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6.8SPC or 6.5G? Which one should I buy? (Page 3 of 14)
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Thank you, MudBug, very astute. And I think my last two posts are perfectly germane to the topic at hand, in the sense that the difficulty in nailing down the performance specifications of the various 6.8 SPC incarnations renders difficult a comparison and thus the decision as to which cartridge one might like to buy.
John | 6.5 Grendel: The Tier One AR Cartridge. | www.65grendel.com |
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Originally Posted By Grendelizor:
Originally Posted By QuicksilverJPR:You could use the 6.5Grendel 90gr Speer TNT and the 6.8 SPC 85gr SSA TSX load as a comparison (roughly). Just using muzzle velocity, the SPC load (SPCII chamber, 1:10" twist) achieves 2850fps out of a 10" barrel, whilst the Grendel achieves a velocity of 2880fps with the 90gr Speer TNT out of a 24" barrel. The 14" barrel length difference between the two is kind of crazy, but it illustrates the point of the difference between the two loads vs. weapon barrel lengths...
QSJPR, you've got a very good argument, and it beats me at my own game using my own criteria. Having said that, you're right, the difference in the numbers is kind of "crazy," and still leaves me completely skeptical. That's another reason we're at an impasse. Without the testing equipment myself, I can't verify why a neophyte ammo maker like Hornady, for example, is unable to get anywhere near the results of Silver State's astute application of physics. John | 6.5 Grendel: The Tier One AR Cartridge. | www.65grendel.com I would have to guess that Hornady is strictly making ammunition that can be used in the standard SPC chamber and SPC/1:10 guns. I wish they would bust out a "Light Magnum" type load for the 6.8 SPC in all honesty, and perhaps pump out some Grendel ammo as well. |
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Originally Posted By 3crowns:
Originally Posted By Powder_Burns:
If I am target shooting out of an AR-15 500-1000yd out, I'd opt for a 6.5 Grendel. The long range performance really makes it an attractive cartridge and all the B.C. S.D. etc. stuff reinforces its use in that application [/span] Don't you need a 24" barrel to get out to 1k with the Grendel? Kind of unweidly for close-in, isn't it? The 20" will do just fine. With the right load you may still be super sonic out to 1200 yds. This is third hand information but I know I've read this somewhere. |
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Originally Posted By tolson68:
Originally Posted By 3crowns:
Originally Posted By Powder_Burns:
If I am target shooting out of an AR-15 500-1000yd out, I'd opt for a 6.5 Grendel. The long range performance really makes it an attractive cartridge and all the B.C. S.D. etc. stuff reinforces its use in that application [/span] Don't you need a 24" barrel to get out to 1k with the Grendel? Kind of unweidly for close-in, isn't it? The 20" will do just fine. With the right load you may still be super sonic out to 1200 yds. This is third hand information but I know I've read this somewhere. I know I can do it with my 22", haven't chrono'd my 18" or my 12" yet. ETA: And I would guess that any rifle that stays supersonic out to 1k yards would be a bit unwieldy for close in. |
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Originally Posted By Grendelizor: John,..Without the testing equipment myself, I can't verify why a neophyte ammo maker like Hornady, for example, is unable to get anywhere near the results of Silver State's astute application of physics. . Who says they can't? Just because they have not released such a round to the public does not mean they cannot build such a load. For a very long time Hornady would NOT sell it's 5.56 version of the 75gr TAP to the public, and only to police departments after they signed a release indicating it would only be shot from rifles with 5.56 chambers. You could buy all the .223 75gr TAP you wanted, but the 5.56 was reserved. The reasons? There are ARs with both .223 and 5.56 chambers out there and they didn't want to take on the liability for idiots that don't know what they have or don't care - they just want to shoot the 'hot stuff'. The problem is just as bad, if not worse, with the 6.8. Why take on the liablity when most consumers are currently satisfied with the basic SAAMI loads? |
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6.8 > 6.5
6.8 > 6.5
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A couple comments
Working inside the industry the 6.8 SPC now has the same problem as 8mm Mauser.......different guns in the market capable of handling different pressures. Due to this major ammo manufacturers will only load for the weakest link. Black Hills stated to me a week or so ago that the 6.8 SPC is no longer a viable cartridge to load commercially. Other ammo manufacturers are saying the same thing. Why? To load it safely commercially it has to be loaded at velocity levels which will get them crucified on the intraweb. Karl Lewis of LMT agreed with Black Hills on this. Another tier one American ammo manufacturer has just decided to load 6.5mm Grendel here at the NRA Show. They will announce it when they have ammo to ship, probably in a few months. In the current market neither are big sellers commercially. They are a drop in the bucket compared to 5.56. Short range performance of the 6.5mm Grendel is often dramatically underrated. Medium range performance of the 6.8 SPC is often underrated. From 0-200 yards the cartridges are more alike then most on either side would like to admit. While some have complained about Alexander Arms keeping control of the 6.5mm Grendel rather than letting people 'evolve' it like the 6.8 SPC, that is what ammo manufacturers are finding appealing about it and unappealing about the 6.8 SPC. |
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Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
