. The circled group is the first 6 shots I did, then I adjusted the scope turrets down and right a little. The lower left target is 17 rds of IMI 5.56 Razor-core 77gr Match (all from the same box). The lower right target is the exact same IMI ammo, but from a different box. I bought these boxes about 3 weeks apart. It is very interesting how different the groups are, with the same ammo but from different boxes. 
Norma Match, about a 1-5/8" group 
IMI Razor-core. This box shot high and left, but the next box... 
...shot more spread out, but more centered. I'm still learning, and no where as proficient a shooter as most of ARFCOM probably. But I've experienced first-hand what Molon stated in that one long post. Last week I shot one 3-shot group with the IMI Razorcore that was about 3/4", and I was pretty pleased with myself. This week I shoot 20 rounds, and the group size gets much bigger. I'm not really thrilled with these groups, but I'm not certain what to expect from an AR. Any constructive feedback from the ARFCOM hive mind will be appreciated. |
| From the bench with a scope you can do a hell of alot better then that. Save the match ammo for now, put a few hundred more rounds through it then worry about groups.(sounds like it is brand new?) Wait between rounds for the barrel to cool down a little if your looking for tight groups.. What is the gun? barrel length, twist? Factory trigger? For my Colts very light loads make the groups tighten right up. You can do it, a good start. |
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From the bench with a scope you can do a hell of alot better then that. Save the match ammo for now, put a few hundred more rounds through it then worry about groups.(sounds like it is brand new?) Wait between rounds for the barrel to cool down a little if your looking for tight groups.. What is the gun? barrel length, twist? Factory trigger? For my Colts very light loads make the groups tighten right up. You can do it, a good start. The gun is my home build. 16" .223 Wylde, mid-length gas, 1:8, melonite, 5R rifling, barrel from Integrity Arms. The trigger is a PSA enhanced $30 job, nothing fancy. My scope is a Vortex Crossfire II 3-9x50. I'm gonna double check the scope mount screw torques tonight, just to be thorough. |
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I know right? The more I look at this, the less I'm happy with it. To answer your questions, the rifle isn't new. I've had it for a year, and have about 550 rounds thru it so far. I will let the barrel cool more next time, didn't think about that. I was shooting about 1 round every 10 seconds, loading just 5 rounds into the mag at a time. Give another 60 secs between mag changes. I can slow down though. The gun is my home build. 16" .223 Wylde, mid-length gas, 1:8, melonite, 5R rifling, barrel from Integrity Arms. The trigger is a PSA enhanced $30 job, nothing fancy. My scope is a Vortex Crossfire II 3-9x50. I'm gonna double check the scope mount screw torques tonight, just to be thorough. |
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3" 20 round groups are really not that bad. Plus some were smaller than that. Everyone on here shoots like a boss... You could do 5 or 10 round groups to see if they shrink. Your trigger might be an issue. If you told me you were just using your mag as a monopod and a 4x, I'd be all like that's pretty darned impressive. You weren't real clear how you were set up. Yeah, if you're all bagged up, front and back, and really taking the time with a 9x scope, you could maybe do better. But really 20 round groups. I wouldn't be poo pooing that.
And yeah, your gun may like different ammo more. I say it looks pretty decent. But sure, you could probably do better with the right ammo, set up and skill. What magnification were you shooting on? I don't agree with the other guy. Short barrels can be really accurate. |
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Yes, this just adds further to fuel to my "get into reloading" fire. I've been researching pretty hard, reading and watching whatever I can online. My first step is building a good workbench, which will be happening in the next several weeks. |
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3" 20 round groups are really not that bad. Plus some were smaller than that. Everyone on here shoots like a boss... You could do 5 or 10 round groups to see if they shrink. Your trigger might be an issue. If you told me you were just using your mag as a monopod and a 4x, I'd be all like that's pretty darned impressive. You weren't real clear how you were set up. Yeah, if you're all bagged up, front and back, and really taking the time with a 9x scope, you could maybe do better. But really 20 round groups. I wouldn't be poo pooing that. And yeah, your gun may like different ammo more. I say it looks pretty decent. But sure, you could probably do better with the right ammo, set up and skill. What magnification were you shooting on? I don't agree with the other guy. Short barrels can be really accurate. |
I started out building this rifle to just go bangity bangity, but as I've shot it more and more, and the only place I can shoot it is just to punch holes in paper, I've been wanting to make those holes closer and closer together. Here's the bench set up at Hotwells. Sorry it's kind of dark.
