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Posted: 8/3/2018 11:48:38 AM EDT
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Thought I would quickly piggyback off of a post I made here:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/How-is-BCM-quality-today-/118-729433/?page=1 In that thread I expressed that my 14.5 BFH ELW middy upper was 6 MOA with M193. I purchased in in 2016 and sat on it for a build until recently. Well, I took it out to shoot some speed drills last night. As I got set up with some 3x5 cards for targets I thought, what the hell, I have a zero target let’s see if it still underperforms with M193. Well here is your answer, shot at 50 yards: 
That’s roughly 7 MOA, AFTER buckling down and truly focusing on printing a nice group. Couldn’t call any fliers, and that lot/case of ammo had previously won me a second place coin at a CSAT tac rifle course (albeit with a spikes CHF barrel). The target was at 50 yards and shot using a micro T2. Now, I typically refuse to believe that equipment is at fault. In my experience human error is a lot more common than mechanical error where firearms are concerned. Disgusted, I shifted over in the prone to shoot one of my index cards using a few rounds one of my preferred loads, 75 gr Speed gold dots. I fired at a slightly faster tempo and with less focus and shot this: 
I should note that I called the flier, if you even want to call it that. So that will be, what, about 1.75 MOA? I consider that absolutely sufficient for a fighting rifle. Also, I don’t really mind that this rifle hates M193, as I will primarily push Speer and Mk262 clone through. Ball ammo will be reserved for speed drills only. Funny thing is my CHF 14.5 noveske middy, by far a more expensive barrel, is much less picky and prints great with M193. For two barrels that are very similar on paper they are completely different animals. The only load that noveske hates is Mk318 which prints 3 MOA. I have read on here that that BCM barrels can be picky. My sample size of one seems to be in line with that. Although, on the whole, I am not knocking the upper. I am enjoying it very much. I have a case or two of older M855 and will probably see how that shoots through it before too long. I am curious if it would be better or just more of the same. TL;DR my BCM middy is an expensive date. |
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A friend of mine brought me a 16” ELW upper two summers ago saying it shot like shit. I thought he couldn’t shoot, but I mounted a 4-16X Nightforce and went to the range. It shot like shit. Really bad. Something like 7-8MOA with 193 and 855, 4MOA with MK262, but for grins I loaded a mag with 55gr Sierra BlitzKings and shot two ten round 1MOA groups. Barrel was a certifiable piece of shit but did shoot one obscure load very well. I documented everything and posted it on M4C to watch the shitshow. |
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Quoted:
A friend of mine brought me a 16” ELW upper two summers ago saying it shot like shit. I thought he couldn’t shoot, but I mounted a 4-16X Nightforce and went to the range. It shot like shit. Really bad. Something like 7-8MOA with 193 and 855, 4MOA with MK262, but for grins I loaded a mag with 55gr Sierra BlitzKings and shot two ten round 1MOA groups. Barrel was a certifiable piece of shit but did shoot one obscure load very well. I documented everything and posted it on M4C to watch the shitshow. |
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Quoted:
A friend of mine brought me a 16” ELW upper two summers ago saying it shot like shit. I thought he couldn’t shoot, but I mounted a 4-16X Nightforce and went to the range. It shot like shit. Really bad. Something like 7-8MOA with 193 and 855, 4MOA with MK262, but for grins I loaded a mag with 55gr Sierra BlitzKings and shot two ten round 1MOA groups. Barrel was a certifiable piece of shit but did shoot one obscure load very well. I documented everything and posted it on M4C to watch the shitshow. |
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Quoted: I bet TOS had a veritable meltdown. They will hit DU levels of weird to defend BCM there. Not that BCM isn’t good, they just have hiccups like every other manufacturer. Yeah I definitely don’t intend to rag on BCM; I love a lot of their stuff. The KMR and now MCMR fit my support hand like a glove and just feels “right.” This barrel is just picky so far. All in all I would rather it shoot heavier defensive loads really well and M193 like shit than have it be a 3.5 MOA all around shooter. |
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Attached File Not saying this is great or anything but this is through a 14.5 mid non BFH with IMI 193 at 25y and a red dot prone off a backpack. Looks to be 2.5-4 MOA. That sucks yours isnt shooting well. |
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You really shouldn't be testing accuracy with XM193 and an Aimpoint T2. It's a 2 MOA unmagnified optic and 3-4 MOA ammo, of course the barrel isn't shooting bugholes. Let me guess, a mil-spec trigger too? |
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You really shouldn't be testing accuracy with XM193 and an Aimpoint T2. It's a 2 MOA unmagnified optic and 3-4 MOA ammo, of course the barrel isn't shooting bugholes. Let me guess, a mil-spec trigger too? |
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These groups pretty much mirror my experience with with BCM barrels. I have had one that was a 6moa barrel with surplus ammo. I think 2-4moa is pretty much more the norm though for their CL barrels |
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Quoted:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/425939/20171216_130456-629416.JPG Not saying this is great or anything but this is through a 14.5 mid non BFH with IMI 193 at 25y and a red dot prone off a backpack. Looks to be 2.5-4 MOA. That sucks yours isnt shooting well. |
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Good group w 75gr...do you mind sharing your load data? Thx. JP I am not a reloader. It is a speer 75 gr gold dot: Available here It has grouped well in every rifle I have shot it through. ETA you can definitely tell the .223 difference; this load has a very smooth recoil impulse. |
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Interesting the BCM barrel shoots XM193 ( we all know that it is match ammo , Lol ) so poorly... how many rounds down the barrel ?
