AR Sponsor
Posted: 12/31/2004 10:20:20 AM EDT
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With cost being no object, would you choose a 9mm AR or an HK-94? BTW, as the post title indicates, the HK-94 is a civilian version of the MP-5 with a 16" bbl. The reason I raise the question is because I have an HK-94. I like it and it has served me well but I've been thinking about switching over to a 9mm AR for quite a while. The main reason being that I would like to have the same manual of arms for all my semi-auto rifles. Also, mounting a red dot on the HK-94 is not quite as easy as it is on an AR and because of the way the HK-94 functions, you cannot mount a red-dot as forward as you can on an AR. It's also a PITA to clean compared to an AR. If you've cleaned an HK rifle (MP-5, HK-91/93/94), you know what I'm talking about. HK parts are also more difficult to find and more expensive then for the 9mm AR. The main reason I've held onto my HK-94 is because it's so darn reliable. 2500 rnds with only 3 FTF because of ammo (never used that ammo again). I've got tons of of mags for it as well as an RAS. Now, as far as a 9mm AR goes, I've been a little trepidatious about getting one because of the work they can sometimes take to function reliably. IMHO (and please don't take offense to this), a 9mm AR is a bastardization of the 5.56 AR - a 9mm is an afterthought. That being said, the very fact that an AR can be made of modified for a variety of calibers is a testament to its flexibility. The bottom line is I don't have the same faith in the reliability of a 9mm AR as I do with the HK-94. For the record, I shoot my guns to have fun, relax and be prepared. But, above all else, I demand reliability from all my firearms and I do not want to spend time getting something to work. My range time is far too limited to be tinkering and not shooting. And for any one who might say "get both" I would say I don't need both. Thanks in advance. |
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OK I'll be the first - Get Both! I say that because like AR9mm said - The HK is better in some ways and much worse in others. I like the AR 9mm because it eats reloads just fine - even cast loads if the ammo is tailored to a rifle length barrel. It also does not destroy the brass like some guns. Shooting cast bullets in an HK is a hard lesson that too many learned the hard way. Either way - eventually I'd pay the stamp and chop it down as a qute SBR like a good pistol caliber should be. |
Well, as I stated in my initial post, that is just not an option. I have to get a .308 semi-auto first, that's for sure.
That's something I never do. All my firearms, save my bolt action, are fed a steady diet of FMJ.
I really appreciate the response ProfGAB101 but I just wanted to elaborate as to why none of the reasons that you mentioned for owning an AR 9mm are applicable to me. I have read plenty of posts here in which people are perfectly happy with their 9mm ARs and I say more power to them. I love my ARs and want to warm up to a 9mm version but I have yet to read undeniable proof that a 9mm AR is better (based upon my needs) then an HK-94. If someone built a 9mm AR from the ground up instead of modifying the existing design, I would probably sell my HK-94 in a heart beat. |
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BTW, if you're going to vote in the poll, I would sincerely appreciate it if you would chime with a post as to why you voted the way you did. 12 people have voted but only 2 have responded. Also, for what it's worth, choosing the HK-94 can also mean you would choose to get an HK-94 style sub gun such as the ones offered by ORF. |
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Dude, forget what we think get what YOU want. Life is way to short, get what is going to make you happy. Ask anybody that knows me, when we have our big Black Rifle shoots here in VA I bring my black rifles, machineguns, suppressed pistols and such. But I always bring my first love, CAR's...that's right Cowboy Assault Rifles, good ole lever action 45LC and 45-70 fun. I enjoy shooting my AR's but there is something about a 10 pound octogon barreled 45-70 that get's me going. Why do I bring them? Becasue it makes me happy. The last Black Rifle shoot we had in VA, I think I shoot my Uzi a few times with the 22lr kit and I think I put 200 rounds down range with my 1866 winchester. Next time, I may just shoot my M16 or maybe my wife's 50AE Sledgehammer, or maybe the Beowulf...who knows...but if I thought a HK94 would bring me joy, I'd have one......and most likely get one from Todd at ORF. Steve. |
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Thank for the response Steve but perhaps you're missing the point of my post. Most folks (as far as I can tell) get 9mm ARs for a variety of reasons: - Typically cheaper to shoot the 5.56 ARs - Can be used at indoor ranges where high velocity rifle rounds are not allowed. - For use in sub gun matches. - For dedicated use with supressors. Both the HK style 9mm and the AR style 9mm have pros and cons but, the most important thing to me is reliability. I have yet to read or hear undeniable evidence that a 9mm AR is as reliable as an HK 9mm. AR-9mm's post is exactly the type of response I was hoping to get. Believe me, I'm not expecting nor am I looking for anyone to tell me what I should get. When I purchase a firearm, I research it by gathering facts and opinions on it. Once that is done, I consider all the data based upon my needs which leads me to making a purchase that I will more likely than not be happy with it. Perhaps I'm beating a dead horse here. Despite any of the HK-94's shortcomings or any of the 9mm AR's advantages, the HK-94 is still the superior subgun. |
Subguns and suppressors in Illinois.....don't think so. The HK-94 is a great 9mm carbine, so is a AR6540, one advantage of a AR9mm setup the HK will never have..when your tired of shooting 9mm...it can be a 5.56, 50AE, 50 Beowulf, etc etc... Here is what I use as a 9mm subgun upper: 
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Perhaps I applied the term "subgun" too loosely. Any carbine that fires a pistol caliber round is a subgun in my book. If you're shooting in a subgun match, a semi-auto 9mm carbine with a 16" bbl will do fine. I did not mean to imply "sub machine guns" All the reasons I listed as to why I think most folks get a 9mm AR do not necessarily apply to me. Rest assured, I am intimately familiar with the draconian gun laws of my "fine" state and now what I can and cannot own. It's actually pretty simple - I can have an AOW and that's it. Full-auto, SBRs, SBS, and Destructive Devices are all verbotaen.
