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Posted: 4/12/2006 1:05:43 PM EDT
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Due to the previous thread beig archived, I have to start a new post. Please do not vote again if you've already done so in the archived thread. Previous results 197 responses 113 had no problems 50 had minor problems 34 had major problems This thread is ONLY about the LOOSE boxed XM193PD variant Please add your personal experience with Lake City XM193PD ammunition to this thread. When you do, please give information about: 1) Firearm used in 2) Approximate number of rounds fired. I am trying to solicit only information about your PERSONAL experience with this ammunition. If you haven't used it, then please don't clutter up the thread. Information about proper functioning (or lack thereof) is obviously the most important, but factors such as the accuracy or other peculiarities you've noticed are informative also. If you have had problems with this ammo which were severe enough to cause you to stop using this ammo, then please describe them. And one more minor request: keep your reviews objective. This is part of the FAQ that Troy has written about the "PD" ammo:
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Triggerbender Half way thru 500. 6 wrinkled necks. 2 dented beyond use. 2 damaged projectiles. 1 real weak round when fired, did clear the barrel. Fired thru M16 semi-clone,1/12 twist, 20in. Gunseller First box of 500: 3 wrinkled necks 5 with big dents several more with handling dents. All fired without a problem. I have seen dents in ammo I was issued in the 70S that came on stripper clips. Inch and one half inch 10 round groups at 100 yards were the norm. After I received this ammo I started to have questions about quality. It was listed as M193 ammo when I ordered it. Not XM193PD. It was fire in a Colt AR-15 A2 Sporter II. When I started on the box the rifle had less than 50 rounds through it. I will order more when I need it. Bushwacker85 Just went through my 500 rounds by hand. Found about 13 or so with loose bullets or damaged necks/set back too far. I tossed the ones with damaged necks and the ones set back too far. Would it be safe to shoot cartridges with loose bullets and no other identifiable problems? I don't think I am getting anymore XM193PD. Not for $100 anyway. Hey, at least I didn't run into any pretzels. What is weird though is my XM855PD seems to be much better quality. 220ST I bought 1000 rounds loose packed last November from SG. I was kinda ticked when it said XM193PD on the box. Was advertised as XM193. I searched the site here back then and didn't find anything at all on the PD issue. So I kept the ammo. Went through the 2 500 round boxes and found a total of 4 bad rounds (dented). No other problems to report. I've shot about 350 rounds so far with no problems at all. It is loaded hot, and is accurate. Will I buy it in the future? Prolly not with all the bad press here. I plan on keeping 500 of mine held back for storage ammo (to keep my WINCHESTER Q3131A company). Will buy Rem, Win, PMC or Fed next time for plinking ammo. KJoeZ I have and looked thru 1500 rounds , about 20 questionable were pulled out. Went to the range today and sent 100 down without a problem. XM-193PD from SG Bushwacker85 You guys check for loose rounds? I wouldn't have noticed mine either until I physically pulled back and forth on the bullets. 50 rounds like this was just too much for me. Called Sportman's Guide and asked for a refund. No problem, they are sending me a pre-paid UPS shipping label to send my stuff back. The XM855PD seems to be pretty decent stuff. I went through my 500 of that by hand also, and I didn't find one I wouldn't shoot. mlm1219 I have gone through a thousand plus rounds of this ammo without any problems. I have not inspected each round but I may start due to this thread. nhsport opened one box of 500 and sorted out 10 rounds that had crappy looking crimps.(there was still 500 ok rounds,box held 510 ) I did a test fire in a plain barrel 20" 1/9 bushmaster with high power scope and sandbags off bench.This gun is stock except a RR NM trigger. XM193PD mostly 00 with some 01 and 02-3159fps/1.13" ten shot group @ 100yd. Win 62 gr USA223R3 lot VA31 2903fps/1.29" XM193 boxed lot 4 (01 headstamp) 3238fps/1.69" lot 2 (01 headstamp) 3129fps/1.76" lot 3 (01 headstamp) 3122fps/1.73" Win Q3131A lot tk71(wcc 02 ) 3100fps/2.88"--second string 2.19" XM193PD (nasty looking crimps) 2.38" 223-4me Bought 1000 XM-193PD and 1000 XM-855PD from Sportsmansguide. Both boxes had exactly 1000 rounds in them all in great condition. shot about 300 rounds of XM-193PD through a 14.5" Bushmaster M4A3, and another 300 through a 20" Bushmaster H-bar. It functioned fine in both rifles, very accurate, around 