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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Carl Gustaf NATO 5.56X45/.223 62grn (Page 4 of 7)
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Yeah, I ordered a case from Midway before AIM was offering theirs for $399. About an hour later the AIM came up and I went ahead and bought another case. Sure I payed quite a bit, but this appears to be a legitimate AP round, and if nothing else an interesting conversation piece. I wish their was some way to get real M855A1, but it now appears that won't ever happen via legal channels. I'd still like to find some M995 as well. |
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Yeah, I ordered a case from Midway before AIM was offering theirs for $399. About an hour later the AIM came up and I went ahead and bought another case. Sure I payed quite a bit, but this appears to be a legitimate AP round, and if nothing else an interesting conversation piece. I wish their was some way to get real M855A1, but it now appears that won't ever happen via legal channels. I'd still like to find some M995 as well. If I could replace the one round of 855A1 I have, I would shoot it at the plate too |
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Quoted: Yeah, I ordered a case from Midway before AIM was offering theirs for $399. About an hour later the AIM came up and I went ahead and bought another case. Sure I payed quite a bit, but this appears to be a legitimate AP round, and if nothing else an interesting conversation piece. I wish their was some way to get real M855A1, but it now appears that won't ever happen via legal channels. I'd still like to find some M995 as well. Lots of countries are moving to steel cores as their standard ball rounds in order to meet 'green' standards. They do not consider them to be AP though and they have separate tungsten core rounds for that. |
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Quoted: Lots of countries are moving to steel cores as their standard ball rounds in order to meet 'green' standards. They do not consider them to be AP though and they have separate tungsten core rounds for that. Quoted: Quoted: Yeah, I ordered a case from Midway before AIM was offering theirs for $399. About an hour later the AIM came up and I went ahead and bought another case. Sure I payed quite a bit, but this appears to be a legitimate AP round, and if nothing else an interesting conversation piece. I wish their was some way to get real M855A1, but it now appears that won't ever happen via legal channels. I'd still like to find some M995 as well. Lots of countries are moving to steel cores as their standard ball rounds in order to meet 'green' standards. They do not consider them to be AP though and they have separate tungsten core rounds for that. True. These are not on the level of a tungsten core AP round, though I'm sure penetration was considered during development. |
| I have only one concern with this ammo hopefully someone has knowledge of. One of its advantages is listed as being "non-toxic" or lead free. I do not trust lead free primers for long term storage. One seller advertises it as ideal for long term storage. Question: Does anyone know about the shelf life or composition of the primer? I know it is berdan primed and I am sure it is reliable in the short term or it would not be in military use. But what about the long term? I was hoping a member with deep understanding of cartridges could chime in. |
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By chance I stumbled onto this stuff on AIM when it was in stock and bought a case. Fished my first AR build a couple weeks ago and only have Wolf Gold on hand right now.
I'm curious how this stuff will perform due to the mixed reviews. I'm familiar with M855 through rifle qualifications, wonder how it compares. |
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My shooting partner and I have been shooting this on and off since the summer.
We found that: 1. It is HOT ammo. One of our rifles exhibited flattened primers and several were pierced. It may have had an out of spec chamber and or a tight leade. The recoil is snappy. 2. It is the most accurate standard 62gr military issue ammo I have ever shot. we were able to get MOA at 100 yds bench rested with a good barrel. The projectile is very long and works great in a 1:7 or 1:8 twist. 3.The front part of the core is much harder that the rear part which seems to be mild steel. It completely penetrates 3/8" mild steel railroad tie plates at 50 yds. It is an excellent barrier buster IMO. It is much closer to AP than M855's wildest dreams. |
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The post I quoted from didn't mention you were already a owner. Quoted:
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What does what I own have to do with someone who also owns it conducting tests??? The post I quoted from didn't mention you were already a owner. What does that matter? People ate curious about how this round performs. |
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AIM has about 300 cans of it in stock right now. They say last shipment.
