Howdy everyone, been exploring this site and decided I had to join. I'm from Arkansas and I've been shooting my uncle's AR for a couple of months and am now in love with it. His is a pre-ban 20" Bushmaster, I think. I'm planning on getting one, and I was thinking about the carbine version. A couple of questions: should I build my own (not a rich man), what manufacturer should I use, do you like the 16" version (I like the lower weight), is there such a thing as group buys with the AR, are there other things I should know before purchasing, etc. I own a couple of rifles and shotguns, I'm just ignorant in this particuar area and would appreciate any help.

Thanks,
Rookie

Go out to your friendly neighborhood gun store and pick up a bushmaster off the rack. If the shop is well stocked they will have a few to choose from. For price I'd think somewhere around $800/$900 should do you just fine.

Welcome....

Now, how much money do you wish to spend [}:D]?

At times, building your own can cost more in the long run, but you don't spend that huge amount right away.  If you shop around, you can find "deals".  What usually kills one is the shipping, it adds up.  Trust me, I know....

If you are wanting to learn the ins and outs of the AR, then building is the way to go.  I would suggest a complet upper, don't assemble.  But that's me....

I'm willing to spend whatever I need to, when it comes to firearms I look for quality first. Again, I'm looking for something in the carbine configuration, as my AR will undoubtedly be humped over the Ozarks during the fall and winter seasons. Thoughts on the carbine? Optics in the 100-150 m range? Is the telescopic buttstock standard? Thanks for the previous replies and all future ones. I'm hungry for AR knowledge, feed me!!!

Make sure that the lower receiver was assembled into a complete rifle prior to september 1994 before you add a true collapsible stock.  Otherwise, your choices are the "standard" A2 stock, fixed (read pinned and welded) telestock, ACE skeleton stock, and maybe some others.  Unless you want to get rid of your pistol grip, detach mag, or misguided liberals in exchange!!!  Your optics choice will depend on what you want out of your rifle, I think you could generally seperate choices into two categories:  SPEED or ACCURACY.  Most folks opt to put ACOGS, AIMPOINTS, and EOTECHS on the carbines (as they are designed for speed in CQB situations) and save the magnified Leupolds, Zeiss, etc for SPRs with 20" bbls.

Yeah, I'm looking for speed, not range for my optics. I have a 7mm Rem Mag for the "where the hell did that come from" shots. It would be used mainly for medium-sized game and campsite protection. So you're saying you can't buy a post-ban AR with a true telescopic buttstock? Or even accessorize one legally? I would love to buy a carbine with that kind of stock. I know there's more to it than that, but that's basically what I want to start out with and then go from there.

Get an AR with a flat top, then you should invest in an EOTech 502 or 511 for the best and thge feastest close in engagement optic on the market.

I suggest the 502 or the 511 for the price, if you want to spend more, you can go with the military version which is the 551.

Welcome aboard, it is always good to see newcomers.  

Yup, you read it right.  The AWB (assualt weapons ban) is supposed to sunset/expire in September next year.  If that happens you can spend around $40 (Cavalry Arms) and put a collapsible stock on it legally.  IMO, stick to small game with a 5.56mm/.233 round.  I'm not saying it wont kill deer, but if you got the 7mm use it.  Besides, bowhuntin is more fun!!!

Well,sounds to me that you have a lot of reading to do. AR-15.com is sorta like a big city...lots of areas to cover. Start here for optics,grasshopper. [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=3&f=18[/url]  Lots of good info tacked at the top of each forum... You might try the EE to find a rifle or parts. Builders forum if your thinking about putting one together. Industry forums for questions to the manufactures. That should get you started.[:)]

Thanks for the feedback, gentlemen. That AWB business pisses me off, I don't want to wait until September 2004 to get that stock! I like the compactness of it, not to mention it looks cool. Alright, another ignorant question. If I were to buy a carbine, does the carrying handle just come off no matter the receiver or would I need to buy a version that had a special receiver to mount the optics? Is there anything else basic that I should know? And I hear you on the 7mm comment, lol. The AR would definitely be secondary. Not much of a bowhunting fan though, I like recoil and loud noises.  

Go here. [url]http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/uppers/[/url]

For the detachable carry handle, you need to buy a flat top (otherwise known as a A3) upper receiver.  This way, you can use carry handle sights, or remove them for use with optics and a back up type rear sight.