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Well, this is my suggestion if you just want to shoot tiny groups.
Use sandbags, front and back Get a lighter trigger use the most magnification you can, up to 9x-10x at 100 (if you get too high, it's just annoying and moves too much any little input and not really necessary, IMHO) handload study up on how to be a good shooter. I really don't know where to point you for that. Geee, so much help I am. Shoot less rounds. 10 max. Heat may start to be a problem, along with fatigue. Even 10 rounds start to be a stretch for me for focus and such. But I'm no spring chicken any longer. This is my last "precision" shooting session, if you can call it that. Just to show you I can sort of shoot a little bit maybe and sort of kind of know what I'm talking about. https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_16_4/4791_M1A_loaded_range_report___Curious_as_to_how_an_AR10_compares_____.html I can sort of do that with my recce AR. Although honestly I think the edge in accuracy goes to that particular rifle for getting small ish groups. I don't handload yet, so I need to follow my own advice if I want to shoot better. 
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Well, this is my suggestion if you just want to shoot tiny groups. Use sandbags, front and back Get a lighter trigger use the most magnification you can, up to 9x-10x at 100 (if you get too high, it's just annoying and moves too much any little input and not really necessary, IMHO) handload study up on how to be a good shooter. I really don't know where to point you for that. Geee, so much help I am. Shoot less rounds. 10 max. Heat may start to be a problem, along with fatigue. Even 10 rounds start to be a stretch for me for focus and such. But I'm no spring chicken any longer. This is my last "precision" shooting session, if you can call it that. Just to show you I can sort of shoot a little bit maybe and sort of kind of know what I'm talking about. https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_16_4/4791_M1A_loaded_range_report___Curious_as_to_how_an_AR10_compares_____.html I can sort of do that with my recce AR. Although honestly I think the edge in accuracy goes to that particular rifle for getting small ish groups. I don't handload yet, so I need to follow my own advice if I want to shoot better. 
Just kidding. Nice job! |
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There are a lot of things that you could work on to improve. Danger dan about a year ago discussed focusing on the reticle and not the target and that helped me out a lot. Dry firing several times a week also helped as did finding my natural point of aim and consistency with my shooting position, all of which took practice.
You might buy a few boxes of match ammo just to rule that out but my bet is it's a combo of many things. The ammo may improve your groups a bit, but work on building a strong foundation as well Oh make sure your rings are tight also |
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Use some bags and or bipod (I use bags or a DFT rest). Get a better trigger (I use MBT). Find some better ammo (I use my reloads or Australian Outback). PRACTCE.
I also have a home brew 16" 1/8 mid length AR-15. Bought a used Burris Fullfield II scope and QD mount. Typical results shown below. I stuck a dime on a staple for size comparison. 
10 shots about 10 seconds apart - I don't have the patience for cooling off..... |
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Maybe try a different type of target that your reticle falls right into and helps keeping centered.
And when you send each round be sure it is centered at the bang. Pretty much just being able to call a good shot and one you know was not good. A spotting scope or spotter would help seeing a bad shot and recognizing it for it is. Maybe Fatigue, a bad trigger pull, your bag or bipod allowing movement. Knowing gives you something to correct if need be. 5 round groups will be easier to see the good from bad. You'll learn more from them. Your 20 or so round groups aren't so bad really, That's pretty fast and likely the heat didn't help any. Factory ammo that may not even be what would shoot the best in your rifle. Check parallax, put the rifle on bags and scope dead center on a target. Now look through the scope and move your head just slightly to the left and right and see if the reticle moves. |
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Here's what I think about the 3-shot group; if you can shoot a good one and use it to adjust your scope and finally get on the center, and if you can then go there any day and hit the center with a good 3-shot group, the 3-shot group is legitimate. You have proved it is not coincidental by being able to repeat it at will. I can't deal with the 10-shot group because I'm too impatient - after 3 or 4 shots I lose concentration and its basically blasting.