Another tier one American ammo manufacturer has just decided to load 6.5mm Grendel here at the NRA Show. They will announce it when they have ammo to ship, probably in a few months. We heard rumors about this and the same company planning on selling brass over at the Grendel forum a couple months ago, the Manufacturer has been a very well kept secret. My bet is on Hornady, they seem more willing to dip into the offbeat cartridge game lately than the other big names. |
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Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
A couple comments The 6.5mm Grendel is in use by certain US Military units, and not for competition shooting. Period. Working inside the industry the 6.8 SPC now has the same problem as 8mm Mauser.......different guns in the market capable of handling different pressures. Due to this major ammo manufacturers will only load for the weakest link. Black Hills stated to me a week or so ago that the 6.8 SPC is no longer a viable cartridge to load commercially. Other ammo manufacturers are saying the same thing. Why? To load it safely commercially it has to be loaded at velocity levels which will get them crucified on the intraweb. Karl Lewis of LMT agreed with Black Hills on this. Another tier one American ammo manufacturer has just decided to load 6.5mm Grendel here at the NRA Show. They will announce it when they have ammo to ship, probably in a few months. In the current market neither are big sellers commercially. They are a drop in the bucket compared to 5.56. Short range performance of the 6.5mm Grendel is often dramatically underrated. Medium range performance of the 6.8 SPC is often underrated. From 0-200 yards the cartridges are more alike then most on either side would like to admit. While some have complained about Alexander Arms keeping control of the 6.5mm Grendel rather than letting people 'evolve' it like the 6.8 SPC, that is what ammo manufacturers are finding appealing about it and unappealing about the 6.8 SPC. Dave, well stated as usual. I would like to make a comment about the quandary of the major ammo manufactures making the 6.8 SPC for use in all rifles. The way I see it, it is not like the 8mm Mauser at all, but just like the 45 Colt. Back in the day, the 45 Colt was the big boy on the block when using black powder. This changed when smokeless powder came along until Bill Ruger brought out his Blackhawk and Redhawk. Now we had a platform that would allow us to take advantage of the 45 Colt cartridge. Heck, even Freedom Arms, the premier top of the top tier revolver manufacturers makes their pistol with the ability to handle the very stoutest loadings in the 45 Colt. This was a challenge for the ammo manufacturers until the little light bulb went off.........change the label on their boxes. If they produced a 'heavy' 45 Colt load, make sure that the people buying it would know that it was for use in modern revolvers like the Rugers and Freedom Arms. Corbon marks their boxes with "45 Colt Magnum +P" just to make sure that no one with their little Colt SAA (or replica of) use these by mistake. If the major ammo manufacturers would just change their labels to reflect their products to be used only in certain rifles, then they would be covered. I know that every time I say to those over at a certain other forum we should change the name to reflect the higher velocity load, I get yelled at, but maybe it is time to do just that. We have been trying for a couple years to tell the world that this 6.8 really is something 'special' and the original specs that Remington sent to SAAMI were not what the original developers called for. Now several manufactures of 6.8 AR's have seen the light and have now changed their barrel profiles to reflect those tests done by those dedicated individuals at the other forum (and from Art at SSA and Tim at the old Cardinal Arms). I would venture so far as to if and when the military specs out a rifle for the 6.8 SPC, their requirements will be that of the Spec II chamber and 1/11-12 twist. Now to Mr. Lewis at LMT. I have one of the first production LMT MRP CQB Piston rifles that came from their factory and it is truly a great rifle. They use the 556 NATO chamber and not the .223 Rem, right??? They also use the 1/7 twist for use with all loads up to and including 77gr rounds, right??? This means that not only can they shoot the standard 223 Rem loads, but also any and all 556 NATO!!! Why then wouldn't they want to produce their 6.8 SPC barrels to the standards which would allow for the use of any and all manufactured ammo now in use and possibly in the future??? It only makes sense to do so. It is really a win-win scenario for all included. All Mr. Lewis has to do is order his next shipment of barrels from his provider with the following specs........Spec II chamber (which is just a SAAMI chamber with an added 0.100 Freebore) and a twist rate of 1/11.5 which is truly perfect for all loadings that have been developed. Even the super fast loadings from SSA (Silver State Armory) could be safely shot from his rifles. Customers could go into any shop in the country and use any and all loads for the 6.8 SPC, even those that might come out in the future. If he is concerned with the barrels already out there in the public's hands, he could just offer to have them send the barrels back to the company for a simple chamber ream out to Spec II. That would mean that they could safely shoot all the ammo out there now. They just might not get every fps that the change in twist will offer, but their rifles would be completely safe!!! I think I will just sit down today and write Mr. Lewis a letter and send it to him via snail mail. I would hope everyone else here that owns one of his MRP rifles would do the same. It just makes sense and also puts them back to the top of the top tier 6.8 SPC rifle companies. All he has to do is look and see that Stag, Rock River Arms and Noveske have already changed their barrel specs to the better ones developed. It allows those other companies to safely shoot any and all loadings from all ammo manufacturers (presently loading the 6.8 SPC and those in the future) without worry about ANY safety concerns. Cohibra45 (Kelly) |
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So some enterprising individuals and companies have improved the 6.8 and that is a problem? Things change. It might be hard for some people to understand, but improvements are good.