1.5- 2" 5-round groups at 100 with iron sights. only problem was the POI for the XM-193PD, and XM-855PD is about 12" higher than previous lots of the better grade, boxed XM-193 and XM-855. Also both rifles have about 150 rounds each of XM-855PD through them. it functioned fine and was just as accurate or better than the XM-193PD. SnoopisTDI I purchased 2,000rds of this last fall from Sportsmans Guide, thinking it was normal XM193. They just sat in my closet until last weekend. I didn't inspect them, but I've put about 200rds through my 20" Bushmaster V-match without any problems. I missed it through the scope, but someone said one of them was a tracer. I'd probably buy it again. mo4040 My brother and I used 4 thousand rounds (two boxes of 2k rounds) of this stuff at a recent carbine course. My brother experienced zero problems. I had only one "mystery" stoppage that happened on the first day. After about 10 rounds I experienced a failure to extract/eject...the bolt was seized. Weapon had to be butt-stroked on the ground to open the bolt. I have no idea what the cause of the stoppage was. Outside of that, both weapons ran flawlessly through all of the ammo. Only two rounds were not loaded/used because of dented cases. Good stuff and will buy again... schaferhunde I got a little over 500 rounds of this stuff of which over 100 had some sort of imperfection, of those around 20 or so I deemed unsuitable to fire. The remaining 480+ (some of which were slightly dented) fired really well. I put about 300 rounds downrange today alone and was very happy with the way things performed. That wasn't the case earlier in the week, where I had a round (the first one I fired in my weapon, since it is brand new) blow up. It somehow bent the gas tube and I couldn't fire the weapon at all. I took it back to the dealer and he exchanged out top ends for me. Things work really well now, but I probably wont use the PD version again, Just to many rounds that were dented, and going through 500 rounds individually is a real pain in the ass just to make sure they all check out visually. chevyrulez1 I bought 500 rounds from SG. It is the first ammo that I fired through my new AR-15. I have fired approximately 100 rounds of it, and have not had any major problems, but it does need to be inspected prior to use to check for dented / damaged rounds. OBird I bought 1,000 rounds of this stuff thinking it was just the same as XM193, but got pretty mad once I got home and found out what I really had. I subsequently went and hand-checked every single round for obvious defects. Out of 1,000 rounds, I found less than ten that I deemed "really unsafe looking." Some of these were REALLY bad. I also set aside some ammo for the following groups: bullets that look too far out, bullets that look too far in, and looks-almost-but-not-quite-bad-enough-to-throw-away, with about 20 or so in each group. Then I took some ammo out to the range to see how it performed. I shot ammo from the follwing catagroies: -20 rnds w/bullets that looked too far in -20 rnds w/bullets that looked too far out -20 rounds of hand-picked, perfect-looking condition ammo -20 rounds of ammo picked entirely at random -5 rounds of ammo that looked pretty bad (but not bad enough to be deemed "really unsafe looking") The result? 0 malfunctions in any group. Accuracy out of my Bushmaster 16" HBAR @ 50 yards was exactly the same as regular XM193. Checking each round individually by hand took a good hour or two, but it was worth it for the cheap price I paid. All the rounds are really shiny looking, too. If you're willing to do the work, I'd reccomend this stuff for either plinking or your ammo-ban backup supply. ColSanders Went through a case of this, no problems at all. BSTOCK Been through 3k with 3 ARs. No failures and just one round with a slightly dented neck. I will use it on the range until the Boxed XM193 price stablizes. Very satisified with it. YELLOWV Shot about 500 rds or so through my 16" Bushy M4. Had one bullet that hit the feedramp and set back into the casing causing a FTF. Not sure if it was the round itself or the new mag I was using (which had no further problems since) but I would say it was the round. This was the only FTF the rifle has ever had ruling out the rifle. My buddy aslo shot about 1000 rounds with no ammo related problems. So IMO 1 out of 1500 aint bad. That bein said I will probably shoot black hills reman. from now on. I used it on my last range outing and the stuff is great. CavReconScout I've fired over 3,000 rds to date with no problems. Rifles used were 20" A1, 14.5" CMMG A2, and 14.5" CMMG A3. I have found no shift in POA/POI between this and XM193 boxed. chrome1 I had two 500 Rd boxes in a mixed lot of ammo I bought . The first box was nice with only a few questionable