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Link Posted: 2/13/2008 9:52:31 PM EST
Hello All!  

Thanks for the great information.  I think you've helped me pick my first lower!  There can be a lot of information to take in, but this visual guide and the follow-up posts have been awesome!

Thanks,
Paul
Link Posted: 2/14/2008 8:29:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/14/2008 8:32:04 PM EST by Wangstang]
For those wanting to read about RRA vs. Superior Arms vs. Anvil Arms...Here is my take on it:

Originally Posted By ssn-vet:
Hi guys,

Been lurking for some time.....first post.

I have a Del-Ton middy kit on order (4 week back order) for my first ever AR....

I've been planning on buying my stripped lower from Anvil as Jon gets good reviews and I drafted up a great piece of art to have laser engraved.

So...

I asked my FFL friend to send his docs to Anvil so I could place the order and this is the reply I got


some of the lowers that I have seen on the Web have a trigger adjustment screw placed in the proper place to enable the owner to tune his standard trigger to a match type adjustable one


Does this make any sense?

I'm not planning on putting a 2 stage trigger in....

it's really just going to be a fun gun.

but I've not come across this "trigger adjustment screw" terminology in any of my research....

Am I missing something, or is my FFL friend ill informed (he never claimed to be any kind of AR expert, he's just trying to stear me the right direction AND....I certainly don't have the experience to say that any one else out there is "smokin' crack")

Thanks in advance....

this is a great forum .... lot's of great info here.


That would be Superior Arms.  I have one.  I have to say that the stock trigger when using the superior arms lower adjustment screw is not quite as good as my RRA National Match trigger that came in my RRA lower but it is a big improvement over the standard trigger that comes pretty close to the NM RRA trigger for a lot less money.  You can simply back the screw out as well so it fits flush if you latter decide to add a match trigger.

I posted pics in the lower thread and also started a thread specificaly for them the other day.

That said, I do have a few very nice Anvil Arms lowers that I also posted pics of.  Anvil Arms is very consitent with their quality.  The Superior Arms lowers seem to be hit or miss.  I looked at four Superior Arms units and picked the best one out of the bunch.  Two I wouldn't touch due to the placement of some of the take down pin holes, one would have been ok but didn't seem as good as the one I went with.

Anvil Arms coats their lowers in Norrels(I can't recall if that's the right spelling right now or not), which is a more durable DuraCoat kind of finish and then they do the laser engraving.  Anvil will coat and laser any lower you send them for a fee, just send Jon an email.

The exterior finish and smoothing machine work on the Superior Arms unit was very consistent with my RRA AR.  The Anvil Arms/Double Star/DPMS/Olympic and others leave a lot of the ridges on the front and rear of the reciever, where Superior Arms and RRA do not.  That's one feature of the Superior Arms I like that Anvil doesn't have.

The roll marks on the Superior Arms units were the one place I have an issue with.  They aren't to deep, infact some are shallow enough that if I were considering painting the entire rifle, I'd be worried the ATF would think I was trying to conceal the serial numbers.  Amazing enough, the RRA AR I have seems to have similar depth roll marks.  The roll marks on the Anvil Arms unit are very clear and have a nice depth to them.

Some people also reported that the Superior Arms lowers had issues with PMAGs not easily going in and out.  Mine has no issues at all with all of the PMAGs I have but it might not hurt to test fit one in the lower you purchase.  None of the Anvil Arms units I purchased had a problems with the PMAGs.

The above said, I think Superior Arms may have changed things up a tad and that the lower I purchased may have been some older stock that DelTon had when I purchased at the local gun show.  Their website shows pics of lowers that look to be more consistent with Anvil Arms.  The roll mark depth on the units pictured on their website look to be the same depth as Anvil's for example.

I posted a lot of Anvil Arms Lower pics as well as Superior Arms lower pics last week...Take a look here:
Anvil Arms Pics
Superior Arms Pics

For what it's worth, I sent two emails to Superior Arms asking how to set the adjustment for the trigger and never heard back.  I got the answer on the message board and posted it in the build it yourself how to build your own lower/upper/etc thread if you need to check.  On the other hand, see this thread for my thoughts on working with Jon:
Anvil Arms vs. Spikes Tactical

Good luck.

Wes
Link Posted: 2/15/2008 6:05:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By xenophobe:

7.62x51 receivers
POF - P-308 Gen 1 (winter trigger guard + ambi bolt release)
DPMS Panther LR-308
Fulton FAR-308 (made by DMPS)
Hesse HAR-10 (bleh... really crappy machining)



No love for Armalite? They produced the 308 version way before anyone else offered them to the public.