By the way, the Grendel is a fine caliber, so buy one if you want it. If another ammo maker is coming on board with the 6.5, that’s good news. This whole 6.8 chamber paranoia is blown way out of proportion. The gun manufacturers have figured it out and have largely migrated to improved specifications like the SPC II and the DMR chambers. You can buy a reamer or go to a gunsmith to improve your chamber to SPC II inexpensively if you have the obsolete SAAMI chamber. Let’s keep things simple for those considering a 6.8: - SAAMI chamber and 1:9.5 twist. Model 1 Sales current and some older obsolete rifles. Operates at higher pressures due to tight chamber and overly fast twist. However they will handle current commercial loads, but are maxed out pressure wise which can lead to premature wear and tear. Inexpensive conversion to SPC II chamber will help and is recommended. There aren’t that many out there in this configuration compared to other configurations. - SAAMI chamber and 1:10 twist. Shoot all the commercial ammo you want including SSA’s ammo, except the SSA Tactical loads. - SPC II and 1:10 twist. Operates at lower pressures than SAAMI chamber and can handle the commercial loads and is the minimum for the SSA Tactical loads. - SPC II, or DMR chamber and 1:11 to 1:12 twist. These are the latest generation of 6.8 barrels and likely reaching the potential of the cartridge. They operate at much lower pressures allowing higher velocities at a given pressure. Most of the industry is migrating to these specifications. These handle hotter loads easily. Keep in mind that off the shelf commercially loaded 6.8 ammo you find in stores, or online, works just fine in all the above combinations. Someone please let Black Hills and LMT know this. Now the original SAAMI chamber and the ridiculous 9.5 twist barrels are the problem children, but they still handle the commercially available ammo, only at higher pressures. The SSA Tactical loads need SPC II and 1:10 or slower twists. There are many 6.8 rifles out there that can handle the tactical loads. There you go. If you want a 6.8 and commercial ammo is your choice, feel free to buy any new 6.8 and enjoy yourself. Avoid Model 1 Sales and anyone else with 9.5 twist and the original SAAMI chamber because much better choices abound. If you want to be in a good position for higher performance 6.8 ammo coming down the road or you’re into hand loading for performance, then look for the SPC II or DMR chamber and the slower twists like 1:11 or 1:12. See how easy it is to buy a 6.8 and sort through the different combinations? Internet panic not needed. |
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Originally Posted By rrjacobo95269:
Try Titan Armory. They make a 1:11.25 With a DMR-C Chamber. It will handle anything SSA has in an 6.8 . R.Jacobo Wait... so now there is SAAMI, SPC-II, DMR, AND DMR-C? |
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Originally Posted By MudBug:
Originally Posted By rrjacobo95269:
Try Titan Armory. They make a 1:11.25 With a DMR-C Chamber. It will handle anything SSA has in an 6.8 . R.Jacobo Wait... so now there is SAAMI, SPC-II, DMR, AND DMR-C? That one's new to me. I agree, all these chamber options are nothing short of confusing to some people. At least the 5.56 NATO/223 kept it around 3 main options ( 5.56 , 223 Rem, 223 Wylde) for the most part in todays AR game . However, the "DMR" and whatever this "C" business is, is not really an industry leader, the large producers use either SAAMI or SPC II , the DMR chamber is used by 2 smaller custom builders. The settlement is really on SAAMI or SPC II. |
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Originally Posted By MudBug:
Originally Posted By rrjacobo95269:
Try Titan Armory. They make a 1:11.25 With a DMR-C Chamber. It will handle anything SSA has in an 6.8 . R.Jacobo Wait... so now there is SAAMI, SPC-II, DMR, AND DMR-C? I am not sure what the difference is, or if it's just a rename of the DMR chamber... |
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Originally Posted By Cold:
Originally Posted By MudBug:
Originally Posted By rrjacobo95269:
Try Titan Armory. They make a 1:11.25 With a DMR-C Chamber. It will handle anything SSA has in an 6.8 . R.Jacobo Wait... so now there is SAAMI, SPC-II, DMR, AND DMR-C? That one's new to me. I agree, all these chamber options are nothing short of confusing to some people. At least the 5.56 NATO/223 kept it around 3 main options ( 5.56 , 223 Rem, 223 Wylde) for the most part in todays AR game . However, the "DMR" and whatever this "C" business is, is not really an industry leader, the large producers use either SAAMI or SPC II with Noveske using a DMR along with 2 smaller custom builders. The settlement is really on SAAMI or SPC II. DMR-C is the chrome lined DMR chamber offered by AR15Performance. It is basically the DMR chamber. Again, no need for a nervous disorder. |
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Originally Posted By STLTXN:
Originally Posted By Cold:
Originally Posted By MudBug:
Originally Posted By rrjacobo95269:
Try Titan Armory. They make a 1:11.25 With a DMR-C Chamber. It will handle anything SSA has in an 6.8 . R.Jacobo Wait... so now there is SAAMI, SPC-II, DMR, AND DMR-C? That one's new to me. I agree, all these chamber options are nothing short of confusing to some people. At least the 5.56 NATO/223 kept it around 3 main options ( 5.56 , 223 Rem, 223 Wylde) for the most part in todays AR game . However, the "DMR" and whatever this "C" business is, is not really an industry leader, the large producers use either SAAMI or SPC II with Noveske using a DMR along with 2 smaller custom builders. The settlement is really on SAAMI or SPC II. DMR-C is the chrome lined DMR chamber offered by AR15Performance. It is basically the DMR chamber. Again, no need for a nervous disorder. Just did some checking, and that appears to be exactly what it is. Chrome lined (combat) barrels vs. stainless DMR barrels... |
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Correct the DMR-C was designed to take into account chrome would be applied.
The DMR and DMR-C are similar to the 223 Wylde, they have relaxed bodies but a bullet diameter leade(. 277 in this case) to aid in accuracy, they shoot every factory 6.8 ammo made just like the other 6.8s. Cold said the Noveske was a DMR type but it is not, it has a .100 leade just like the SPCII according to Todd who works for Noveske. Premimum factory 6.8 ammo will be available soon for DMR chambered rifles starting with a 100gr Nosler Accubond, it will hit apx 2940fps from the 16" DMR chambered barrels. |
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Originally Posted By Tim_W:Premimum factory 6.8 ammo will be available soon for DMR chambered rifles starting with a 100gr Nosler Accubond, it will hit apx 2940fps from the 16" DMR chambered barrels.
