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Posted: 5/29/2013 9:55:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2017 11:55:32 AM EDT by pezboytate]
I'm working on fixing the broken links.

I thought it would be nice to have a visualization of different zeros for comparison. I have seen trajectories and a few images of where to aim but I think having a lot of them together would be better for comparison.

The X is center mass, the red dot is where you need to aim to hit center of mass, and the black dot is where you would hit if you did aim at center mass.

A 25m/25y zero is comparable to the 300m zero.
A 50m/50y zero is comparable to the 200m zero.
A 75m/75y zero would be in between the 100m and 150m zero.

These are all with the target the same size:

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These are all with the reticle the same size:

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M16A4

M16A4

Trijicon reticles:

















Elcan reticles:





Vortex reticles:







ACSS reticles:













US Army Qualification Holds:













If anyone sees any errors, please let me know.

I will make a few more later so if there are any requests let me know. I can do different size targets, more ranges, different rounds, different zeros, etc.

Dustin
Link Posted: 5/29/2013 11:46:38 AM EDT
That is good info, thanks for posting it.
Link Posted: 5/29/2013 11:52:55 AM EDT
I prefer a 200yd zero on anything with magnification, it puts me the closest to POA consistently from zero to ~250 without any adjustment.

I usually zero red dots/holographics at 100yd, but my CQ 2/3gun SBR is zeroed around 50yd.
Link Posted: 5/29/2013 12:22:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/29/2013 12:23:38 PM EDT by Andr0id]
I would love to see the XM193 50yd/200m zero recommended by Eotech.

I guess that may be the 200m you already posted.

Link Posted: 5/29/2013 12:32:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Andr0id:
I would love to see the XM193 50yd/200m zero recommended by Eotech.

I guess that may be the 200m you already posted.



I want to do them all with the EoTech 65 MOA reticle as well for scale. The M193 will be slightly different, especially out of a longer barrel.

I want to confirm the hold over/under before making a shooter's perspective as well.
Link Posted: 5/29/2013 12:38:51 PM EDT
tag to view later/ not on my phone
Link Posted: 5/29/2013 1:53:29 PM EDT
Nice post! That gives a great visual. Which zero do you prefer for a non magnified optic, like my 4moa Aimpoint?
Link Posted: 5/29/2013 2:17:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/29/2013 2:19:36 PM EDT by pezboytate]
Originally Posted By dash13:
Nice post! That gives a great visual. Which zero do you prefer for a non magnified optic, like my 4moa Aimpoint?


All have their advantages and disadvantages. For iron sights I prefer a 300m or 200m zero and for red dots I prefer a 200m or 100m zero. All of my magnified optics have BDC so there really isn't a zero but I leave them at 200m or 300m. For close quarters and the ability to make head shots or shots through small windows a 100m or 200m zero is best. For the ability to make hits out to 400+m a 300m zero is best but you give up accuracy up close. Another consideration is that with the 200m and 300m zero you have hold unders up close and hold overs far out which can be hard to quickly remember. With a 100m zero there are only hold overs. This is why iron sights are better with a 200m or 300m zero since the sights cover the target with hold overs. If you are using adjustable irons or a BDC optic zero for elevation at the farthest range possible and then change to 100m or 200m after.
Link Posted: 5/29/2013 2:47:33 PM EDT
For a magnified scope, I zero at 100 and use the ranging lines on the reticle for my holdovers. For original iron sights, 25M/300M. For 1X red-dot and BUIS, 50M/200M. The 50/200 is the most useful zero for 1X and BUIS as you can see by your nice graphic. It's a flat trajectory with good hits out to 250 without holdover. Considering you will be using M193, don't be surprised if your groups with a 4 MOA dot are big, making it difficult to find the center of the groups for the purpose of adjusting the sights. You might consider a 1:7 barrel for the heavier loads, M855 and up to 77gr. A barrel for M193 should be 1:9 and it will be good for 62gr M855 too.
Link Posted: 5/29/2013 6:31:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2014 12:52:40 PM EDT by Lancelot]
Link Posted: 5/29/2013 6:35:20 PM EDT
Very nice.
Link Posted: 5/31/2013 2:35:35 PM EDT
Updated
Link Posted: 5/31/2013 7:45:06 PM EDT
Just out of curiosity, how did you create these graphics? They are great! I like the ones where you keep the dot the same and change the size of the target. This is a concept that seems to be lost on a lot of people. You can estimate range by comparing the sight to the target.

