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Link Posted: 6/27/2015 7:17:00 PM EDT
[#1]
As the AK thread was, this is awesome!  I'll have to look you up in January.
Link Posted: 6/27/2015 7:18:31 PM EDT
[#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:


The customers don't drop the mags but the mag loaders and the RSO's definitely do. I've tried to implement ways to lesson the abuse but at average cost of $10 per magazine, it's hard to change the procedures in order to keep things moving. The RSO's will dump their mags into a bucket if they are with a group or larger party. The mag loaders will load the mags and if they don't have a cart to load them onto, they dump from table top height (4ft tall loading bench) into a 5-gallon bucket on the ground.

We really don't have a set maintenance for mags because most of them don't give us problems. The RSO's will check magazines first (after they finish with a customer) before they take a weapon back for malfunction issues. The AR an AK factory metal mags just run like champs but once in awhile if a magazine was used on a suppressed weapon it does cause carbon to build up. The guys will take them apart, run a few rag through, squeeze some oil, wipe it dry and put it back on the line.

To be fair about the Pmags, they have replaced all the broken mags we have returned to them. It's not like we break them everyday but when they do break, it's usually at the back of the magazine or near the rear portion of the feed lips. The Magpul G36 mags are rock solid and we yet to break one of those in over two and half years.

V/R
Ron
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Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Originally Posted By Krater:
Originally Posted By NCHornet:
Great thread with good solid info. So much for those replacing barrels at 10K, lol!!!!!!  The one huge surprise, for me at least, is the mag. I would have never guessed that USGI would out last the PMags. I have just the opposite experience with mags. Were you doing any particular maintenance to these mags the more rounds went through them? One drop and I usually would end of bending the feed lips and they were useless until this was corrected. I haven't had a single issue with any of my PMags, but the rounds y'all are putting through in a month s more than I will shoot the rest of my life, lol!!!! Just curious to learn a little more about how the mags are used and maintained, 20 or 30 rnd? I also use TW25B lube, grease and their cleaner is top notch. It isn't cheap but quality seldom is.
NCH


I'm guessing most of Battlefield Las Vegas customers don't drop mags.


The customers don't drop the mags but the mag loaders and the RSO's definitely do. I've tried to implement ways to lesson the abuse but at average cost of $10 per magazine, it's hard to change the procedures in order to keep things moving. The RSO's will dump their mags into a bucket if they are with a group or larger party. The mag loaders will load the mags and if they don't have a cart to load them onto, they dump from table top height (4ft tall loading bench) into a 5-gallon bucket on the ground.

We really don't have a set maintenance for mags because most of them don't give us problems. The RSO's will check magazines first (after they finish with a customer) before they take a weapon back for malfunction issues. The AR an AK factory metal mags just run like champs but once in awhile if a magazine was used on a suppressed weapon it does cause carbon to build up. The guys will take them apart, run a few rag through, squeeze some oil, wipe it dry and put it back on the line.

To be fair about the Pmags, they have replaced all the broken mags we have returned to them. It's not like we break them everyday but when they do break, it's usually at the back of the magazine or near the rear portion of the feed lips. The Magpul G36 mags are rock solid and we yet to break one of those in over two and half years.

V/R
Ron


Spectacular thread, thank you for all this information since your stuff actually gets used pretty hard from what you are describing.  In case you use silencers on the line, have you noticed that any types (or materials) of cans that seem to wear out quicker than others?  The more specific the info the better, but I understand that may or may not be possible.  Thanks again!
Link Posted: 6/27/2015 7:56:19 PM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Stickman:
Good info, thanks for sharing.
View Quote


+1 Thank you
Link Posted: 6/27/2015 8:19:46 PM EDT
[#4]
Link Posted: 6/27/2015 9:51:27 PM EDT
[#5]
Have you ever considered trying a few LMT enhanced bolts?

Supposedly they've never heard of one breaking.