An astounding feat of ballistics engineering, considering that from a 24" barrel Hornady's .243 Winchester loaded with a 100gr BTSP gets 2960 fps and their Light Magnum loading with the same bullet from a 24" gets 3100 fps. If we account for the difference in barrel lengths between the 16" 6.8 DMR and the 24" .243 Winchester Hornady Light Magnum, I'd guess that from a 16" the .243 Win. HLM would get roughly 2900 fps, bested by the 6.8 SPC by 40 fps. Truly extraordinary results, Tim. John | 6.5 Grendel: The Tier One AR Cartridge. | www.65grendel.com |
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Thanks John,
Hate to tell you that is a reduced load by 1 whole gr, the top load hit 3033fps with no signs of pressure apx 58k. That is the good thing about SSA having special powders made for specific weight bullets. He nailed this 100gr load and the powder for the 85TSX is on the way. BTW -John you and Kelly could be right, it may be time for a name change. |
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Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
A couple comments Working inside the industry the 6.8 SPC now has the same problem as 8mm Mauser.......different guns in the market capable of handling different pressures. Due to this major ammo manufacturers will only load for the weakest link. Black Hills stated to me a week or so ago that the 6.8 SPC is no longer a viable cartridge to load commercially. Other ammo manufacturers are saying the same thing. Why? To load it safely commercially it has to be loaded at velocity levels which will get them crucified on the intraweb. Karl Lewis of LMT agreed with Black Hills on this. Another tier one American ammo manufacturer has just decided to load 6.5mm Grendel here at the NRA Show. They will announce it when they have ammo to ship, probably in a few months. In the current market neither are big sellers commercially. They are a drop in the bucket compared to 5.56. Short range performance of the 6.5mm Grendel is often dramatically underrated. Medium range performance of the 6.8 SPC is often underrated. From 0-200 yards the cartridges are more alike then most on either side would like to admit. While some have complained about Alexander Arms keeping control of the 6.5mm Grendel rather than letting people 'evolve' it like the 6.8 SPC, that is what ammo manufacturers are finding appealing about it and unappealing about the 6.8 SPC. It seems to me performance sells, that is what the Grendel clan has been touting all along. Just the word "magnum" sells, ammo manufactures inflate their BCs to make sales. 200fps is the difference between most standard cartridges and magnums. 308 or 30-06 VS 300 win mag. etc. A Grendel has a little more vel than a standard SAAMI 6.8 SPC but some of the better 6.8s can produce 200fps+ more than a Grendel with the same length barrel and weight bullet. Most ammo manufacturers must keep pressures safe in the worst firearm unless they develop a +p load or change the name. Some people want that extra performance of a magnum in a AR package and with the 6.8 they can have it if they make the correct choice.edited to clarify-not saying 300 win mag performance but a magnum AR caliber, many would like to hunt with their ARs and get as nuch performance as possible in that platform. 6.8SAAMI chamber 2500fps or improved spec barrel and chamber 2800fps it is completely the consumers choice and they will find what they want. Dealers that sell only Volkswagons do not sell many racecars. |
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<This thread is about purely the merits of 6.5 vs. 6.8. Please keep posts on-topic. - Z> |
It seems the current administration has decided that federal facilities can no longer be used to produce ammunition for the commercial market. There goes Lake City.
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This has nothing to do with the technical aspects of either round in question, both Z and I have issued enough statements to stay on topic, and edited enough, care to see what happens next?
Stay on topic. ~Cold |
It seems the current administration has decided that federal facilities can no longer be used to produce ammunition for the commercial market. There goes Lake City.
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This has nothing to do with the technical aspects of either round in question, both Z and I have issued enough statements to stay on topic, and edited enough, care to see what happens next?
Stay on topic. ~Cold |
"War is less costly than servitude. The choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." -Jean Dutourd
| both are good platforms but the 6.8 is better out of the shorter barrel, if I was shooting for 700+ yards I would go to the bigger gun like the 7.62*51 or the .338 |
It seems the current administration has decided that federal facilities can no longer be used to produce ammunition for the commercial market. There goes Lake City.
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Originally Posted By Grendelizor:
Originally Posted By coldair: both are good platforms but the 6.8 is better out of the shorter barrel
We hear this all the time. Constantly. Could you please define exactly what you mean? John | 6.5 Grendel: The Tier One AR Cartridge. | www.65grendel.com John... one load that I find very interesting is SSA's 85 grain TSX loaded in the box at 3030 fps out of a 16" SPC II, 1:10 barrel (IIRC) and the same load will hit 2850 fps or so out of a 10 inch barrel. This is straight off their website. High Tech Rancher has hit impressive velocities out of his 12.5 inch SBR. I don't have his numbers, he can post them if he wants. 2850 fps out of a 10 inch barrel with an off the shelf factory 6.8 load is impressive by anyone's standards. |
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So it sounds like "better" is defined as muzzle velocity, in the same way that the 6.8 SPC is "better" than a stay on topic, you've had plenty of chances from Z and I ~ Cold
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Originally Posted By Grendelizor:
So it sounds like "better" is defined as muzzle velocity, in the same way that the 6.8 SPC is (edited) John Clean out your IM box or staff will send you the note, you have an email from me, stay on topic, last warning. Also, I sent notes to anyone being edited in here 2 times or more, re read Z's first post on page one if you need a refresher on the finer points of this discussion. Well how would you define "better" or are you just nit picking ? Your own mod stated earlier in this thread, concerning compairsons , "My point is that there is no objective (view), written in stone .... It simply can't be done. " Not that your words are his but... you know everyone has their own reasons for choosing one over the other,, thats what this thread is designed to assist, allowing people to determine what they feel is right for them, and of course, see who can stay on topic in the process 