For sights/scopes with external adjustments I prefer to know the number of clicks for each range. For quicker shooting it is good however to also know what part of the sight to align with what part of the target.

Look up the terms "maximum point blank range" or "battle sight zero" for a good discussion of where to put you zero when there is no time to adjust between shots.

For better ballistics info, you could put your data into a ballistics calculator.
Link Posted: 5/31/2013 10:42:46 PM EDT
I used a drafting program that is very accurate. I found what 1 MOA was at 100m and used ratios to put the proper size dot with the proper size target. The only part I had to estimate was the thickness of the EoTech's outer ring. The rise and drop were taken from a ballistics calculator. The trajectory charts I have seen online look like way less drop but I believe this is because they use a longer barrel, M193 and yards instead of meters most of the time. I think I will do iron sights next.
Link Posted: 6/3/2013 7:55:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/3/2013 8:00:36 AM EDT by Knife_Sniper]
Those are great!

Here is my video of a 2MOA dot with a 50 yard zero. I have some representation of the dots added into the video to show the viewer my hold. I found it much easier to score hits out to 400 yards with a red dot than iron sights.



Link Posted: 6/3/2013 9:48:19 AM EDT
Excellent post for beginners learning their holdovers and experienced guys revising.
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 4:16:43 PM EDT
BTT
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 8:54:16 PM EDT
These would be excellent training aids pezboytate. Nice job!
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 10:09:40 PM EDT
Should be tacked.
Link Posted: 10/25/2013 8:20:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/25/2013 8:34:32 AM EDT by stlb55]
I enjoyed Nate's video on a 50 yard zero. Having a +/- of 2" out to 250 yards sounds great for how I want to use my rifle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG9bax0TcXc
Link Posted: 10/25/2013 9:57:46 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By stlb55:
I enjoyed Nate's video on a 50 yard zero. Having a +/- of 2" out to 250 yards sounds great for how I want to use my rifle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG9bax0TcXc
View Quote
Just remember where to -/+ are when shooting at targets 5 inches or less at distance.
Link Posted: 1/21/2014 11:04:30 AM EDT
BTT
Link Posted: 2/5/2014 1:43:31 PM EDT
New images added. Any requests or suggestions are welcome.
Link Posted: 2/5/2014 4:27:17 PM EDT
Thanks for posting. Any chance you'll craft a chart for the Elcan Specter DR?
Link Posted: 2/5/2014 4:38:57 PM EDT
This is an AWESOME thread! I'm glad it was resurrected!

Thanks!!!!
Link Posted: 2/5/2014 9:50:11 PM EDT
Awesome. This needs to be a sticky. Seriously.
Link Posted: 2/5/2014 10:13:19 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By iiiwildfireiii:
Awesome. This needs to be a sticky. Seriously.
View Quote


Huge +1. The visuals are outstanding. I can't believe this is the first time I came across this thread.
Link Posted: 2/25/2014 9:49:02 AM EDT
Bump for a great topic.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 2/25/2014 10:19:56 AM EDT
Great post , thanks.

ACOG horseshoe reticle next , perhaps?
Link Posted: 2/25/2014 11:00:21 AM EDT
Great thread. Thanks for the work you've put into it.
Link Posted: 2/25/2014 8:39:43 PM EDT
Awesome!
Link Posted: 2/25/2014 8:51:12 PM EDT
Thanks op. this should be stickied. Is it me or does the acog seem so much user friendly
Link Posted: 3/5/2014 11:00:06 AM EDT
Updated
Link Posted: 3/5/2014 3:26:37 PM EDT
Bravo, sir! Thank you...this should be a sticky and updated as needed!
Link Posted: 5/7/2014 2:24:40 PM EDT
BTT
Link Posted: 5/7/2014 6:11:22 PM EDT
Sticky please?
Link Posted: 5/8/2014 1:14:41 AM EDT
Holy crap, thank you!!!

Sticky!
Link Posted: 5/17/2014 3:34:21 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RDTCU:
I prefer a 200yd zero on anything with magnification, it puts me the closest to POA consistently from zero to ~250 without any adjustment.

I usually zero red dots/holographics at 100yd, but my CQ 2/3gun SBR is zeroed around 50yd.
View Quote


Why would you deviate from the manufacturers recommended zero procedure? Making the BDC meaningless? Do you think you understand their product better than they do? I am curious....