And what specific XM193 ?... same lot # ? ... just curious. Maybe try some of the AE223 version... barrel harmonics and what.. And , IMHO, I would try various other "M193" ammos... I have had outstanding precision with MEN 56gr FMJ ( considering the cost and M193 aspect ), also I suggest some GECO .223 and 5.56 55gr FMJ, and PMC XTAC 55gr FMJ. I also suggest some Hornady American Gunner 55gr HP, and some Hornady 75gr Steel Match/ Training. Your experience, would put me into ... " I will find cheap ammo this thing will shoot mode " Lol And just to take your firing stance out of the equation ( no offense, more of a variable removal thing ) try shooting off the bench, on stable bags... do you have a scope you could put on ? ( See.. I am already searching for a way to use cheap precise ammo ) |
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Interesting the BCM barrel shoots XM193 ( we all know that it is match ammo , Lol ) so poorly... how many rounds down the barrel ? And what specific XM193 ?... same lot # ? ... just curious. Maybe try some of the AE223 version... barrel harmonics and what.. And , IMHO, I would try various other "M193" ammos... I have had outstanding precision with MEN 56gr FMJ ( considering the cost and M193 aspect ), also I suggest some GECO .223 and 5.56 55gr FMJ, and PMC XTAC 55gr FMJ. I also suggest some Hornady American Gunner 55gr HP, and some Hornady 75gr Steel Match/ Training. Your experience, would put me into ... " I will find cheap ammo this thing will shoot mode " Lol And just to take your firing stance out of the equation ( no offense, more of a variable removal thing ) try shooting off the bench, on stable bags... do you have a scope you could put on ? ( See.. I am already searching for a way to use cheap precise ammo ) I reject the notion that adequately tight groups cannot be made without magnified optics. At two separate carbine courses (not the CSAT course) I won awards for best 100 yard group. I used aimpoint PROs in both classes. In one class it was all aimpoints but in the other there were a couple 4 power ACOGS and even a random sig red dot. With a well contrasted target and holding a very consistent POA you can be very tight with a red dot if you aren’t hampered by poor eyesight or bad institutional red dot myths/techniques. I agree that testing other M193 variants, lot numbers and clones would be instructive. This is a defensive carbine and I shoot and zero it as such. I am not going to strive for a supported bench zero when I don’t shoot from the bench, ever. Mag supported prone, high prone, kneeling, standing, barricades only. So I zero mag supported. ETA: about 400 rounds through this relatively fresh barrel thus far. |
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Quoted: Same lot number as previously stated. It is AE M193. As previously stated in another reply this was not an accuracy test, this was field shooting. However, a magnified optic will not magically shrink a 7 MOA group to 2-3 MOA. I shoot red dots and LPVs (elcan and nightforce previously now a vortex razor) a lot and it’s just not happening unless you believe this rifle will print 3/4 MOA with the Speer gold dots. I doubt it. I absolutely believe it would shrink a little but not enough to change these results in an appreciable way. Those fliers were not of my making. I reject the notion that adequately tight groups cannot be made without magnified optics. At two separate carbine courses (not the CSAT course) I won awards for best 100 yard group. I used aimpoint PROs in both classes. In one class it was all aimpoints but in the other there were a couple 4 power ACOGS and even a random sig red dot. With a well contrasted target and holding a very consistent POA you can be very tight with a red dot if you aren’t hampered by poor eyesight or bad institutional red dot myths/techniques. I agree that testing other M193 variants, lot numbers and clones would be instructive. This is a defensive carbine and I shoot and zero it as such. I am not going to strive for a supported bench zero when I don’t shoot from the bench, ever. Mag supported prone, high prone, kneeling, standing, barricades only. So I zero mag supported. ETA: about 400 rounds through this relatively fresh barrel thus far. I fully agree with your training and application procedures .... as in, do what you want and desire to train for. I am the same way... dependent on the firearm I am using at the range. I do still wonder if the barrel would shoot other 55gr ish FMJ ammo better. I will watch for any further developments , since I am very curious. |
I've got a 14.5" bfh ELW BCM upper that i want to build in to a recce of sorts. In the meantime I just zeroed a holosun red dot on it. Once I verified zero i threw the suppressor on and some CBC made mk262 clone and this is the first 3 rounds verifying POI shift at 50yds
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Quoted: I agree about a scope will not magically tighten groups... I was suggesting a benched accuracy testing to set a precision potential base line.... if XM193 is going to shoot 2-3MOA off the bench, and scoped from your barrel... then IMHO your current results, might not be to terribly out of line. I fully agree with your training and application procedures .... as in, do what you want and desire to train for. I am the same way... dependent on the firearm I am using at the range. I do still wonder if the barrel would shoot other 55gr ish FMJ ammo better. I will watch for any further developments , since I am very curious. |
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Quoted:
I've got a 14.5" bfh ELW BCM upper that i want to build in to a recce of sorts. In the meantime I just zeroed a holosun red dot on it. Once I verified zero i threw the suppressor on and some CBC made mk262 clone and this is the first 3 rounds verifying POI shift at 50yds http://i.imgur.com/ktpqBTh.jpg |
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I went to the range today to zero my new MRO to my work rifle - a Colt LE6933 with GI trigger. I brought one of my personal rifles along since it is configured similar to OP’s - a complete BCM BFH ELW 14.5” with a T2 and Larue MBT.