For compactness, there are several options for a stock:

[url=http://www.defensive-edge.net/tacticalstore.html]Sully Stock[/url]The Sully Stock is the smae length as a collapsible stock open to the first notch, which is halfway open on a four or three position stock.  This stock length, IMHO, is the perfect length for any situation.  It is versatile enough to be used with light clothing or heavy clothing.  The shorter the useable length of pull, the faster the weapon is to get on target and the easier it is to stabilize the weapon.  The sully stock is at the lenght that is, in my expereience, the best useable lenght of the stock no matter what gear or clothing I have on.

[url=http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=22&t=173414&w=searchPop]ROCK RIVER ARMS L.E. ENTRY TACTICAL BUTTSTOCK KIT WITH KNIGHT'S ONE INCH STOCK EXTENSION SLING MOUNT [/url]  This is abpout the same size as the sully stock.  The stock can be used by itself, and is about the same length as a collapsible stock in the fully closed position.  The stock can also be purchased without the spacer at [url=http://ar15sales.com/rraparts.htm#parts]Legal Transfers[/url] or [url=http://www.adcofirearms.com/rockriver/rockriver.cfm?page=rra]Adco[/url]

[url=http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=22&t=167618&w=searchPop]ARFX-E stocks[/url]  This is about the same length as the RRA stock, and it has the option of a half inch or one inch spacer/buttpad for added length.

I am sure there are other options as well, but these are the most popular.  Hope these help until the ban sunsets.

So I could buy a pre-ban lower and upper receiver and then I could buy and attach a telescopic stock legally? I'm assuming this is expensive. I also don't like used firearm parts, generally speaking. Options?

Yes, you will need a preban rifle to install a collapsible stock.  A preban will cost you over $1000 usually.  Also, keep in mind that unless a lower receiver is specifically marked "AR15" (i.e. a Colt), it cannot be sold separately from a complete rifle and still retain its preban status.  It is a legal technicality, but why take the risk.  

My suggestion is try one of the stocks I listed above and see if the ban is allowed to sunset next year, then you can just buy a collapsible stock and install it.  It will save you a few hundred dollars, unless the ban doesn't sunset in which case it will cost you a few hundred extra dollars to get a preban then.  It depends on how confident you are in Congress allowing the ban to go away.  Most of us are confident, some of us are not.  

Try one of the stocks above if you don't want to spend the money on a preban this late in the game.  They will not be as versatile as a stock that collapses, but they will offer you speed and compactness and not cost a few hundred dollars more than it should for basically the same rifle.

Confidence in Congress? Lol, but yeah, I hear you. Hopefully things stay as is and it does go away. Thanks for your useful info. I guess I'm going to go with an out-of-the-box, post-ban CAR-15, A3 upper with some sort of point sight. The EOTEch holographics look nice. The Sully Stock sounds like the way to go as far as a (hopefully) temporary replacement for a telescopic stock. I'm just trying to get as light and compact as possible due to the terrain that I encounter. Does this sound like a good start for a first-time AR buyer? Any comments or suggestions? Any must-have accessories to start off with? Again, thanks for your help!!!

Well now that you have it figured out, here are some other things to consider.  Stainless steel (grrreat accuracy, poor longetivity) or chrome-lined (ok accuracy, grrreat longetivity).  If you are going with a 16" bbl to begin with, and are mainly using this rifle for shots under 150m, stick with the chrome-lined.  The diff in accuracy will be far outweighed by the durability of the chrome lining.  The next thing off the top of my wooden head is muzzle breaks and flash hiders.  Flash hiders are another "evil" feature like the telestock.  Some opt to put a muzz break on instead.  Well, it may make the rifle look more "GI JOE".  But, they are loud, degrade accuracy, and are unnecessary for taming muzzle rise (for 5.56 anyhow).  There are fake flash hiders, but why?  Its like getting a fixed telestock, unless that is what YOU want on YOUR rifle.  Just get a barrel that is crowned at the end and is at least 16" in length.  You gotta get in touch with Steve at ADCO firearms.  Check out the Industry Community for a link to his site.