I have a 16" CMMG RECCE middy barrel, 1:7, chromed, and I get a 1.25" 3-shot group on the POA with IMI 77 gr 'R C'. Wanting tight groups is not enough - you have to make it happen. As others have said, slow down, but you seem to be slow enough. Learn to use your breathing to time your shots. Support the rifle at both ends with firm, soft material like sand bags (really, nice clean plastic beads in a cotton bag) and use a short magazine that cannot touch the table. The trigger is critical; I never thought I would need a better one but after trying to shoot this 16" 'rifle' (A1 stock and middy hand guard make it look like a shorter rifle) with the military-grade lower parts kit, I knew I had to do something. I got an ALG-ACT and that did the trick. I do 'combat' shooting only - 5# single-action trigger is what I want. All this bench shooting is really for is the sighting-in process. Once you settle on ammo and get it zeroed, then you'll have the confidence you need when shooting in the field that the rifle is correct - the rest of it is you. When you get the trigger good, learn to squeeze it off and hold it back during the shot, which is 'follow-through'. 'Aim small, miss small' is good advice. I can use a 3" black Shoot-n-See at 100 yards with a 1" day-glo ball stuck on the center. Its just big enough so I can get the center of the cross hairs in it with my 4X scope. I don't like the targets you're using because the center is too indistinct. Give yourself every advantage in the zeroing process. In the field where the targets are real, you'll have to learn to quickly pick an aiming point and stick with it for the shot, but the idea is to get the zero as perfect as you can now for accurate shooting then. So, you should have a distinct center to aim at of a color that goes with the reticle you use. For example, with a dot sight I like to use a larger black ball with about a 3" white center. A black center would be indistinct and the red dot may get lost in a red center. For my TA01 scope with traditional black 'hairs', I use the blaze-orange 1" ball as I said. If I had an 'inverted horse shoe' reticle, say a green one. possibly a 3" black ball on a white background. You can be creative and figure out what is appropriate for whatever you're using. One trick that shows you graphically how much the muzzle is moving around while you're aiming is to put a laser on it. You sight the target with your scope while watching the laser dot dance around the target. Eye-opening to say the least. Control the muzzle, your breathing and the trigger. Aim small to miss small. Good results will follow. |
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I think we may have the same barrel. Is yours the Lothar Walther?
It is truly amazing how much difference ammo makes. 
As shown in the RECCE thread mine shot IMI M193 at two minutes, and I am very satisfied with that for ball ammo. 
The half MOA 5 shot group I got from the IMI 77 gr blew my mind, I hope it is not just that one box though. 
I tried 5 different types of ammo, and the worst was FIOCCI 50 gr Ballistic Tips. I shot a 5 round group at the bottom left corner of my 5 bullseye target and none hit the target. So I shifted to another empty target and aimed at the center bullseye, 10 rounds fired and only 4 hit the target.
I was a bit disappointed as I was looking forward to using that round on coyote, the search continues. FYI I was shooting from the prone, with my forend resting on my ruck. |
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Let's assume your technique and equipment are good to go.
You're firing groups at 100 yds / meters with assorted ammunition. Now let's backup just a little. Before firing these groups and perhaps averaging them, did you first zero the weapon at 100 with a particular round? When I say zero, I don't mean x number of rounds as if firing a group. I mean one round, adjust scope settings. Next round, etc. Each round is totally independent of the preceding round due to windage / elevation adjustments. Once zero is "perfect", then follow up with 3/5/etc - shot groups? Lastly, with all being the same as grouping at 100, have you tested groups at 50 (with a 50 zero)? |
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Humble brag!