Here |
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And they are selling 100rd packs..... I would have just ordered 1-200 rounds for testing if they did that last time! |
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This is not the newer, redesigned version Quoted:
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Description says "recent production". Will this be the safer stuff or the 09/10' production? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile This is not the newer, redesigned version OK, thanks. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Does anyone have any reliable information on how much the non-toxic primers will affect the shelf life? I assume different non-toxic primers may differ in this respect. Any experience with these? It could explain why 2009 ammo is being replaced in 2014. Very curious about this as well. If this ammo is 2009-2011 production and and is non-toxic, lead free as claimed. Lead free primers have a shorter(5 years, give or take) shelf life, how long will this ammo be reliable? |
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Here is FNH's Response to a Lead Free ammo shelf life e-mail question:
"Healey Shane [email protected] Dear sir, Our supplier guarantees the primer 10 years subject to storage in original packaging at a temperature between +10°C and +30°C and at an humidity not higher than 80%. Best regards Shane Healey" I would think Sweden's primers would last at least that long considering they do not have a "use by" date on the ammo. |
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So whats the deal with this stuff. I was reading elsewhere it has a full steel core with no lead whatsoever. Is this true? Correct no lead at all, a hardened front core and a larger mild steel read core. Meets the ATF's current definition of armor piercing. |
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Is it any better at penetration that standard m855 clones? Yes according to my comparison. I posted this earlier: My shooting partner and I have been shooting this on and off since the summer. We found that: 1. It is HOT ammo. One of our rifles exhibited flattened primers and several were pierced. It may have had an out of spec chamber and or a tight leade. The recoil is snappy. 2. It is the most accurate standard 62gr military issue ammo I have ever shot. we were able to get MOA at 100 yds bench rested with a good barrel. The projectile is very long and works great in a 1:7 or 1:8 twist. 3.The front part of the core is much harder that the rear part which seems to be mild steel. It completely penetrates 3/8" mild steel railroad tie plates at 50 yds. It is an excellent barrier buster IMO. It is much closer to AP than M855's wildest dreams. |
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Is this a statement from experience? Quoted:
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I would really like to see how this performs against 1/4" and 3/8" AR500. It barely puts a dimple in it.... I am curious as to how much more effective this ammo is vs standard M855....hopefully someone can do the AR500 test. |
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I am curious as to how much more effective this ammo is vs standard M855....hopefully someone can do the AR500 test. Quoted:
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I would really like to see how this performs against 1/4" and 3/8" AR500. It barely puts a dimple in it.... I am curious as to how much more effective this ammo is vs standard M855....hopefully someone can do the AR500 test. AR500 is hardened steel plate and very resistant to almost all common military rifle calibers. You would need something like .30 caliber AP, or a high powered rifle, to do any significant damage to it. I'd be more interested to see how much it will penetrate through wood and mild steel, barriers you are much more likely to encounter in the real world. I'd love to see how it would preform in this test! 
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Is this a statement from experience? Quoted:
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I would really like to see how this performs against 1/4" and 3/8" AR500. It barely puts a dimple in it.... Yes, I have several AR500 targets and regularly shoot 855 at it, probably 10k rounds, even at 25 yards it barely puts a dimple in it.... I have also shot 3/8 AR500 with 30-06 AP and 7.62x55r AP at 50 yards with just a small dimple, no dent on the back side, just dimple on the front. Its gonna take alot more than that to punch a hole in 3/8 AR500. Now regular mild steel it will punch a hole through easily... |
| I just stumbled across it today and bought a case on impulse before reading this thread, but now I'm a little concerned. Has anyone shot this ammo suppressed? Also, one guy said to not fire it in a 223 chamber no matter what. What would be the worst that would happen if I tried it in a wylde chambered 10.5 build? |
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Quoted: Yes, I have several AR500 targets and regularly shoot 855 at it, probably 10k rounds, even at 25 yards it barely puts a dimple in it.... I have also shot 3/8 AR500 with 30-06 AP and 7.62x55r AP at 50 yards with just a small dimple, no dent on the back side, just dimple on the front. Its gonna take alot more than that to punch a hole in 3/8 AR500. Now regular mild steel it will punch a hole through easily... Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I would really like to see how this performs against 1/4" and 3/8" AR500. It barely puts a dimple in it.... Yes, I have several AR500 targets and regularly shoot 855 at it, probably 10k rounds, even at 25 yards it barely puts a dimple in it.... I have also shot 3/8 AR500 with 30-06 AP and 7.62x55r AP at 50 yards with just a small dimple, no dent on the back side, just dimple on the front. Its gonna take alot more than that to punch a hole in 3/8 AR500. Now regular mild steel it will punch a hole through easily... I'll probably try it myself since no one else has tried it yet. |
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AR500 is what tanks and armored cars use. 5 inch thick mil spec steel is what is most commonly used these days.