Knights should make the list also.

Link Posted: 3/15/2008 10:47:20 PM EST
TFFR
Link Posted: 3/16/2008 10:16:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/16/2008 2:53:42 PM EST by southerngator]
I spoke with Ed from Gunsmoke Enterprises yesterday at a local show here in Florida. Currently, their lowers are being manufactured by LAR.

I just bought my first lower yesterday from Gunsmoke and am looking forward to building it up, so I figured I would throw in my two cents. Picked it up for $100 out the door.

Thanks for the great thread!
Link Posted: 3/16/2008 1:35:57 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/16/2008 2:52:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/16/2008 2:54:57 PM EST by southerngator]
My apologies Jon, It was not my intention to offend. I removed my comment from my previous thread. I saw that someone had asked in an earlier post about Anvil and that was the information I had been supplied with. Obviously, I was mis-informed and for that I apologize, my intention was strictly to try to add information in the thread.
Link Posted: 3/17/2008 1:50:16 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/19/2008 9:03:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/19/2008 9:18:10 PM EST by truemajik]
For all those of you out there who are wondering here are the facts.  There are only a few actual companies that completely mill there own stuff and all the rest are subcontracted- period.  I know because I am one of the actual machinists that mill the receivers and I Own the company.    I have attached a list of who mills for who so you guys dont get confused.  

LMT- mills for
Lauer, DS arms, PWA, Eagle, Armalite, Knights Armament, And Barrett

CMT- mills for
Stag, Rock River Arms, High standard, Noveski, Century, Global tactical, CLE, S & W, MGI, Wilson Tactical, Grenadier, Precision, Colt

LAR- mills for
Bushmaster, Ameetec, DPMS, CMMG, Double star, Fulton Armory, Spikes tactical

JVP- mills for
Double star, LRB

Mega Machine- mills for
GSE, Dalphon, POF, Alexander Arms

Olympic- mills for
SGW, Tromix, Palmetto, Dalphon, Frankford, Century

Sun devil was designed by TKS engeneering

Superior arms mills for superior.

I can't disclose who I am because it would violate the advertising rules but you will see my new ads here soon.  
Contact me private message if you have any questions about who mills for who.  I can prove it all.

I hope I dont upset anyone but these are the facts
Link Posted: 3/19/2008 9:11:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/19/2008 9:16:04 PM EST by truemajik]
Link Posted: 3/20/2008 11:30:53 PM EST
Thanks for the info.
Link Posted: 3/21/2008 3:38:33 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/22/2008 5:01:17 PM EST
tag
Link Posted: 3/27/2008 5:42:44 AM EST
Is there any info on what companies lowers colors match each other????
Link Posted: 4/1/2008 5:58:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By 3GUNPLAY:
What about Sabre Defense, do they machine their own?


Sabre machines their own uppers and lowers and many other parts.  We also produce lowers for several other companies, but I cannot mention their names due to non-disclosure agreements.

Michael Curlett
Director of Commercial Operations
Sabre Defence Industries
Link Posted: 4/5/2008 9:39:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/5/2008 9:40:36 PM EST by apcapt]

Originally Posted By Jon-Anvil_Arms:

Originally Posted By southerngator:
My apologies Jon, It was not my intention to offend. I removed my comment from my previous thread. I saw that someone had asked in an earlier post about Anvil and that was the information I had been supplied with. Obviously, I was mis-informed and for that I apologize, my intention was strictly to try to add information in the thread.


I'm not offended (or upset) at all and there is no need to apologize, but I thank you for doing so!

My post was meant simply to keep the record straight and consistent. As a company our policy is to be honest and straightforward at all times.

Stop by at one of the shows we do and say hi! There is a link to our schedule in my signature line.

Jon Kruger
President, Anvil Arms LLC
Lakeland, FL.