Getting back to price. You can buy a kit from sherlock marketing co. for about $425.00.A eagle arms lower for about $100.00-  plus shipping for both and you will have a complete AR15. The lower will have to come through a FFL dealer who( if he is a friend) might not charge you a fee. We are looking at about $550.00. You ain't getting a colt but it is a great rifle. I have one and it shoots and looks just fine. I even have a ciener .22 cal. conversion kit for cheap shooting.

My understanding is that this is NOT correct.  A lower needs only to have been assembled into a complete rifle before the date of the AWB in order to be considered preban, even if it has since been taken apart.  (Proof being a separate issue).

MountainMan- make sure you read all of the different forums.  I made decisions on my magazines, optics, sling and accessories based on what I read here (ex: only get USGI mags).  Lots of good help for cleaning, etc.

Also, if you are upset about the AWB don't forget to write your congressman/senators.

Well, if price is not an option.....

Take a look at the Bushmaster home page.  Or the DPMS page.  They have some nice rifles.  Rock River Arms is another option.  Price wise, they'll be in the range of $600-900, depending on what you want.

If you want something "different", check out Cavalry Arms.  They use DPMS parts, but their lower is plastic, similar to that of a Glock pistol.

All of the ones I have mentioned have great reliability.

Most likely, you will have to go w/ the post ban configuration.  That is no collapsible stock, no flash hider or bayo lug.

This config would probably work:  16" barrel A3 (flatop) with a detchable handle or standard A2. For 150m range, get an OKO sight from Cavalry ARms and their mount (which put it in line w/ the open sights.  People say it works great (I don't have one, yet).

Here is the RRA pic of one:
[img]http://www.rockriverarms.com/images/m4entry.gif[/img]
The bottom one is most likely the config that would interst you.  Notice it has the short butt stock.
Edit- by the way, that lower pic is configured damn close to the LEGP 2001 from AR15.com....

Bushy:
[url]http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/[/url]

[url]http://www.dpmsinc.com[/url]

Well, it is debatable.  Different sources from the ATF have given different answers.  My understanding is that it dfoes not have to be assembled, but all necessary parts to construct the rifle had to have been kept with the rifle before the ban.  The same is true of a preban lower (unless it is specifically marked "AR!%") it can't be shipped or sold separate from parts that make it a preban.  Otherwise it loses its preban status.  Like I said, it is debatable even by those within the ATF.  My point is why take the chance?  You never know and the burden of proof is on the owner of the rifle and not on the courts.  In a little over a year, it will more than likely be a moot point.

Thanks for all the useful info, guys. I knew I had come to the right place. Hopefully in a couple of weeks I'll be posting back on how my new CAR is nailin' tacks on the range. I'm sure I'll have more questions later, but thanks again for the answers that I have now.

Here’s my suggestions:

1.  In theory, you can save money by building an AR.  However, unless you buy a completed upper, you will need some fairly expensive tools.  If you don’t have access to these tools, their cost will more than offset any savings from the kit.  

Further, AR’s are a little involved in their workings.  When building one, it helps to know how things are supposed to work.  If you’re not already familiar with AR functioning, you’re better off getting a complete rifle for your first one and then maybe building your second one.

2.  Make sure you’re getting a 5.56 (military) chamber, not a .223 (commercial) chamber.  Mil-spec ammo doesn’t always work too well in a .223 chamber.

3.  Be sure and get a chrome [b]lined[/b] bore.  Note that the term “chrome-moly” isn’t the same - it refers to the barrel steel, not to whether or not the barrel is lined.

4.  As mentioned above, get a flat top.

5.  If you just want a slightly shorter stock, swap the existing stock out with a military surplus A-1 stock (or get a C-1 stock from Cavalry Arms).

6.  Look at the mid length handguards as sold on Armalite and RRA rifles.  I really like these.  Note, though, that these are essentially non-standard and will limit some of the accessories you can use on them.

7.  Buy [b]only[/b] USGI magazines!!  The exception to this is if you need a reduced capacity for hunting purposes.

8. As mentioned above, avoid muzzlebrakes.  They look cool, but you’ll get real tired of having the muzzle blast redirected back towards you.

9.  Incidentally, just because the barrel is 16 inches long doesn’t necessarily make it light weight – there can be a lot of steel underneath the handguard!!

Just my opinions, of course.  Welcome aboard.