Might be the ticket for the heavy use you are putting the ARs through.

Just a thought.

BTW, great thread and great info, thank you!
Link Posted: 6/27/2015 10:05:40 PM EDT
[#6]
for the record my PSA 12" loves wolf gold
Link Posted: 6/27/2015 10:06:13 PM EDT
[#7]
Ron, sweet that the td416 rocks!

I need to go to the range with my 16" td
Link Posted: 6/27/2015 10:37:34 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By fordkicksass:

Spectacular thread, thank you for all this information since your stuff actually gets used pretty hard from what you are describing.  In case you use silencers on the line, have you noticed that any types (or materials) of cans that seem to wear out quicker than others?  The more specific the info the better, but I understand that may or may not be possible.  Thanks again!
View Quote


We use the following suppressors on the these weapons:

Surefire: Barrett .50BMG, M240, M249
AAC: M16/M4, Glock, Beretta,Walther P22, Sig Mosquito
Silencerco: FNP
YHM: M16/M4, Glock, Berreta, Walther P22, Sig Mosquito
Bowers: MAC-10, MAC-11 (.380)
TPM: MP5-SD

All of the cans have held up and each has suffered some sort of baffle strike from barely noticeable to extremely noticeable with the exception of the Barrett .50BMG suppressor. We don't use it that often but now that we have our upgraded M107A1 headed back from Barrett, it will start to be used on a regular basis.

V/R
Ron

Link Posted: 6/27/2015 11:06:38 PM EDT
[#9]
Awesome information, thank you! By any chance, if you're able to say, have you tried using PWS brand rifles, and if so, how long did they last for?
Link Posted: 6/27/2015 11:16:24 PM EDT
[#10]
Do you keep track of mrbs?
Link Posted: 6/27/2015 11:18:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: veeklog] [#11]
Fantastic thread; Colt or LMT BCG's are my favorite, and they are the only ones I use. I believe J&T/Doublestar barrels are made by ER Shaw, and have used a couple without problems
Link Posted: 6/27/2015 11:24:19 PM EDT
[#12]
I just wanna jump on the kiss-ass band wagon and say I really appreciate the time you take to make these posts. You have a very unique insight into something we all love. Mucho gracias...
Link Posted: 6/27/2015 11:29:28 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By zackmars:
Do you keep track of mrbs?
View Quote


It's not feasible for us to keep track of MRBS because of the pace on the range. Also, it's not something that's really plays a big part of what we do. My RSO's are tasked with customer safety first and then customer satisfaction. They couldn't provide both of those and try and keep track of weapons jamming and take the info back to the armorers without the first two starting to lack. If a weapon jams once, there's a good chance it was user-related but a second jam means the customer gets a new weapon and they start all over with a fresh magazine, even if they got 24 out of 25 rounds down range. Most of the customers won't take the additional magazine because they feel guilty but it's worth the cost of the ammo to make sure leave with a huge grin and satisfied.

V/R
Ron
Link Posted: 6/28/2015 1:14:48 AM EDT
[#14]
That is just good customer service.

I wish all companies were as good.

best

mqqn
Link Posted: 6/28/2015 1:56:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: jBoy723] [#15]
Just wanted to take the time to thank you for chiming in on your experiences, it is definitely appreciated. I will echo what others have said and would like to see you add a few offerings from Knights Armament to your inventory. The SR25 series, in my opinion, are one of the best semi auto gas guns available but, I would definitely like to see how their SR16 series hold up compared to the others you current have in rotation.

Keep the information coming, you for sure have a captive audience.
Link Posted: 6/28/2015 10:48:30 AM EDT
[#16]
Thanks for posting the information.

Since you actually do shoot so much through the rifles, I am curious just how well the CHF "machine gun steel" barrels with heavy chrome lining hold up. Granted, you mentioned that you are only shooting for close range, but it would be interesting to see just how much more these barrels hold their accuracy over other barrels.