I don't even know, what is the mv in FPS of a 14.5 Grendel using a variety of loaded ammo? I don't read specs on the SBR'd 6.5 as I never see them discussed here. |
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excuse me for butting in Mike,
PDFs never come out right but this is Bill Alexanders reloading data- The red shows the 100gr Lapua and the velocity obtained from a 16" barrel is 2597fps. This is Bills hottest load at 54000psi. his recommended maximum load. SSAs 100gr Nosler load is as close as we can get weight wise , The SSA factory load shot through a chrono this week hit 2740fps, that load only produced apx 48000psi, SSA advertises it at 2650fps. At this anemic load it is still 50fps faster than Bills max load. when loaded up to 54000psi the velocity is closer to 2800fps or 200fps faster than the Grendel round with the same length barrel and weight bullet, faster bullet =more energy. If you use 1000ft lbs energy as a minimum to take medium sized game (deer)both the 6.5 and 6.8 are adequate out to 250-300yards. The extra velocity of the 6.8 will produce more energy to that range even if you did use an unsuitable 6.5 match bullet with a higher BC. If you compare a 6.5 100gr Nosler and a 6.8 100gr Nosler both with BCs near .350 with Bills max load and SSAs factory load the performance will be apx the same, not enough to argue over. The 6.8 is more efficient and uses faster powders to obtain better velocities in shorter barrels. The 6.5 uses slower powders which work better in longer barrels and possibly with heavier bullets. This is all about the case capacity to bore area ratio. This is and always has been a performance pissing match, it would be easy to settle with a shoot off. Bring the best Grendel built or 2 (short barrel and long barrel) with the best loads(100 Nosler not blowing primers) and shoot it against a 6.8 or 2 also shooting 100gr Noslers, could use the 90gr TNT also. Weight Type Manufacturer C.O.L. (in) Manufacturer/Type Weight (grains) Velocity (fps) Weight (grains) Velocity (fps) Velocity (fps) Velocity (fps) Velocity (fps) Velocity (fps) 90 TNT Speer 2.200 CCI#450 Hodgdon Benchmark 30.0 2800 30.5 2880 2936 2780 2730 2660 100 Scenar Lapua 2.260 CCI#450 Viht N133 27.0 2640 27.5 2710 Viht N135 27.2 2600 28.3 2720 Viht N530 27.0 2633 27.5 2729 Accurate 2460 27.5 2614 30.2 2810 2850 2770 2597 2540 |
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Originally Posted By Tim_W:
This is and always has been a performance pissing match, it would be easy to settle with a shoot off. Bring the best Grendel built or 2 (short barrel and long barrel) with the best loads(100 Nosler not blowing primers) and shoot it against a 6.8 or 2 also shooting 100gr Noslers, could use the 90gr TNT also. 2597 2540 Although this would be interesting, I don't think anyone has argued that the Grendel muzzle velocities would outperform the 6.8 at at any given barrel length. I believe Grendelizer in an earlier post was trying to get Coldair to stat facts on why the 6.8 is better out of a short barrel, rather then just stating information previously mentioned in this thread. After reading 6 pages of this thread, it appears to me that the 6.8 and 6.5 or apples and oranges even though they were both designed to be an improvement over the 5.56. They both have their advantages and disadvantages, and fanatic followers. |
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There are only two groups of chambers out there :
- Short Throat Group: which is a group of one that is The only one being the SAAMI (Remington): which has a short throat of only 0.050. The reason for this is it hamper performance significantly. Currently only 1 company is still using this poorly designed chamber. LMT which is reevaluating this when this last run of barrels is gone very much as Novekse did are the beginning of this year and now has a long lead modeled after his Mod O specs. The short throat restricted the amount the velocity that could be achieve and did not improve accuracy or any other area of performance. But this chamber and the others all use the same case and head spaces exactly the same. The only spec that matters to the end user is the throat. This chamber is one that should have never been. Long Throat Group: SPCII, DMR, DMR-C, Noveske Mod 0: These chambers use a .100 throat which is twice as long as the SAAMI. All the chambers in this group use basically this same throat length. The only difference between the chambers in this group is the SPCII uses the same loose tolerances of the originally SAAMI chamber much like the 5.56 has as the mil sets up there chambers to have a good amount of slop. The other chambers tighten up some of this slop to varying degrees without sacrificing normal reliability.. They ALL use the SAME longer throat .100" which is the only change that effects and gives the increase in performance (vel) as far as the chamber goes. Others would have you believe the difference are like mini wildcats or what have you. That you may have issue using ammo etc. ALL BS Can you use the same 5.56 ammo in your 5.56 NATO, 5.56 Wylde, 5.56 Noveske Mod 0 chambers that have been around for a long time? Of course!!! This is no different and the people trying to make this confusing know this but play stupid. Why do we not talk about all the 6.5 CSS for the Grendel that actually have different head spacing but shoot the same ammo and have different throats. The reason is who cares; people can figure it out. Even though they consider themselves the same round they have it figured out and they have actually spec differences that do effect the ammo where the 6.8 all use the same. Its not that hard if you are not looking to try and start fears were there is no issue. .The reason you are seeing these different chambers for the same cartridge is becasue the 6.8 has become quite popular and this has lead to a couple of shops refine the specs to offer even more accuracy without effecting other aspects. These are the only differences and nothing more. It has nothing to do with ammo specs what so ever. So for new buyers you only really have one chamber group to choose from and that is the long throat: The overwhelming most prominent version of this is the SPCII which was created by ART Kalawas of Silver State Armory (SSA). He did this after he noticed a difference in the commercial chamber specs from those of the barrels used by the mil of the original testing. DMR