863-398-4460

Proud ARFCOM Industry Partner

Lifetime NRA Member

Email: [email protected]

www.AnvilArms.com



You should be aware that today I saw Gunsmoke Enterprises at the Ft. Lauderdale show. I had never seen their product so I checked them out. I eventually asked the salesperson (whom another had identified as the person who makes the lowers and uppers.. As..ED..) who made their lowers? He (Ed) stated that they were LAR lowers. I find that interesting due to the fact that on their website they clearly state that lowers and uppers are made on the same CNC machine in their factory. Either way the impression I was left with was that they were cheaply made and you get what you pay for. Along with that the table was full of knock off copies of Eotech's, weapon lights and airsoft accessories. While their product may send a round down range, I know my LMT will hit the exact spot I target repeatedly.
Link Posted: 4/7/2008 8:46:11 AM EST
Link Posted: 4/20/2008 9:40:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/20/2008 9:51:31 AM EST by MSPRet]
Thanks for all the work on this great thread. I am new to AR's and am ordering a Stag stripped lower and plan to complete it with a DPMS parts kit. I also am thinking of getting an additional stripped lower by Anvil Arms after reading some good things about their lowers. Your info has been very helpful....<><....:)
Link Posted: 4/20/2008 9:41:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/20/2008 9:52:20 AM EST by MSPRet]
sorry, double post....<><....:)
Link Posted: 4/30/2008 1:27:13 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/16/2008 12:57:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/17/2008 4:33:39 PM EST by gofer]
Here's some pics of the SOCOM Diamond (custom cut billet receiver) / first run / silver
The two holes in the trigger guard are for access to a screw on both sides of the trigger for a built in trigger pull adjustment.  There is also a screw on the lower part of the receiver between the pistol grip and the stock that takes up any slack between the upper and lower receiver.  Anymore information about them would be appreciated.  They did eventually make an upper to match the lower.  click on the photobucket link to see 21 more pics
s301.photobucket.com/albums/nn73/jgufer
If you know where I can find a SOCOM Diamond upper receiver please contact me.

I found the web description but this one doesn't have any pictures


Link Posted: 5/22/2008 2:56:08 PM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By truemajik:
For all those of you out there who are wondering here are the facts.  There are only a few actual companies that completely mill there own stuff and all the rest are subcontracted- period.  I know because I am one of the actual machinists that mill the receivers and I Own the company.    I have attached a list of who mills for who so you guys dont get confused.  

LMT- mills for
Lauer, DS arms, PWA, Eagle, Armalite, Knights Armament, And Barrett

CMT- mills for
Stag, Rock River Arms, High standard, Noveski, Century, Global tactical, CLE, S & W, MGI, Wilson Tactical, Grenadier, Precision, Colt

LAR- mills for
Bushmaster, Ameetec, DPMS, CMMG, Double star, Fulton Armory, Spikes tactical

JVP- mills for
Double star, LRB

Mega Machine- mills for
GSE, Dalphon, POF, Alexander Arms

Olympic- mills for
SGW, Tromix, Palmetto, Dalphon, Frankford, Century

Sun devil was designed by TKS engeneering

Superior arms mills for superior.

I can't disclose who I am because it would violate the advertising rules but you will see my new ads here soon.  
Contact me private message if you have any questions about who mills for who.  I can prove it all.

hope




LAR had been making GSE's Lowers for the past year and a half, not Mega.
Link Posted: 5/26/2008 1:40:26 PM EST
Colt doesn't machine their own lowers in-house?  That is quite interesting.
In both volumes of THE BLACK RIFLE, there is plenty of documentation and clear photos of receivers and barrels being machined at the Colt factory. The photos of the lower receivers are quite telling and done 24 at a time using million dollar  CNC equipment. The  raw forged blanks have been supplied by various manufactures over time but  Colt has always machined upper and lower receivers in one of their various factories. Same with the barrels.  Chrome plating the bore of a 22 cal. and achieving uniform thickness has never been easy. Just ask the boys at FNUSA what happened in 1986.  

As for other pieces made at Colt....I thought it was well known that Colt has always machined these 10 critical parts of the rifle.
upper
lower
barrel
bolt
bolt carrier
hammer
trigger
safety/selector switch
disconnecter
GI auto sear for M16's

Most other parts were designed and made in-house for periods,  approved, and later farmed out,  BUT... those 10 parts most important in the finished product are made in-house by Colt.

After 25 years of building, using, and selling AR's and M16's from almost every manufacture, I've seen variations in quality from all. No manufacturer including Colt (especially those rifles released around the 1994 AWB...GOOD GRIEF!! ) is immune.
With the better companies, though, it is very rare.
Link Posted: 6/14/2008 4:51:15 PM EST
people who mill for other companies don't advertise that they make parts for other companies because:

1) they made a product that cost more then their current (selling) product thus having a better product that they are producing for said company.

2) they are making a cheaper product then their current (selling) product thus having a worse product that they are producing for said company.