Just kidding. Nice job! I've always found shooting for groups relaxing and I like doing it. But it really doesn't have a lot of real world practicality. Other than maybe learning the fundamentals of an accurate shot. What's impressive is dudes who can hit what they are aiming at fast, and moving, offhand, etc. |
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A few suggestions...
IMHO... we all know how fussy ammo can be. Given that... make sure you allow a few throw away shots when changing brand / type ammo prior to shooting for small groups... I have found that when changing ammo... the first few round will be thrown out side the main group. I believe that a barrel has to settle into the chosen ammo, and those throw away shots will help do it. I cannot explain it ... but it happens all the time to me. Next, I would try some ammo that has proven to be "accurate" across a broad range of shooters. Australian Outback 69gr SMK and 55gr BlitzKing Federal 50gr Tipped Varmint Those 2 have been very good cost wise and proven to be good choices for 100yds easy. As for 77gr factory loads... I suggest Creedmoor 77gr SMK .223 All those will be easier on your wallet. And I also think good bags front and rear ( squeeze bag ) help a lot. At the bench... be sure to aim at one point ( who cares where the ammo hits, as long as you can see it ) and do not alter your bench stance, at all, until you have fired that group. Skip coffee and cigs, and energy type drinks so your pulse rate is "normal". Any other thoughts or questions ? ... be sure to ask. We here all love sharing what works well for us. |
| I see a couple of possible problems. First I'd get a scope with more magnification. Shooting small groups wit a 3-9X scope is not impossible but is difficult imo. I'd suggest 4-16X scope Like the Vortex Viper or Burris XTR II 4-20X. You can start at 10X and work your way up to high power and see how you groups do. Second and just as impotent get a decent trigger. The LaRue MBT come to mind. If you have the funds a Geissele SSA or SSA-E would be my first choice. As others have said use a front and rear support. Last get some quality ammunition like 69 grain Federal Gold Medal Match. Once your set up practice your shooting mechanics. Good luck in your shooting. |
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I see a couple of possible problems. First I'd get a scope with more magnification. Shooting small groups wit a 3-9X scope is not impossible but is difficult imo. I'd suggest 4-16X scope Like the Vortex Viper or Burris XTR II 4-20X. You can start at 10X and work your way up to high power and see how you groups do. Second and just as impotent get a decent trigger. The LaRue MBT come to mind. If you have the funds a Geissele SSA or SSA-E would be my first choice. As others have said use a front and rear support. Last get some quality ammunition like 69 grain Federal Gold Medal Match. Once your set up practice your shooting mechanics. Good luck in your shooting. |
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Thanks for all the feedback, a lot of good info on here. I guess I'm just asking a little too much for the setup I have, which is a little disappointing as I've already spent what I feel is a lot, but it's all relative and there's always something better out there (for more $$$ of course). Just for info:
1. I have support at the front under the handguard (the Sight Bloc show in the picture), and sand bags under the rear. Actually, my left hand is under the rear, resting on the sandbags, and use that for fine-aiming just before firing. 2. I am slowly pressing the trigger, so slow to the point where it surprises me when it goes off. I hold the trigger back after firing, usually counting to 2 before releasing. 3. I only put 5 rounds in the mag, and fire all five before I move from the firing position. I generally fire at a rate of about one round every 10 seconds. Once I'm done, then I look thru the spotting scope to see what went where. 4. The target shown is the standard target they give you at this range. If you want different one, you to wait for the cease-fire and request it put out there for you. Kind of annoying, but that's how it is. But the red circle is quite easy to center on at 100 yards, because of the white circle in the middle. I don't really have the funds to upgrade the scope or the trigger at this stage, so I think I will just keep practicing with what I got. I've also only tried a few types of ammo, so I'll seek out some other stuff. I've only shot 55 & 62gr fmj, and 77 grain HPBT, so I'm curious as to what the lighter stuff will do as well. |
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