Ammo used was AE XM193 and Speer 64 grn Gold Dot. All five shot groups were taken from the prone supported at 50 yards at an interval of approximately 3-5 seconds between shots. I believe the results for both rifles are more than acceptable for their intended purposes. OP, if your BCM is printing that bad at 50 yards with 55 grn AE XM193, I’d have some concerns. 
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| Xm193 is the most common 5.56 around and its the cheapest quality brass. If I had a rifle barrel that shot any worse than 3moa, I'd dump it for something else, BCM or not. My spikes optimum profile chf barrel shoots federal xm193 at 1.5-2moa. If you can afford to shoot and train with 262 then more power to ya. |
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You really shouldn't be testing accuracy with XM193 and an Aimpoint T2. It's a 2 MOA unmagnified optic and 3-4 MOA ammo, of course the barrel isn't shooting bugholes. Let me guess, a mil-spec trigger too? |
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Xm193 is the most common 5.56 around and its the cheapest quality brass. If I had a rifle barrel that shot any worse than 3moa, I'd dump it for something else, BCM or not. My spikes optimum profile chf barrel shoots federal xm193 at 1.5-2moa. If you can afford to shoot and train with 262 then more power to ya. https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/-/16-511804/? |
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as an update to this i got a vortex razor 1-6 on my ELW and just went out to zero it quickly so i knew i could count on it.
Had mixed performance with 62gr green tip, 60gr and 75gr hornady tap, and ultimately finished my zero with CBC mk262. Fired a 5 round group at 100yds and thought i had pulled off a sub moa group. Got up to take my targets down and found that only two impacted the 3" sticker. Essentially a 3moa group. Guess I'll have to go back and try again |
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I have a M&P sport 2 and a BCM LW upper with a KMR-A, both are setup almost exactly the same and the sport 2 is most certainly more accurate. I have owned a bunch of BCM uppers and I have never been wowed by the accuracy, but they have always ran very well. Admittedly I have never scoped any of them but my sport 2 groups are consistently half the size of the BCM's groups. I should also mention the BCM rifle has a SSA trigger and the sport 2 has a mil-spec trigger...
This is with wolf gold, I have never tried any really good stuff before. I used to think I needed 1:7 because of all those heavy bullets I would shoot... |
| I’ve been relatively happy about the accuracy form my elw. What do you guys think about using bhf elw for use with the dead air Sandman S. I’m concerned that the barrel is too thin and will heat up too quickly. I would have to cut off the current muzzle device and put the Sandman flash hider on it. |
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16" BCM pencil middy, aimpoint H2, SSA-E, XM193, off the bench @ 50yds https://i.imgur.com/v3fz9GZ.jpg |
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Try wolf gold? Or steel case? Maybe same results but cheaper Also no steel cased as I do not want to shoot bimetal jacketed rounds. |
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Quoted: Negative. Geissele. Further, I am quite capable of shooting tight groups with an aimpoint. It may tighten up a tiny bit if I throw one of my magnified optics on it but it will not magically turn M193 from 7 MOA to 2 MOA through this barrel. |
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Maybe shorten the barrel to a pistol or SBR as shorter barrels are stiffer and move less. The LW profile would make it a very light and handy gun.
I love BCM and have a 12.5 standard and a 16 LW. With M193, Wold Gold and M855 i get about 3-4 MOA. It is good enough for me though. I understand others wanting accuracy. |
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I am a BCM fanboy, but I will never buy and ELW profile. There seems to be a continuous theme of accuracy issues with these barrels, when cold, and they are only going to get worse as the barrel heats up. |
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