Now either way you look at it.  Any millers do not want to say they make certain parts because its going to damage their reputation one way or not.


So given this.  I would say just pick a company you like, and buy with confidence.  
Link Posted: 8/3/2008 5:43:35 AM EST
And who make Armalite?
Link Posted: 8/3/2008 12:40:52 PM EST
Somebody put Noveske on the LAR List. Noveske gets lowers from LAR and CMT/STAG.
Link Posted: 8/15/2008 1:38:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/1/2009 10:11:25 PM EST by ramcdaniel1]
High or Low Shelf AR Receivers. Who Makes What?

This is a list of companies showing who makes high shelf and who makes low shelf AR-15 lower receivers. This is in reference to RDIAS compatibility. RDIAS is Registered Drop In Auto Sear. A RDIAS can be found for much less than a registered M-16 or other AR-15 compatible registered select fire lower receiver. Here is a link that goes in to depth on the RDIAS- www.quarterbore.com/nfa/dias.html

Green = Low shelf: DIAS compatible, shelf behind safety on inside of the receiver is 16mm deep from top of receiver  

Red = High Shelf: Not DIAS compatible, shelf behind safety on inside of receiver is 14mm deep from top of receiver



Aero Precision - high shelf /low shelf

Ameetec - low shelf

Anvil Arms - low shelf

Armalite - high shelf

Bushmaster - low shelf

Charles Daly - low shelf

CMMG - low shelf

CMT - high shelf

Colt - high shelf also receiver block

Double Star - low shelf

DPMS - low shelf

DSA - high shelf

DTI (Del-Ton) - low shelf

Essential Arms - high shelf /low shelf

Fulton Armory - low shelf

LAR - low shelf

LMT - high shelf

LRB/JV Precision -  low shelf

Mega - low shelf

Olympic Arms - high shelf

Rock River Arms - high shelf

Smith & Wesson - high shelf

Spike's Tactical - Bullet Selector Markings = high shelf –– Fire/Safe Selector Markings = low shelf

Stag - high shelf

Sun Devil - low shelf

Superior Arms - low shelf



This is the information I have so far. Please feel free to voice any corrections and continue to add to this list (please use the email function as I have no way of knowing if you posted or PM'd me since the board seems to have no notification.)

Maybe this should have it's own tack?


Link Posted: 8/15/2008 9:30:57 PM EST
WOW Fantastic post... Thanks!
Regardless of who is milling what, why not carefully just inspect the lower or weapon you are going to buy at your local FFL dealer... so you can get something of the quality/features/marks you want.

If you have been exposed to most any kind of manufacturing business it is easy to understand why any company wont say who mills their receivers... It is not public info!
Likewise as a machining company/supplier a NDA precludes you from saying who you make parts for... It is the world we live in... and while I love the post and it brings to light something I will look at more closely when I pick up my next AR. I am not overly concerned who milled it or who's logo is on it. Does it look the way I want more importantly does it function properly!!!
Excellent work on the post, everyone!
Link Posted: 8/16/2008 11:27:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/16/2008 11:29:36 PM EST by Ronin_556]
I just bought a SNS Idustries lower and I am very impressed. I have owned LMT, Bushmaster, Colt, Noveske and now SNS. Noveske and SNS in my opinion are the cleanist of all lowers mentioned in my post. I cannot find any tool marks on the SNS lower. Does anyone know who makes SNS Industries lowers? I think it may be CMT but I am not sure.
Link Posted: 9/20/2008 8:37:38 PM EST
So who makes the best lower?  
Link Posted: 9/22/2008 8:27:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By Armin_Tanzarian:
So who makes the best lower?  


Les Baer!!!
Link Posted: 9/25/2008 9:26:09 PM EST
I have some new noveske lowers, and they dont look like those LAR lowers.ill take pics if you want.
Link Posted: 9/28/2008 8:46:01 PM EST
Got a Mega upper and lower and I must say the fit is excellant.  Finish is superb.

It all went together great. Upper and lower are nice and snug.

Very pleased with Mega
Link Posted: 10/9/2008 12:38:03 PM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By Armin_Tanzarian:
So who makes the best lower?  hese
I'd like to buy about 10 or more as an investment.