I agree and mentioned the AR platforms multi-caliber versatility in my original post but for me, that's not an advantage I will exercise. I don't swap uppers. Every upper gets a lower for a complete rifle. |
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Easy decision, but first an explanation of my vote: I voted HK because I personally have a burning desire to own an HK94 and they aren't getting more plentiful. I'll have a 9mm AR long before I have an HK94, though, because I can build one on top of an existing AR and I don't have to worry much about parts availability. So here's why it's such an easy decision for you: You already have the HK. You'd be nuts to get rid of it. You've already declared that it's a great gun and has served you well. So all you have to do now is start building another carbine on an AR platform. |
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I have fired both and hands down prefer the 9mm AR as I feel the ergonomics and controls are far better (at least for me), plus the 9mm AR is a HELL of a lot easier to clean then those Godforsaken HK locking rollers! Optics and accessories, not to mention spare parts are not only more available and cheaper, and the optics mounting situation is far superior on the AR platform. Plus, you can use the accessories on your other ARs on the 9mm one quite easily. Finally, IMHO the 9mm AR looks better with a 16" barrel than an HK94 does. And yes, having the AR manual of arms is a huge plus in my book, that is why I got a 9mm AR even though I already have an Uzi. I did have an HK clone but no longer. [edited] Matt, I thought AOW's were a no-no here in IL? You mean I can get an SP89 and pay the tax to put on a VFG? Don't tease me like that! |
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Hey Dawg, I remember when you had your HK clone. Didn't you have a few problems with it? And you recently bought an RRA 9mm but have you got it up and running? Just curious. I agree wiht all the points you brought comparing the HK to the AR though ergonomics aren't really an issue for me. Both feel fine. The one thing you didn't touch upon regarding the two is reliability. And again, I do not want to have to tinker with a firearm to get it working reliably. I also don't have a problem with the 16" bbl HK since I just slipped a bbl shroud over it. Regarding AOWs in Illinois, they are still legal as far as I know. NFA Laws by State. If nothing else, you would find it if they were legal or not when you tried to get a CLEO sig on the Form 4. I too have lusted after a SP-89 > MP-5K but have not wanted to shell out the $3K+ for a genuine SP-89. I'm crossing my fingers that the BW-89 will be good. |
Ditto on the BW-89 being good- that would make for a fun gun! The HK clone didn't work for me personally with the ergonomics, but I know a lot of people who like the ergos on them, and yeah a barrel shroud makes them look a shit ton better. Yeah, my HK94 clone never ran right- some problems with FTE's about everey 5-6 rounds due to an out of spec receiver, specifically the magwell. Got a full refund and used the money to geta preban AR when it looked like IL was gettting a state level AWB. Yes, I got a Vector Uzi about 8 months ago and about 4 weeks ago finally got my 9mm AR all together. I am running a RRA A3 CAR length upper (no-ban of course) with a VM Hytech mag block. Works great and I can share Uzi mags between both guns, so I just load them all up and decide what I am shooting when I get to the range. I did have to tweak the Uzi mag folloers to get the last round to strip (wouldn't feed from any of the mags, probably due to mag block/lower/upper/mag tolerances and interface) but it literally takes 2 minutes a mag and they still work in both guns. If you buy the $35 mags from RRA that are notched supposedly they have already adjusted the follower for you, but I prefer to just pay the $13 per mag and do it myself. Only about 1 in 3 guns needs this adjustment done from what I have gathered from reading posts on 9mm RRA uppers. Most run fine out of the box. Although many people want the bolt hold open and standard mag catch button I like the VM Hytech block as I can keep the same manual of arms with the Uzi mags. I have never accidentally tried to press the .223 mag release, and the block fits snug enough that I couldn't easily depress it (gotta split the upper and lower, insert the block, and pin them closed and there is NO play). I automatically reach for the left side button when using those narrow stick mags. I expect my marksmanship will get better with the AR series as I can now practice in the winter, not to mention 9mm ammo is cheaper than .223. The recoil is very similar too thanks to the blowback action, a lot better than using a .22 kit. I really dig the 9mm AR, and if you happen to get up this way ever you are more than welcome to try it out (or maybe I can make a trip down to Normal). Dawg |