rounds . The second box however , it looked like it was the reject bin with probably 25-30% showing defects . Damaged necks , dented cases , deep set bullets , you name it . Including 3 dented cases that had no bullet at all Jicky I have shot about 2000 rounds of it and haven't had any problems... I went threw and probably trashed ten or twelve rounds out of every thousand that I would'nt even think of shooting, but so far no FTF or FTE... P-245 I picked up a bulk load of 1,000 from Natchez a short while back. I inspected each and every one, shaking to ensure it was loaded, looking at each primer, eyeing the cartridge case for dents and excess waterproofing, and inspecting the bullet and case necks. I had about a 7% reject rate that I was not comfortable shooting. WolfFox I bought 1000rds a while back and inspected 500 after reading about problemssome have had. I had 4 that were rolled a little at the top of the case. Not bad but don't feel comfortable shooting them. I am going to shoot some this week or next and will update afterwards. Bushwacker85 I ordered 500 rounds from Sportsman's Guide, and hand checked them. 50 rounds of it were bad enough I didn't want to shoot, so I sent it all back. I am not going to buy it ever again. dfowler21 Ive used several thousand rounds of it. I had to go through the ammo by hand and found in general 10-15 rounds per thousand that were obviously unsuitable. I also would get 3 or 4 per thousand squib loads. A few loads seemed to be undercharged but the projectile cleared the barrel. RideandShoot I just finished sorting though a box of XM193PD and found 21 rounds with bullets that appeared to be smaller (more pointed) than the rest. I pulled one of them and weighed the bullet. 62.5g. XM855 mixed in? I'm a little concerned that it's a 62.5 gr bullet on a charge for the 55g bullet. what do you think... DK-Prof I have used several thousand rounds of it over the past few years, in both my SBR, various 16" ARs and 20" ARs. I'd usually throw out 20-30 rounds from each batch of 500 when sorting them by hand - but would still feel a somewhat lighter recoil (or less loud report) on the occasional round when fired - indicating that visual inspection is not enough to identify irregular rounds. Last week I had a squib round from an XM193PD lodge in the barrel of my SBR - about half an inch into the barrel. Luckily this prevented the next round from chambering, because had it been just a little farther into the barrel, I hate to imagine what would have happened (to my gun and my face). mike_f I bought 2, 500-round boxes of it from Sportsman's Guide and have used most of one box (less than 100 rounds left). I haven't had any problems so far. I have visually inspected every round before loading and haven't had to cull any yet. I have used it for target practice at ranges up to 100 yards. It has been fired in semi-auto AR rifles & carbines. All are "parts guns" built on Bushmaster, Olympic, Stag, Rock River, and Colt lowers. Barrels are from Colt, FN, Bushmaster, and Sabre Defence. Bolts/carriers are from Bushmaster, Fulton Armory, DPMS. VAPORTRAIL I have shot up a case of 1000, got them from Natchez. Out of the 1000, I had approx 20 rejects. Split necks, dents, and rolled case mouths. I found a few with M855 bullets also. Several rounds seemed lower powered than normal. Quieter, and less recoil, but cycled the bolt completely. I had 2 rounds that had no powder at all. The bullets stopped in the throat of the barrel. They popped right out with a tap from a cleaning rod. Overall, the accuracy wasn't too bad. About what can be expected from M193 ammo. I fired most of it from my 20" 1/12 twist home built AR. Point of impact was the same as boxed XM193, which wasn't a surprise. I don't think I will be getting any more of the 193PD. Too many issues with the case I got. Especially the under/no powered rounds I got in my case. On a bright note, I have a thousand or so once fired LC cases awaiting the Dillon. TigerStripe I have bought and used 500 rounds on XM193PD. I had about ten reject rounds out of that. Accuracy was equal to standard XM193 or Q3131A. All or these were fired through a DPMS 14.5" + Phantom M4gery. No problems. Bartholomew_Roberts Bought 2k from Natchez of XM193PD. I've shot about 500 so far and have had 3 bad loads (too underpowered to cycle the action; but did get the bullet out of the barrel) and one cartridge that was so obviously mauled it made me wonder how they managed to seat the bullet in the case like that. Accuracy has been acceptable and the price was right; I'll probably pay the extra $20-30 for Q3131A next time though. Edited to add: Up to about 700 rounds now. 10 squib/underpowered loads where the powder is not burning completely but is just left in the bottom of the barrel. 