Steel isn't dense enough to pierce it. Thats why most armies use RPG's or Carl Gustov's other creation the M45 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onr3iH7vNco a focused energetic monroe force moving as a very high 6000 fps can penetrate dense materials vs gun powder at 4000 to 5000 fps . Yes you can hit armor like this at 4000 FPS but the steel will just shatter. You have to go down the periodic table with something with greater tensile / density . So you need to pierce AR 500 you have to go with Tungsten ammo and get danger close to it . Its like a graphite pencil being thrown. . |
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Quoted: AR500 is what tanks and armored cars use. 5 inch thick mil spec steel is what is most commonly used these days. Steel isn't dense enough to pierce it. Thats why most armies use RPG's or Carl Gustov's other creation the M45 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onr3iH7vNco a focused energetic monroe force moving as a very high 6000 fps can penetrate dense materials vs gun powder at 4000 to 5000 fps . Yes you can hit armor like this at 4000 FPS but the steel will just shatter. You have to go down the periodic table with something with greater tensile / density . So you need to pierce AR 500 you have to go with Tungsten ammo and get danger close to it . Its like a graphite pencil being thrown. . |
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with 5.56 rounds and steel plates at short distances, its more about velocity than it is bullet construction. this is why its been known for many years that M193 will penetrate 1/4" AR500 at very close range while M855 will not. however, at longer ranges M855 will out-penetrate M193 and M80. the metric that NATO uses to compare bullet penetration is at what max range a round will penetrate standard NATO armor plate (3.5mm mild steel). M855 penetrates it out to 570m (iirc), while this Carl Gustav (Nammo NM229) does it out to 625m. the upgraded less toxic round (NM255) will penetrate NATO plate out to 725m |
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with 5.56 rounds and steel plates at short distances, its more about velocity than it is bullet construction. this is why its been known for many years that M193 will penetrate 1/4" AR500 at very close range while M855 will not. however, at longer ranges M855 will out-penetrate M193 and M80. the metric that NATO uses to compare bullet penetration is at what max range a round will penetrate standard NATO armor plate (3.5mm mild steel). M855 penetrates it out to 570m (iirc), while this Carl Gustav (Nammo NM229) does it out to 625m. the upgraded less toxic round (NM255) will penetrate NATO plate out to 725m Since the Aimsurplus stuff is supposedly new shipments.... do you know how to tell between the two, or what year they changed? |
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Quoted: Since the Aimsurplus stuff is supposedly new shipments.... do you know how to tell between the two, or what year they changed? Quoted: Quoted: with 5.56 rounds and steel plates at short distances, its more about velocity than it is bullet construction. this is why its been known for many years that M193 will penetrate 1/4" AR500 at very close range while M855 will not. however, at longer ranges M855 will out-penetrate M193 and M80. the metric that NATO uses to compare bullet penetration is at what max range a round will penetrate standard NATO armor plate (3.5mm mild steel). M855 penetrates it out to 570m (iirc), while this Carl Gustav (Nammo NM229) does it out to 625m. the upgraded less toxic round (NM255) will penetrate NATO plate out to 725m Since the Aimsurplus stuff is supposedly new shipments.... do you know how to tell between the two, or what year they changed? the manufacture date is on the brass and also on the plastic bag they are sealed in. all of this so far has been 09-10 stuff. the NM255 didnt start production until 2012 i think and was supposed to be NATO qualified last year just saw this at ammunitionstore. its the exact same thing as the CG labeled can just with a different sticker. they even use the same description  |
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When mine shows up I will post about it.