is a AR match chamber designed Harrison Beene of ARPerformance. The rather sloppy tolerances were reduced to increase accuracy without reducing regular shooting reliability. ARP also created the DMR-C which was designed specifically for the Xtreme barrel and is meant for chrome lined and combat barrels. John Noveske Mod O while I have not seen it yet I am sure is very much like the DMR/DMR-C from what I have seen of his 5.56 Mod 0. All commercial ammo can can be shot in any in spec 6.8 SPC regardless of chamber. The only factory made ammo that is made hotter and specifically for the long throat chambers is SSA Tactical line and it has that restriction written right on the label and all over its site and literature.. Even if used is a SAAMI chamber you are not looking at anything worse than what happens when 5.6 ammo is short from a .223 chamber and swipe or possibly a blown primer. The similarities of the 6.8 to the 5.56 are almost the same. No one seems to be calling for the huge complication of that and there is actually much more variation. The fact is, when the 6.8 was released, it was with a bad chamber which severely hampered performance and its development. The community with some of us donating sizable amounts time, equipment, money, and many pitching in any way they could have fairly quickly refined the 6.8 and its chamber and barrel specs to where the performance is much greater than it was. The issue as I see it is that some people feel so threaten by the 6.8 for what ever reason they do not want to acknowledge any of this forward progress. They only wish to show the old perf of the original SAAMI 1:9.5 barrels . For the longest time posting the high performance achievable with the refined specs were met with baseless claims and insinuations that to achieve this perf they must be over pressure or the numbers were grossly exaggerated. Even in the face of no signs of over pressure and no premature wear or early breakages with high round counts. These sing no matter how valid were claimed to not be scientific enough and only pressure testing woudl be valid. As part of the various performance tests and on going testing to further refine the 6.8s to achieve the best performance pressure testing equipment is now used and has been for almost a full year. We now have confirmed pressure traces along with now almost 2 years of 100s of hand loaders using and achieving these levels of performance with these loads in there rifles without a single occurrence of bolt failure or any premature wear of any kind. In fact I have yet to see a post of a 6.8 bolt failure. The fact is this performance in barrels with the specs recommended are well within safe pressure limits. Facts are facts and the evidence bears out that this is the performance possible no matter how vigorous baseless claims to the contrary. The chamber, twist rate , and rifling design have all been refined and tested to find out what achieves the best performance. The 6.8 is a much more refined cartridge today capable of significantly higher performance then its poorly designed early specs allowed. The stuff about SSA ammo and the insinuations of they must be over pressure are not only false but are completely baseless. You can not change the facts and truth with lies and disingenuous intent. The truth is the SSA ammo in question is specifically for guns with the proper specs. It states it all over the ammo and the site and literature. MIn spec SPCII 10 twist. Other ammo from Hornady Rem as is SSA commercial ammo is made to working in the lowest performing spec;d barrels in fact even in barrel even further. All ammo loads are tested and are thousands of PSI below SAAMI recommended maxs. In fact some to get best over all accuracy do not break 50K. As to the issue of ammo manufactures having issue and that there will still be old spec barrels out there. The ammo companies ALL OF THEM have already handled this issue before and still are. Take a look at pistol ammo +p and +P+. Different guns were rated for it and others were not. The issue of ammo companies not willing to make ammo of different levels doesn't pan out. And then ammo that is even above that level with the +P+. I also think its safe to say handguns are shot a hell of a lot harder than rifles even the typical AR. Not to mentoin any company could easily make ammo at the current level of today. I am about as done as I can be with this crap. Please feel free to caring on wasting band width and energy. |
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I thought I should reiterate the rules and the reasons for those rules that I laid out in the beginning of the thread. 6.5 vs. 6.8 is a touchy issue in this forum and I suppose that's understandable. There are zealots on both sides, and threads can quickly devolve into mud-slinging. To be succinct: I DO NOT WANT THAT TO HAPPEN IN THIS THREAD. Keep your audience in mind: This thread is supposed to help people to make a decision about which caliber they might want to buy. THERE WILL BE NO "WINNER" DECIDED IN THIS THREAD. Different people have different requirements, and each caliber can address a specific problem. Your job - as contributors to this post - is to delineate with data and or sound reasons for which caliber X is superior to caliber Y for a certain application. That is the reason the editing in this post has been heavy-handed and more restrictive than in most threads: To keep everything tightly focused and the noise down. Think of this as a FAQ; if you're looking for information, you don't want to wade through posts that are not informative and won't help you make a decision. Thanks for everyone's cooperation. |
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Originally Posted By Tim_W: This is Bills hottest load at 54000psi. his recommended maximum load.
Alexander Arms loads are loaded to a M.A.O.P. of 50,000 psi, not 54,000. Don't know where you get that. Originally Posted By Tim_W: Bring the best Grendel built or 2 (short barrel and long barrel) with the best loads (100 Nosler not blowing primers). . . .
Why would we bring a load that blew primers? What's that supposed to mean? John | 6.5 Grendel: The Tier One AR Cartridge. | www.65grendel.com |
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Anyone know what the MV is for the 6.5 in 14.5 " or smaller barrels, whatever load you have info on is fine so long as its not reloads and is current factory ammo? MudBug IM'd me about his new 12" T/C barrel in 6.5 that he will hunt with and now Im curious. I know he will post in info but it may be a week or two. But it's been brought up here and wondering for those of you with 14.5" barrels what are you getting with factory loads?