I understand your desire to not think about it... But a bit of advice, you might want to think about it so you actually understand what is happening and can hit things at any distance. It is amazing to me how many people on arfcom dont understand the line of sight to trajectory thing at all, even some of our seasoned posters. Id bet its more than 50%....
Link Posted: 5/24/2014 2:34:06 AM EDT
Any plans for the Elcan with the chevron?

Good write up.
Link Posted: 6/4/2014 12:09:40 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DirtDivision:
Any plans for the Elcan with the chevron?

Good write up.
View Quote


Post a link to the reticle you are referring to and I'll see what I can do.
Link Posted: 6/9/2014 12:07:19 AM EDT
This is the Reticle. Also how would this correspond with my 10.5 sbr?



Link Posted: 6/14/2014 8:54:40 AM EDT
Nice. Tag.
Link Posted: 6/16/2014 1:42:03 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DirtDivision:
This is the Reticle. Also how would this correspond with my 10.5 sbr?

http://www.eurooptic.com/images/reticles/Elcan-reticle.jpg

View Quote


Do you know if that is calibrated for a 14.5" barrel with M855? What round are you using with your 10.5" barrel?
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 6:09:22 PM EDT
Hmm very interesting. ill keep this in mind when picking an optic for 3 gun competitions
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 11:04:57 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By pezboytate:


Do you know if that is calibrated for a 14.5" barrel with M855? What round are you using with your 10.5" barrel?
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By pezboytate:
Originally Posted By DirtDivision:
This is the Reticle. Also how would this correspond with my 10.5 sbr?

http://www.eurooptic.com/images/reticles/Elcan-reticle.jpg



Do you know if that is calibrated for a 14.5" barrel with M855? What round are you using with your 10.5" barrel?



The Elcan manual says its calibrated for M855 out of an M4 barrel so im going to say yes. I shoot mostly xm193 out of this gun.
Link Posted: 6/19/2014 12:09:00 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DirtDivision:



The Elcan manual says its calibrated for M855 out of an M4 barrel so im going to say yes. I shoot mostly xm193 out of this gun.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DirtDivision:
Originally Posted By pezboytate:
Originally Posted By DirtDivision:
This is the Reticle. Also how would this correspond with my 10.5 sbr?

http://www.eurooptic.com/images/reticles/Elcan-reticle.jpg



Do you know if that is calibrated for a 14.5" barrel with M855? What round are you using with your 10.5" barrel?



The Elcan manual says its calibrated for M855 out of an M4 barrel so im going to say yes. I shoot mostly xm193 out of this gun.


Got it done except one last thing. What distance are you zeroed at?
Link Posted: 6/19/2014 2:29:29 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By pezboytate:


Got it done except one last thing. What distance are you zeroed at?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By pezboytate:
Originally Posted By DirtDivision:
Originally Posted By pezboytate:
Originally Posted By DirtDivision:
This is the Reticle. Also how would this correspond with my 10.5 sbr?

http://www.eurooptic.com/images/reticles/Elcan-reticle.jpg



Do you know if that is calibrated for a 14.5" barrel with M855? What round are you using with your 10.5" barrel?



The Elcan manual says its calibrated for M855 out of an M4 barrel so im going to say yes. I shoot mostly xm193 out of this gun.


Got it done except one last thing. What distance are you zeroed at?



TO be honest right now I'm dialed in for 75 yards but will change my zero if i get something good i can work with. Right now irons and Elcan are at 75. I haven't done any shooting further than that because to be honest i don't know how my ammunition performs in the 10.5 barrel.
Link Posted: 6/19/2014 3:42:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2014 3:46:07 PM EDT by pezboytate]
I went ahead and did it for 100m. If my ballistic calculations and math are right, it looks like you would be able to make hits out to 300m. The Mil lines on the sight look to be about the width of a torso at 50m as well.

Link Posted: 8/6/2014 11:19:34 AM EDT
BTT
Link Posted: 8/15/2014 1:41:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2014 1:42:49 AM EDT by M1MAN70]
Can anyone tell me if the TA31ECOS red crosshair BDC, from the 600m-100m range for the M240 SAW, would be accurate if shot out of a 16" AR barrel?
Link Posted: 8/18/2014 12:00:49 PM EDT
Really is a fantastic thread. Checking it out again as I had it bookmarked.
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