I have some of these CHF barrels, and I like them just fine, but I'll never be able to put tens of thousands of rounds through mine!
Link Posted: 6/28/2015 11:07:18 AM EDT
[#17]
Was waiting for this after seeing the AK thread. Thank you for sharing.
Link Posted: 6/28/2015 11:26:44 AM EDT
[#18]
Tag
Link Posted: 6/28/2015 11:38:05 AM EDT
[#19]
Great insight.



Another +1 from me on seeing SR16 and E3 bolt performance.
Link Posted: 6/28/2015 11:56:46 AM EDT
[#20]
Besides magpul and USGI, what other brands of mags do you use, and how have they done?
Link Posted: 6/28/2015 1:21:51 PM EDT
[#21]
In your experience, how did chf barrels perform compared to button rifled barrels, as far as reliability, longevity is concerned.  Does chf really out last button rifled barrels?

Thanks for the info.
Link Posted: 6/28/2015 1:25:38 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:


The customers don't drop the mags but the mag loaders and the RSO's definitely do. I've tried to implement ways to lesson the abuse but at average cost of $10 per magazine, it's hard to change the procedures in order to keep things moving. The RSO's will dump their mags into a bucket if they are with a group or larger party. The mag loaders will load the mags and if they don't have a cart to load them onto, they dump from table top height (4ft tall loading bench) into a 5-gallon bucket on the ground.

We really don't have a set maintenance for mags because most of them don't give us problems. The RSO's will check magazines first (after they finish with a customer) before they take a weapon back for malfunction issues. The AR an AK factory metal mags just run like champs but once in awhile if a magazine was used on a suppressed weapon it does cause carbon to build up. The guys will take them apart, run a few rag through, squeeze some oil, wipe it dry and put it back on the line.

To be fair about the Pmags, they have replaced all the broken mags we have returned to them. It's not like we break them everyday but when they do break, it's usually at the back of the magazine or near the rear portion of the feed lips. The Magpul G36 mags are rock solid and we yet to break one of those in over two and half years.

V/R
Ron
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Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Originally Posted By Krater:
Originally Posted By NCHornet:
Great thread with good solid info. So much for those replacing barrels at 10K, lol!!!!!!  The one huge surprise, for me at least, is the mag. I would have never guessed that USGI would out last the PMags. I have just the opposite experience with mags. Were you doing any particular maintenance to these mags the more rounds went through them? One drop and I usually would end of bending the feed lips and they were useless until this was corrected. I haven't had a single issue with any of my PMags, but the rounds y'all are putting through in a month s more than I will shoot the rest of my life, lol!!!! Just curious to learn a little more about how the mags are used and maintained, 20 or 30 rnd? I also use TW25B lube, grease and their cleaner is top notch. It isn't cheap but quality seldom is.
NCH


I'm guessing most of Battlefield Las Vegas customers don't drop mags.


The customers don't drop the mags but the mag loaders and the RSO's definitely do. I've tried to implement ways to lesson the abuse but at average cost of $10 per magazine, it's hard to change the procedures in order to keep things moving. The RSO's will dump their mags into a bucket if they are with a group or larger party. The mag loaders will load the mags and if they don't have a cart to load them onto, they dump from table top height (4ft tall loading bench) into a 5-gallon bucket on the ground.

We really don't have a set maintenance for mags because most of them don't give us problems. The RSO's will check magazines first (after they finish with a customer) before they take a weapon back for malfunction issues. The AR an AK factory metal mags just run like champs but once in awhile if a magazine was used on a suppressed weapon it does cause carbon to build up. The guys will take them apart, run a few rag through, squeeze some oil, wipe it dry and put it back on the line.

To be fair about the Pmags, they have replaced all the broken mags we have returned to them. It's not like we break them everyday but when they do break, it's usually at the back of the magazine or near the rear portion of the feed lips. The Magpul G36 mags are rock solid and we yet to break one of those in over two and half years.