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Originally Posted By marinesg1012: Is there a way for us to define "better" everyone should look at his or her needs and or wants.... and read as much as possible and then make a decision. IMHO that should be the first or second sentance of each post when the writed tells us why they think a particular caliber is "Best". Then go into the paragraphs telling us why a particular caliber is best for that requirement. "Best" is driven by a persons priorities/requirements. If your requirements require busing woodchucks at 700m then the 6.5 might be 'best' for your application, while if you're a LEO looking for a SBR for patrol use the 6.8 and is superior industry support might be 'best'. ETA: Cold/Zhukov could we get a tack on this thread? |
'98 Jeep XJ Owner
6.8 > 6.5
6.8 > 6.5
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Originally Posted By Cold: Anyone know what the MV is for the 6.5 in 14.5 " or smaller barrels, From the 6.5 FAQ, which references David Fortier's 6.5 Grendel article on page 55 of Guns & Ammo's Book of the AR15 2006. 90 Speer TNT 14.5 bbl = 2686 fps 16 bbl = 2760 fps 24 bbl = 2978 fps 123 Lapua Scenar HPBT (BC .547) 14.5 bbl = 2486 fps 16 bbl = 2505 fps 24 bbl = 2650 fps |
'98 Jeep XJ Owner
6.8 > 6.5
6.8 > 6.5
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I have been shooting since I was 7 and in the firearms industry for over a decade yet in my 42 years
have never seen so much animosity generated by the proponents of two different cartridges. In some ways it's really quite funny at the childishness of it all. In other ways I just can't quite understand it. Even back in the hey day of Jeff Cooper and the .45 ACP VS 9x19mm I never saw anything that approached this. Why do people get so worked up over these two cartridges? Neither of which generate anything but a tiny part of AR-15 sales? I have played with both of these cartridges for years. I have shot a wide varieties of models from various companies at industry events. I have played with rifles owned and built by friends. Both are good rounds. They each have certain strengths and weaknesses. Neither are super cartridges or Magnums. I would take an old 19th Century .303 British over either for hunting big game. They are intermediate cartridges, nothing more, nothing less. However, what they are good at they are very good at. The 6.8s I have shot have all been very accurate and reliable. No issues there, even on full automatic. The 6.5 Grendels have also been very accurate and reliable. The only issues I have ever seen regarding Grendel reliability was due to early mag design. Reliability of the Grendel, even full automatic, has also been excellent. Without a doubt the 6.8 SPC started off with more momentum with the industry due to Remington having its name on the cartridge. Both cartridges were launched basically at the same time, but the 6.8 SPC had the force of the industry behind it. This has always given it an edge regarding design and development. Initially the 6.8 SPC had a distinct advantage by having projectiles developed specifically for it. The Grendel on the other hand had to make due with projectiles originally developed for other cartridges, such as the 6.5x55mm or .260 Remington. Over the years this has slowly started to change with better projectiles becoming available for the Grendel. Neither calibers have as wide a variety of projectiles available as .223 Rem. Regarding factory loaded ammunition. Neither calibers are as easy to find as .223 Rem/5.56. Both have some excellent loads available. One area where the Grendel has an advantage is on the economical end due to Wolf being an early adopter of the Grendel. While their 123 grain Soft Point is a truly dreadful load and should be avoided due to excessive copper fouling of the bore, their 120 grain MPT load is an excellent for the price. Wolf started a project a few years ago to bring steel case Grendel in from Russia, but this is stalled. When that finally happens the Grendel will have a truly inexpensive practice/training load available. The question of course is when. SSA is working on a less expensive 6.8 training load to help reduce training costs. Both have excellent hunting and match loads available. Regarding the ultra fast 6.8 lightweight bullet loads. These show how much work SSA has done on the 6.8. Their velocities are truly impressive. Short range performance should be very good and recoil mild. However there is much more to exterior ballistics than an impressive muzzle velocity. Such lightweight bullets have poor BCs and shed their velocity and retained energy very quickly. For general use, heavier but slower bullets are better for all around use, in my opinion, in both calibers. The Grendel has a built in safety margin in its working pressure. Bill Alexander's background is military and he developed his cartridge and rifles to have a very long service life. Pressures are low. A handloader can exceed the factory loads and Black Hills Grendel loads are quite a bit hotter than the AA loads. Currently there is never before seen interest in the 6.5mm Grendel from some very large players in the industry. It will not be going away any time soon. I would expect more offerings in the near future. The 6.8 SPC continues to evolve. Expect some new offerings by some and it being dropped by others. Neither cartridge is going away any time soon. Both are doing well. Things I personally like about the 6.5mm Grendel. In my experience it has excellent practical accuracy. I routinely use it 600 yards from a 16 inch carbine. Short range terminal performance has been excellent on medium size game. Recoil is fairly light and shot to shot recovery very fast, although not as fast as a 5.56. My 20 inch Grendel DMR type rifle will do anything I'd want from a 7.62x51mm AR10 type rifle in a much smaller and handier package. The cartridge is easy to reload. Brass can be easily made from 7.62x39mm cases. Case life is very good. However the Wolf brass cases are soft. I have shot a wide variety of bullet weights and have come to the conclusion that for my needs 120-123 grain bullets work best. I prefer a heavier bullet in 5.56 as well. I was in the middle of collecting parts and pieces to build a 6.8 SPC lightweight carbine with a Cardinal 16 inch barrel when they ran into issues. I held off on buying a barrel and then with the run up to the election and with the panic buying afterwards I decided not to add another caliber to my inventory. It's very plain that too many people get overly worked up regarding this matter. I suspect some of the more vocal have vested interests on one side or the other. For the person looking to buy one or the other, cut between the BS and read between the lines. Both are very good cartridges. If you feel you need to 'magnumize' either of them, step up to a larger caliber. Buy in confidence, neither are going away any time soon. Both are accurate and reliable. Both offer a very nice step up in terminal performance over the 5.56. When you see someone getting worked up over this matter tell them to chill.......they are just cartridges...... |
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Originally Posted By Gunwritr:Why do people get so worked up over these two cartridges?