2 rounds that are visibly unsafe to use. XM193PD is now on my do not buy list. Good accuracy though from the stuff that does work. JoelK Despite all of the other threads I have had no significant problems(one round had a slightly damaged tip, it shot just fine though) with the 2000 I previously bought from Eric. In fact, with all of the shortages, I picked up another 2000 last week. huntingwriter I ordered a 500 round box of the XM193PD from Sportsmans Guide last week. This weekend, while shooting, I had a misfire that could have been catastrophic. It sounded like the hammer fell on a spent primer, so I waited a couple of seconds then cleared the chamber and tried to reload. Fortunately, I wasn't able to. Upon inspection, I found the bullet had lodged in the barrel just past the chamber, but not far enough in that it would allow another round to chamber. I wasn't able to discern which casing it was from, so I couldn't tell if it had powder failure, no powder, etc... My box has a mix of headstamps ranging from 01-03. I shot 30 rounds or so and that was the only problem I had. It could have been much worse, but it was still frightning. I'm not sure I'd order the loose ammo again. Bushmaster 16-inch Carbine |
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Zhukov- A couple of corrections to Troy's FAQ posted on this thread: "Due to the drastic increase in ammo usage with the WoT, Winchester/Olin, the only other company with the loading machines to make mil-spec ammo, has been given a contract for a few million rounds of ammo." Comment: The contract was awarded to General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems (GDOTS), who built a team of mil-spec ammunition producers consisting of Olin Winchester, IMI, SNC, Santa Barbara and Taiwan. This base year with options contract specifies annual quantities between 0 (yes, zero) and 500 million rounds per year of 5.56mm, 7.62mm and .50 cal ammunition. They are at about 250/300 million for this (first) year, I believe. Side note #1: ATK also bid on this second source small caliber ammunition contract (developing their own team of mil-spec producers) and protested when GDOTS was awarded the contract. They subsequently withdrew their protest. Side note #2: Additionally, prior to this second source contract, both Olin Winchester and IMI received contracts to each produce 70 million rounds of mil-spec M855 in commercial packs to supplement LC. "ATK chose Federal to run Lake City, and thus, the "Federal XMxxx" loads were born." Comment: ATK, directly, runs LCAAP (in addition to Radford Army Ammunition Plant). Federal does not play in running the plant. An ATK VP is in charge of production at the plant. Link. It is correct that there is no "surplus" ammo; Lake City only produces that ammunition the Government funds. The Government only pays for and accepts "Grade 1" ammunition; ATK has to "eat" the rejected ammo, hence they recoup their loss by selling us XM and XM-PD ammo. LCAAP began producing small caliber ammunition in 1941. Remington Arms ran the plant from 1941 through 1985, except for the inter-war period, about 1946-50, when it was shut down and then restarted for the Korean War. Olin-Winchester ran the plant from 1985-99; then ATK picked up operations in 1999. Information link. |
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Home-built carbine: 16" Model1 Upper, DPMS lower Approx 3000 rounds of XM193PD fired Every round I chambered fired fine. I'd estimate a couple dozen FTE's and a dozen FTF's, but I am willing to attribute that to early tuning/setup of my rifle. Visual inspection of unfired rounds yeilded none I'd reject outright. Magnet inspection yeilded approx 3% as containing steel - presumable some XM855 that fell in. These were culled (since some ranges do a magnet check), and of those fired, they worked just as well. Availability is dropping and price is climbing. I'd buy more otherwise. |
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I bought 2k from SG.... I had at least a 1/2 dozen squibs in the 1st box of 500! More than a little disconcerting to someone brand new to ARs. I then took to weighing each and every round remaining on a little digital scale. Anything between 177 and 181 grains is acceptable to me... I have found several weighing as little as 148 grains with NO powder in them! I lose approx 10% out of each box of 500. I may buy it again if the price is right. |
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Just finished my first 500rd of XM193PD from SG. I personally checked each one before loading them into my mags. I picked out about 20 questionable rounds, and had 1 FTF and 0 dud. Didn't care to find out why it didn't feed. I guess next time I'll get a scale too. where do I buy it? |
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