V/R
Ron

How do you deal with usgi mags that get dropped fully loaded and bend feed lips?  Any reliability issues after being bent back into shape?

Link Posted: 6/28/2015 2:58:09 PM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By nchapa:

How do you deal with usgi mags that get dropped fully loaded and bend feed lips?  Any reliability issues after being bent back into shape?

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Originally Posted By nchapa:
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Originally Posted By Krater:
Originally Posted By NCHornet:
Great thread with good solid info. So much for those replacing barrels at 10K, lol!!!!!!  The one huge surprise, for me at least, is the mag. I would have never guessed that USGI would out last the PMags. I have just the opposite experience with mags. Were you doing any particular maintenance to these mags the more rounds went through them? One drop and I usually would end of bending the feed lips and they were useless until this was corrected. I haven't had a single issue with any of my PMags, but the rounds y'all are putting through in a month s more than I will shoot the rest of my life, lol!!!! Just curious to learn a little more about how the mags are used and maintained, 20 or 30 rnd? I also use TW25B lube, grease and their cleaner is top notch. It isn't cheap but quality seldom is.
NCH


I'm guessing most of Battlefield Las Vegas customers don't drop mags.


The customers don't drop the mags but the mag loaders and the RSO's definitely do. I've tried to implement ways to lesson the abuse but at average cost of $10 per magazine, it's hard to change the procedures in order to keep things moving. The RSO's will dump their mags into a bucket if they are with a group or larger party. The mag loaders will load the mags and if they don't have a cart to load them onto, they dump from table top height (4ft tall loading bench) into a 5-gallon bucket on the ground.

We really don't have a set maintenance for mags because most of them don't give us problems. The RSO's will check magazines first (after they finish with a customer) before they take a weapon back for malfunction issues. The AR an AK factory metal mags just run like champs but once in awhile if a magazine was used on a suppressed weapon it does cause carbon to build up. The guys will take them apart, run a few rag through, squeeze some oil, wipe it dry and put it back on the line.

To be fair about the Pmags, they have replaced all the broken mags we have returned to them. It's not like we break them everyday but when they do break, it's usually at the back of the magazine or near the rear portion of the feed lips. The Magpul G36 mags are rock solid and we yet to break one of those in over two and half years.

V/R
Ron

How do you deal with usgi mags that get dropped fully loaded and bend feed lips?  Any reliability issues after being bent back into shape?



Brownell's tan follower mags don't deform from mild drops onto concrete.  Check out the test I did.

https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=17&t=610837


Link Posted: 6/28/2015 6:28:25 PM EDT
[#24]
The info in this thread is amazing!!!!  I hope it keeps coming!
Link Posted: 6/28/2015 9:29:35 PM EDT
[#25]
Yes thanks very much! Good read!
Link Posted: 6/28/2015 11:49:01 PM EDT
[#26]
Great info.  Thanks!
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 12:41:40 AM EDT
[#27]
I will get some of your questions answered when I get back in town. Don't think I'm ignoring you guys.

V/R
Ron
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 1:51:05 AM EDT
[#28]
Holy crap this post is awesome. Thank you very much for sharing the info!

Mods, can we sticky this just because it's that awesome?
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 1:56:22 AM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
I will get some of your questions answered when I get back in town. Don't think I'm ignoring you guys.