Speaking for myself, three words: Potential Military Adoption. What does any of us have to do with that? You would think, nothing. However, years ago now, I received phone calls from Messrs. Roberts and Holland to the effect that what is said on the internet matters in certain ways to certain observers. John | 6.5 Grendel: The Tier One AR Cartridge. | www.65grendel.com |
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One big advantage I have not seen anyone mention yet is:
Grendel brass can be easily made from 7.62x39 brass. As in the high quality IMI brass recently sold by the thousands very inexpensively. One swipe through the normal grendel sizing die, a slightly (-5%) reduced fireforming/plinking load, and instant Grendel brass. Also let's you use more widely available Large Rifle primers, etc. Need a shellholder? 7.62x39, in stock at all my local shops. Same for a case trimmer mandrel, 7.62x39 worked. Combine that with the wide range of 6.5mm high BC bullets and it's a winning combo in my book. Or the inexpensive bulk 6.5mm bullets from the euro mauser crowd...... Pretty cheap shooting! Cheap (relatively) wolf brass cased ammo availability is a plus... sure it's not match ammo, but to have around in case the zombies attack and you run through your good stuff, sure is cheaper than 6.8 and I am quite confident that at normal zombie range (under 100) the accuracy & power is sufficient. :-) For quite a while I was buying Wolf Grendel cheaper than brass cased 5.56, and more importantly, it was available. My brother & I both built grendels from JT kits, and for the money feel it's a great value. You can spend more for sure, and Bill Alexander makes nice stuff. But if you want to play on a budget, you can get in the grendel business for not much more money than 5.56. (once you factor in ammo, reloading components, etc) Another data point. I view this as win/win. Two very good calibers for us to play with! (Though I know my favorite!) Have fun, Alan |
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As a preface, I've got a DPMS .308 and a LMT 5.56, so I do not have a horse in this race.
As a seperate preface, I would suggest that "better" should be judged for a given application in terms of whether a given round is more able to accomplish the purpose of the shooter than the other round. Variations that do not result in a change in that ability should be considered a tie, and thus not dispositive. It seems that there are two primary arguments going on here with regard to performance (ignoring the availability/industry support issue): 1. The Grendel round is superior to the 6.8 SPC (in any incarnation, be it SAAMI or SPC II) past 600 yards. 2. The 6.8 SPC round in its current incarnation (SPC II/DMR) is superior to the Grendel round for short range (<300 yards) and SBR applications. Contention 1: Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that contention 1 is pretty much not in dispute. Some debate the importance of that distance, but for distance shooting, the 6.5 is superior to the .308 in terms of its retained energy (ballistics info based upon factory 168gr. loads in the .308 vs. the 123gr scenar load in the Grendel). Contention 2: With regard to contention 2, it appears a little less settled. Again, there appear to be two seperate parts to this: Contention 2A: The 6.8 is better for distances under 300 yards A number of people have stated that the rounds are for entirely different purposes. While it's certainly apparent that many people believe this to be true, is there significant evidence that the Grendel is substantially inferior <300 yards? Granted, the Grendel is less optimized than the 6.8 for the range, but is it inferior to the 6.8? I've seen no evidence in this thread that points to that conclusion. If there's no significant difference in performance at under 300 yards between the Grendel and the 6.8, then this would seem to be a tie. Contention 2B: The 6.8 is better for SBR applications. There's some suggestion, it appears, that the "best" way to compare these two rounds is to try to find comparable loadings and then compare muzzle velocity. But this seems the wrong way around––the Grendel has a MUCH lower velocity drop per inch of decreased barrel length when using the heavier loadings (i.e. the 123gr. Scenar or the 129gr. SST). To compare at 100gr is near the top end of the 6.8 and near the bottom end of the 6.5, possibly handicapping the 6.5. Note the difference in MV drop between the 16" and 14.5" barrel on a 90gr. vs the 123gr. load. So, I think it would be more helpful to look at the best SBR load in the 6.8 vs. the best SBR load in the Grendel. Again, does anyone have this information? If there's no significant difference in performance, then see the end of 2A. Sorry to be so long-winded. I'm interested in getting an upper chambered in one of these rounds, and I would find answers/responses to the above-discussed issues very enlightening. LR |
| If someone wants to sponsor the test and provide ammo and uppers, we'd be happy to test the best 6.5G load and the best 6.8 mm load out of both a 10-12" barrel and a 16" barrel in both bare gel and through auto windshields. That should put the matter to rest once and for all. |
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Originally Posted By DocGKR:
If someone wants to sponsor the test and provide ammo and uppers, we'd be happy to test the best 6.5G load and the best 6.8 mm load out of both a 10-12" barrel and a 16" barrel in both bare gel and through auto windshields. That should put the matter to rest once and for all. Talk to Constructor over on 68Forums, let him know which bullets. |
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When Size Matters 6.8 SPC
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<Off-topic comments removed - Z> |
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<Off-topic comments removed - Z> Let's see, have spent the past 22 years of my life testing ammunition for LE and the USG as part of my assigned duties. I am currently involved in rifle projects working on improving 5.56 mm loads, testing intermediate caliber (6-7 mm) systems, enhancing 7.62 x51mm based cartridges, as well as upgrading long range sniper systems. With respect to 6.5G vs. 6.8 mm––I did not invent either caliber, I have NO financial or other interest in the success or failure of either caliber or any other product, company, or commercial entity involved in any weapon or ammunition program, nor do I write for commercial gun rags and media sources that are dependent on advertising revenue from firearms and ammo vendors. I have publicly stated several times that I will happily support whichever intermediate caliber that best meets end-user requirements. My SOLE interest is ensuring the safety of LE officers and that our Nation's military personnel have the best possible munitions that meet current law of war legal requirementsI I'd say that is about as unbiased as a person can get. |
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<Off-topic comments removed - Z> Since your IM inbox is full, I have no choice than to post this publicly: Please keep your comments on-topic. If I have to edit one more post of yours, you will get an official warning, and I may request staff to temp-lock your account. I laid out specific rules for that thread, and I want those rules to be followed. Thanks for your cooperation. Regards, Z |
6.8SPC or 6.5G? Which one should I buy? (Page 3 of 14)
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