Mega Machine for 110.00
or
Doublestate for 100.00
Link Posted: 10/15/2008 12:54:46 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/22/2008 8:34:09 PM EST
that is some good info thanks
Link Posted: 10/25/2008 9:49:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2008 12:56:56 AM EST by VelveteenMole]
Somebody explain this please:

It says that MMS makes POF forged lowers, but all three gen's of lowers and complete rifles listed in this thread and on POF's website are listed as billet.  What POF forged lowers exist, are they an old item?

Also, what are the advantages and disadvantages of billet vs forged?

Does a billet lower require a specific quality of anodizing to be as good as it can be, and who meets that level?


Thanks in advance!



Link Posted: 11/4/2008 3:18:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/4/2008 3:20:11 PM EST by thumper440]
I am fairly new to the AR world. I would like to know where  the best place to get a fair quality Lower at the lowest price to start some builds with.  I plan to build a 6.5 grendel to hunt deer and yotes with and maybe a 204. Any info would be great.
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 3:30:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/7/2008 8:55:50 PM EST by VelveteenMole]
Originally Posted By thumper440:
I am fairly new to the AR world. I would like to know where  the best place to get a fair quality Lower at the lowest price to start some builds with.  I plan to build a 6.5 grendel to hunt deer and yotes with and maybe a 204. Any info would be great.


I'm waiting on a Spike's Tactical, and some Anvil Arms stripped lowers.  

The Spike's isn't gonna be super cheap with shipping, plus I paid to get the Safe/Fire marks color-filled, but all together plus $10 transfer fee, makes $150 I think, but that's stripped. ETA: I just checked the website and they've gone from $115 to $179!!  Sooo..... yeah.  Glad I ordered when I did.

I've heard good things about Anvil Arms and they're definitely priced well and a great value if the quality is on par with the reputation.  With transfer that should be about $123 transferred.  I'll let you know how they look when I get them.  

I think, offhand, that Anvil will be a great deal for a top quality complete lower.  They are supposed to have some really good quality control and sourcing.  Plus they offer a lifetime warranty on all their stuff.  From reading the industry board, I'd say Jon (the owner) stands behind it, too.
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 8:04:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By ramcdaniel1:
High or Low Shelf AR Receivers. Who Makes What?




My LMT has a high shelf.
Link Posted: 11/8/2008 1:33:39 PM EST

I'm waiting on a Spike's Tactical, and some Anvil Arms stripped lowers.  

The Spike's isn't gonna be super cheap with shipETA: I just checked the website and they've gone from $115 to $179!!  Sooo..... yeah.  Glad I ordered when I did.


That absolutely guarantee's I will NEVER buy another thing from those price gouging scumbags.

Jacking a price like that places them on the same scale as the Anti-Gunners to me.

Link Posted: 11/9/2008 5:40:37 PM EST
So when it say JVP mills for LRB and Doublestar does that mean that they are the same receiver with the only difference being the finish each company applies?
Link Posted: 11/9/2008 6:18:57 PM EST
Any info on Aero Precision lowers?
Link Posted: 11/11/2008 12:12:34 PM EST
What are the advatages, if any, of a billet lower vs. a forged lower?
Link Posted: 11/12/2008 12:16:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By sleepdr:
Originally Posted By ramcdaniel1:
High or Low Shelf AR Receivers. Who Makes What?




My LMT has a high shelf.


Thank you sir. Noted it above on the list.
Link Posted: 11/17/2008 6:06:50 PM EST
tag.
Link Posted: 11/17/2008 6:51:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/17/2008 7:17:28 PM EST by Winn]
Originally Posted By perfectscore:

What are the advatages, if any, of a billet lower vs. a forged lower?


My understanding is that billet receivers are generally more "true"; i.e. more square, level, plumb, whatever ... more precisely made, which is important when accuracy is paramount.

OTO, forged stuff is generally considered to be somewhat stronger.

Therefore, IMHO a billet upper may be desirable if someone is interested in building a high performance / "exceptional precision" rig, but as far as lowers go ... I don't really see the benefit vs. the extra cost that comes with the higher price tag of billet.
Link Posted: 11/25/2008 9:08:38 PM EST
I have several Double Stars, BM, and RRA lowers.  All are very nice.  Especially for fit and finish the RRAs are prob. my favorite.  But overall my Favorite is the Sun Devils.  Man they are hot.  To me the billets are worth the money for little things like the the big magwell.  My $.02
Link Posted: 12/1/2008 10:25:04 PM EST
Why don't you see much written about Essential Arms lowers and uppers?
Link Posted: 12/1/2008 10:30:22 PM EST
LRB is a low shelf
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