V/R
Ron
View Quote


Acutally, you have been quite helpful.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 5:19:49 AM EDT
[#30]
Please forgive the enthusiasm.  This is the "Holy Grail" of non-anecdotal data that is being collected.  You are answering a lot of questions with no bias besides what works for you business.  CHF vs Standard cmv barrels, lube options, maintenance routines, magazine options, common part failure, round count are all things, until now, were explained anecdotally.  Thank you for taking the time from your business to answer our questions.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 8:25:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: M4Tank] [#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Alexville:
Please forgive the enthusiasm.  This is the "Holy Grail" of non-anecdotal data that is being collected.  You are answering a lot of questions with no bias besides what works for you business.  CHF vs Standard cmv barrels, lube options, maintenance routines, magazine options, common part failure, round count are all things, until now, were explained anecdotally.  Thank you for taking the time from your business to answer our questions.
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Originally Posted By Alexville:
Please forgive the enthusiasm.  This is the "Holy Grail" of non-anecdotal data that is being collected.  You are answering a lot of questions with no bias besides what works for you business.  CHF vs Standard cmv barrels, lube options, maintenance routines, magazine options, common part failure, round count are all things, until now, were explained anecdotally.  Thank you for taking the time from your business to answer our questions.

I haven't read anything stated by the OP that I would say "clearly" one outlasts the other. Other than the "one" HF MR556 barrel only lasted 10k rounds.

I might have missed one, but below is what I gathered the OP stated about barrels.

Some of our M4's have well over 200,000 rounds down range. Barrels have been replaced

At what rd count we're these barrels replaced and were the HF or not?

 I purchased a FACTORY brand-new MR556 and it started keyholing after only 10,000 rounds. 

One, correct? edit: just read the MR556 is NOT chrome lined. Not really fair to compare that.

 I had barrels from before we even opened the range with 1,000's of rounds on them from J&T Distributing (chrome-lined) that didn't keyhole well into the 80,000-100,000 range. 

Don't know much at J&T, we're any of these barrels HF?

As for barrels, a majority of the barrels are DD and LMT. 

Are you getting the same 80k-100k out of these?

The same goes with the barrels. I was BLOWN away one day when I walked back into the armory and one of the armorers said "doc, I hope you don't get pissed but one of your original barrels is done". I was the completely opposite of mad because I couldn't believe a J&T barrel lasted that long when I've always believe the old "25,000-30,000" barrel life for an AR/M4. It opened my eyes to all the things that I read previously and never had the time or money (wife has ALWAYS held on tight to the purse strings) to go shoot 50,000 rounds down range and verify for myself.
 

I stand by the standard vs HF barrel life are about equal. Nothing to back up this claim, but I have yet to see anything that "proves" HF last longer.

Perhaps the OP has the best evidence to date on this...
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 10:04:57 AM EDT
[#32]
Fantastic thread, thank you.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 10:09:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: lazyengineer] [#33]
Best Thread Evah!

There's a lot of info here, some of it surprising.  To summarize the various replys so far from the OP:

- Brownell's GI mags outlast PMags.  They outlast everything in fact.  That, I would not have expected.
- With some possible exceptions, piston AR's don't hold up.  Again, not something I would have expected.  I personally always thought they were a gimmick, but didn't think any but the crudest renditions would fail any faster than DI.
- Changing handles fail.  Again, unexpected.  I just figured it's a near static piece that would last basically forever.
- No comment on extractors.  I would have thought those would fail faster than the cam pin or lugs.  That said, perhaps an oversite to mention by HndersonDefense, or possibly they are considered consumables and just not even worth noting?  
- Apparently Bolt's and BCG's aren't all the same after all (a common mantra here). DD and LMT bolts hold up better than all others.  
- Good barrels are lasting much much longer than the ~25,000 round expectation (though not clear what the round count actually is).  That's incredible.  These are full auto guns.  That has got to be wearing out BBL's way faster than more normal semi-auto fire (heat).  Details aren't completely clear, but it's sounding like hammer forged barrels hold up better(?). A barrel is considered a crappy BBL if it only lasts 10k rounds.
- Short barrel rifles have much faster throat erosion.  I don't know why, you'd think they'd be under less heat for a shorter period of time.  At a guess, maybe it's because the early pressure release (bullet exits sooner), allows the chamber contents of hot and large kernels of still-burning powder to eject down the barrel.  Just a guess.
-
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 11:16:26 AM EDT
[#34]
Thanks for giving insight into your side of the industry. I find it fascinating and informative to learn about the "behind the scenes" stuff in any industry.