I ordered another 200 rounds of Aim's latest shipment too. We will see then... finger's crossed 
BTW: I'm assuming Aim is reusing their photo from the last batch. It would also make sense though that they are selling off the "worse" stuff. |
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Quoted: When mine shows up I will post about it. I ordered another 200 rounds of Aim's latest shipment too. We will see then... finger's crossed BTW: I'm assuming Aim is reusing their photo from the last batch. It would also make sense though that they are selling off the "worse" stuff. i doubt that the new version will ever hit the surplus market |
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I see they list "recent production" as 2007+, but what year were the apparent issues with this ammo corrected? Is it 2012 and after? Nammo had 30 million rounds of NM229 they had to buy back last year and apparently dump on the American market; don't expect to see any of the replacement NM225 ammo in the USA any time soon. In regards to "issues" with the NM229, basically the new NM225 ammo has a longer boat tail to reduce barrel fouling, a new leaded primer, and a new no ammonia smell powder. Best guess is they traded away some soft tissue lethality with the NM225 design, but improved barrel life and long range ballistics. Probably people shooting NM229 in HK416's (or anything else with a tight bore) might want to choose something else, as you'll probably get over pressure signs and more airborne metal exposure. What would be very interesting is to see how the NM229 performs in a polygonal bore |
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with 5.56 rounds and steel plates at short distances, its more about velocity than it is bullet construction. this is why its been known for many years that M193 will penetrate 1/4" AR500 at very close range while M855 will not. however, at longer ranges M855 will out-penetrate M193 and M80. the metric that NATO uses to compare bullet penetration is at what max range a round will penetrate standard NATO armor plate (3.5mm mild steel). M855 penetrates it out to 570m (iirc), while this Carl Gustav (Nammo NM229) does it out to 625m. the upgraded less toxic round (NM255) will penetrate NATO plate out to 725m The increased plate penetrating range of the NM255 is probably a function of its longer boat tail giving it a higher retained velocity at distance versus the NM229 |
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Quoted: AR500 is hardened steel plate and very resistant to almost all common military rifle calibers. You would need something like .30 caliber AP, or a high powered rifle, to do any significant damage to it. I'd be more interested to see how much it will penetrate through wood and mild steel, barriers you are much more likely to encounter in the real world. I'd love to see how it would preform in this test!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLitgXZnjjw&index=13&list=PL7337CFD1A573C18FQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I would really like to see how this performs against 1/4" and 3/8" AR500. It barely puts a dimple in it.... I am curious as to how much more effective this ammo is vs standard M855....hopefully someone can do the AR500 test. AR500 is hardened steel plate and very resistant to almost all common military rifle calibers. You would need something like .30 caliber AP, or a high powered rifle, to do any significant damage to it. I'd be more interested to see how much it will penetrate through wood and mild steel, barriers you are much more likely to encounter in the real world. I'd love to see how it would preform in this test! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLitgXZnjjw&index=13&list=PL7337CFD1A573C18FLooks like I need to stock up on some M856 |
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It's kind of surprising, but not really when you look at the total length of the massive bullet (the reason why the M16 turned into a 1-7 twist weapon in the first place). I wonder how it does in ballistics gel!
Edit: Nevermind, looks like I answered my own question!
Wow, that looks absolutely devastating! ....maybe I should just stock up on that stuff! Looks like it makes short work of concrete walls too! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQRmHVTze-g
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Thats shitty 
Would I be putting my gun or self at risk by only using a 1000 rounds? Or better off selling the lot entirely? The Norwegian's in Afghanistan said this: "We have been repeatedly on the range and shot up to 200 shots per person, per session each day. Most feel strongly chest discomfort, throat and oral cavity after this shooting, which leads to uncomfortable cough for several hours after the shooting is completed. " The fact that such problems were reported at both OUTDOOR and indoor ranges is concerning, but it's tempered by the fact it was large groups of people shooting the stuff all at the same time. https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dagbladet.no%2F2009%2F03%2F06%2Fnyheter%2Finnenriks%2Fforsvaret%2Fhelse%2F5158015%2F&edit-text= |
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I've destroyed barrels with as little as 1000 rounds of this ammo (stainless matchbarrel). Chromed barrels usually have a lifespan of 5-7k before they start opening up the group size radically.
Nammo had to buy back a lot of these from the Norwegian Army, because of several different issues (illness, barrel life, pressure). Over here, most shooters will not use them in their personal guns. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Carl Gustaf NATO 5.56X45/.223 62grn (Page 4 of 7)
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