What do you do with all of your brass? Is it even worth your time to sell it other than for scrap metal prices?
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 11:34:20 AM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:


We used Magtech .223 ammo until they got a military contract and couldn't keep up with production. If fairness, they told us 6-8 months in advance that they were pretty sure a contract was coming and that we needed to make sure we had another supplier available in the event they got it. Magtech has been the cleanest of all the ammo we used followed closely by Privi Partizan. I try to avoid Federal and will only use them if no other suppliers are available with the exception of the .50 BMG round.

We are currently using Wolf Gold series of brass case ammo. We've gone through over 500,000 rounds with zero issues. It burns clean and pretty damn close to 5.56mm spec's even though it's listed as .223 Remington.

V/R
Ron
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Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Originally Posted By zackmars:
Do you use any BCM's?

What ammo do you run? M193?


We used Magtech .223 ammo until they got a military contract and couldn't keep up with production. If fairness, they told us 6-8 months in advance that they were pretty sure a contract was coming and that we needed to make sure we had another supplier available in the event they got it. Magtech has been the cleanest of all the ammo we used followed closely by Privi Partizan. I try to avoid Federal and will only use them if no other suppliers are available with the exception of the .50 BMG round.

We are currently using Wolf Gold series of brass case ammo. We've gone through over 500,000 rounds with zero issues. It burns clean and pretty damn close to 5.56mm spec's even though it's listed as .223 Remington.

V/R
Ron


Why is this?
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 11:36:52 AM EDT
[#36]
I was referring to the future collection of data where he said he would keep us posted.  This COULD tell us more about barrel longevity  in regards to the manufacture process.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 11:59:14 AM EDT
[#37]
tag
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 12:01:36 PM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Alexville:
I was referring to the future collection of data where he said he would keep us posted.  This COULD tell us more about barrel longevity  in regards to the manufacture process.
View Quote


I keep telling you guys, it's not the process that leads to barrel longevity so much as the steel.  The engineer at FN specifically stated that it is FN's propriety blend of steel ("machine gun steel") that leads to such a long life in their CHF M249 barrels.  They also use a different type of chrome that plates on thicker than that used in the bores of the M4s.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 12:02:09 PM EDT
[#39]
This is our first "vacation" (just a quick, two-day drive to the beach) since we opened the range and I promised the wife no business so I'll make it quick with a few points.

- we do lose extractors and even lost the extractor on the HK. I don't blame them because we have had extractors break at early round counts and high round counts from the same mfr's.

- we've used CHF barrels alongside standard chrome-lined barrels (LMT, J&T, Green Mountain) and though I don't have a true round count, they were put online at about the same time with the same amount of use and one didn't do "better" than the other. Remember, my only concern for accuracy is that it can hit the red center of a target at 15 yards.

V/R
Ron
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 1:12:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: peecmkr45] [#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:


We've used primarily DD and LMT BCG's for the last 2 years with more DD's than LMT's. We used other brands before that trying to save a few bucks and they never lasted. We learned quick that it was cheaper to just go with a BCG that was slightly more expensive

As for barrels, a majority of the barrels are DD and LMT. We have used the Green Mountain 20" pencil barrels for our M16A1's with zero issues. They get used every day and they continue to headspace fine and no issues of keyholing. As stated in a post above, we just purchased twenty of the PSA barrels made under contract by FN and so far they have good to go.

V/R
Ron
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Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Originally Posted By AR-Ryan21:
So you've been using primarily DD and LMT barrels/bolts to date?


We've used primarily DD and LMT BCG's for the last 2 years with more DD's than LMT's. We used other brands before that trying to save a few bucks and they never lasted. We learned quick that it was cheaper to just go with a BCG that was slightly more expensive

As for barrels, a majority of the barrels are DD and LMT. We have used the Green Mountain 20" pencil barrels for our M16A1's with zero issues. They get used every day and they continue to headspace fine and no issues of keyholing. As stated in a post above, we just purchased twenty of the PSA barrels made under contract by FN and so far they have good to go.

V/R
Ron



When using BCG's manufactured by other than DD or LMT what failures did you see. You have mentioned failures of individual bolt components such as cam pins, bolt lugs etc. Other than the shearing of gas key screws(you mentioned gas tube shearing off) what can fail on the bolt carrier itself? I would think these would last indefinitely.



Keep the real world experience coming. It is pretty rare to get this type of info on high round count rifles and parts.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 1:29:07 PM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
This is our first "vacation" (just a quick, two-day drive to the beach) since we opened the range and I promised the wife no business so I'll make it quick with a few points.

- we do lose extractors and even lost the extractor on the HK. I don't blame them because we have had extractors break at early round counts and high round counts from the same mfr's.

- we've used CHF barrels alongside standard chrome-lined barrels (LMT, J&T, Green Mountain) and though I don't have a true round count, they were put online at about the same time with the same amount of use and one didn't do "better" than the other. Remember, my only concern for accuracy is that it can hit the red center of a target at 15 yards.

V/R
Ron
View Quote

This is sig line material, at the very minimum just to quick reference everytime the question comes up which is almost daily.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 1:37:05 PM EDT
[#42]
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Originally Posted By nchapa:

This is sig line material, at the very minimum just to quick reference everytime the question comes up which is almost daily.
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Originally Posted By nchapa:
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
This is our first "vacation" (just a quick, two-day drive to the beach) since we opened the range and I promised the wife no business so I'll make it quick with a few points.

- we do lose extractors and even lost the extractor on the HK. I don't blame them because we have had extractors break at early round counts and high round counts from the same mfr's.

- we've used CHF barrels alongside standard chrome-lined barrels (LMT, J&T, Green Mountain) and though I don't have a true round count, they were put online at about the same time with the same amount of use and one didn't do "better" than the other. Remember, my only concern for accuracy is that it can hit the red center of a target at 15 yards.

V/R
Ron

This is sig line material, at the very minimum just to quick reference everytime the question comes up which is almost daily.


I'd like to see data from 50 yards +
Kind of hard to judge loss of accuracy from 15 yards.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 1:44:06 PM EDT
[#43]
Great thread. Thanks for the write up.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 2:02:27 PM EDT
[#44]
No reason to get a full SR-16 when all you'd need is an upper.

Their SR-15 buffer is 3oz just like a standard carbine buffer.  The spring is also standard carbine fodder.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 2:15:47 PM EDT
[#45]
Great info, thank you for sharing.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 2:28:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Blain] [#46]
It's amusing to see all the KAC fanboys come out of the woodwork nervously looking and hoping to find validation!  
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 2:42:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Dieselman] [#47]
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Originally Posted By pezboytate:


Why is this?
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Originally Posted By pezboytate:
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Originally Posted By zackmars:
Do you use any BCM's?

What ammo do you run? M193?


We used Magtech .223 ammo until they got a military contract and couldn't keep up with production. If fairness, they told us 6-8 months in advance that they were pretty sure a contract was coming and that we needed to make sure we had another supplier available in the event they got it. Magtech has been the cleanest of all the ammo we used followed closely by Privi Partizan. I try to avoid Federal and will only use them if no other suppliers are available with the exception of the .50 BMG round.

We are currently using Wolf Gold series of brass case ammo. We've gone through over 500,000 rounds with zero issues. It burns clean and pretty damn close to 5.56mm spec's even though it's listed as .223 Remington.

V/R
Ron


Why is this?





He stated in his high round count pistol thread the following about Federal and why they use Magtech instead :


We use their ammo for several reasons.. honesty, quality and reliability. We've dealt with Federal/ATK over the years and THE MOMENT there is any type of ammo hysteria they will immediately cancel all existing orders and be gracious enough to let us re-order the same ammo at a higher price. Magtech has never pulled that on us and always kept an open order regardless of any sales hype. The ammo has always run clean in our weapons and the ammo has been consistent from lot to lot. Lastly, all of our weapons function on it where others are loaded to light or primers back out and jam the weapons.

The honesty is the biggest concern for me because there's nothing like getting an email from Federal ATK saying that all the ammo that we agreed to sell you two months ago is much more valuable now and we are going back on our word.


Link Posted: 6/29/2015 4:15:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: lazyengineer] [#48]
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Originally Posted By LeonC:


I'd like to see data from 50 yards +
Kind of hard to judge loss of accuracy from 15 yards.
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Originally Posted By LeonC:
Originally Posted By nchapa:
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
This is our first "vacation" (just a quick, two-day drive to the beach) since we opened the range and I promised the wife no business so I'll make it quick with a few points.

- we do lose extractors and even lost the extractor on the HK. I don't blame them because we have had extractors break at early round counts and high round counts from the same mfr's.

- we've used CHF barrels alongside standard chrome-lined barrels (LMT, J&T, Green Mountain) and though I don't have a true round count, they were put online at about the same time with the same amount of use and one didn't do "better" than the other. Remember, my only concern for accuracy is that it can hit the red center of a target at 15 yards.

V/R
Ron

This is sig line material, at the very minimum just to quick reference everytime the question comes up which is almost daily.


I'd like to see data from 50 yards +
Kind of hard to judge loss of accuracy from 15 yards.


This is where the lucky-gunner data comes in handy.  While there was some slight accuracy degradation (at 50 yards), it held pretty good until the keyholing started.  In their case, somewhere between 4000-6000 rounds, with Wolf Steel (steel jacketed bullets).  They never hit it with the brass jacketed bullets during those LuckyGunner tests (though did see velocity decline).   Note Henderson Defense is not using cheaper steel cased ammo - for fairly obvious reasons I imagine.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 4:54:30 PM EDT
[#49]
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Originally Posted By LeonC:


I'd like to see data from 50 yards +
Kind of hard to judge loss of accuracy from 15 yards.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By LeonC:
Originally Posted By nchapa:
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
This is our first "vacation" (just a quick, two-day drive to the beach) since we opened the range and I promised the wife no business so I'll make it quick with a few points.

- we do lose extractors and even lost the extractor on the HK. I don't blame them because we have had extractors break at early round counts and high round counts from the same mfr's.

- we've used CHF barrels alongside standard chrome-lined barrels (LMT, J&T, Green Mountain) and though I don't have a true round count, they were put online at about the same time with the same amount of use and one didn't do "better" than the other. Remember, my only concern for accuracy is that it can hit the red center of a target at 15 yards.

V/R
Ron

This is sig line material, at the very minimum just to quick reference everytime the question comes up which is almost daily.


I'd like to see data from 50 yards +
Kind of hard to judge loss of accuracy from 15 yards.

No kidding.

Nothing has been said that takes anything away from the CHF debate. 15 yard accuracy? Lol.

You guys really need to read up on all the LMG testing that was done. CHF was found to be insanely more durable. Not apples to apples comparing LMGs to semi auto ARs, but more durable is more durable.

Thing is, I'm tired of getting sucked back into this rehash anyway. Frankly, it is literally the exact same four people who speak out against CHF having any benefits. Every time. Just the same four people. Though droves of people speak out in contrast to that small group of four - that includes engineers and machinists as well. At this point, we should probably just let those four live in their bubble.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 4:57:31 PM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Blain:
It's amusing to see all the KAC fanboys come out of the woodwork nervously looking and hoping to find validation!  
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Who looks nervous?

I simply see people saying that it'd be cool if he had an SR-16 to rent out and abuse as well...
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