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I've owned both, and the only one I still have is the 9mm AR. As far as reliability is concerned, you need to compare apples to apples. If you compare the HK94 with HK magazines, to a COLT 9mm AR with COLT magazines, the AR is just as reliable. I liked the HK94 because of the cheek weld, the smoothness of the action, and the factory iron sights. I hated the fact that it did not have a last round bolt hold open feature. I like the Colt 9mm AR because of the common manual of arms, common construction, and the last round bolt hold open feature. Mounting optics (Aimpoint) to the factory configured rifles is a toss up. A goose neck mount works great for the Colt, and a B&T low mount works great for the HK. I didn't need to 9mm carbines either, and I chose the AR. YMMV 
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Ok, time for some responses. Dawg180, I will have to figure out a way we can hook up sometime. I'd be interested in shooting your RRA 9mm that's for sure and getting a closer look. I have yet to see a 9mm AR in person. Hopefully I have a gun or two you want to try as well. Blamm0, if I end up with a 9mm AR, the HK will get sold. I don't buy to collect, I by to shoot. Each firearm I own has a purpose and I have not need for more than one 9mm carbine. So call me nuts for thinking about selling an HK but I'm a pretty practical guy. coltshorty14, I agree with Dawg180 that 9mm AR mags are less expensive than MP5 mags unless you're referring to genuine Colt mags but now that the ban has sunset, they should be about the same price. Rabbit9, you bring up a good point regarding "apples to apples". Considering what I could get for the HK-94 and all it's related accessories, I could easily afford to get a Colt 9mm -but I have yet to see a flat top Colt 9mm. I could possibly find a Colt 9mm lower then get an RRA upper or I could just get a new flat top upper receiver and replace it but, that seems a little bass-ackwards. Regarding the lack of "last round bolt lock" feature on the HK, I have to problem with that except for the manual of arms variations it represents. But, considering that the manual of arms is different between the HK and AR anyway, it's a moot point in the big picture. I've actually got a B&T mount on my HK-94 right now but as you know, because of the way the HK is set up, you're limited as to how far forward you can place a red dot. SERE1, I agree that a 9mm AR is more versatile overall, I only need a 9mm AR to be one thing - a 9mm AR so that's not a factor in my equation. As far as reliability being achievable with a 9mm AR, I know it is but reliability is not something I want to work towards to achieve. I want it out of the box. No time or desire to tinker. Finally. I know the DOE used 9mm ARs at some point but I would bet that they're using 5.56 ARs now. As far as LEOs go, I'd bet that besides shotguns, most of them are either using MP-5s or M-4s. I could be completely off base on both counts but either way, what they're using doesn't matter to me. BTW, I appreciate everyone contributing to this thread in an informative and civil manner. Keep it up. This is cool. |
I am refering to Colt mags.. I have heard reliablity issues regarding Uzi mags, and the BHO feature doesnt work with the uzi mags either.. With all of that, If you whant a 9mm Carbine, and wish to buy Uzi mags for it, you might as well buy a Uzi.. As far as the prce coming down, it should be, but it isn'nt due to Colt's wise buisness decisions.. The Colt mag should only Cost around $40 brand new, but those that have them are getting $70-85 a peice.. I love my AR 6450, but it is just gonna be a plinker/safe queen.. Loading that one 32 rounder, then dumping it is a bitch.. For some serious down and dirty 9mm carbine fun, I may pick up a Vector Uzi, I am also keeping a eye on ORF's 94 clone, good mags can be had cheap for it too.. But out of all three, and I have played with all three, I like the AR 9mm the best.. |
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Matt, It sounds like you’ve given this some thought and I think you’ve done a good job at comparing the two guns. Some of the advantages of the AR, as you’ve said, are ease of maintenance, great ergonomics and a compatible manual of arms with your other AR’s, so your only remaining question is whether or not the 9mm AR’s can be as reliable as your HK. In my experience, the answer is yes, but with some qualifiers. As you’ve already said, the HK is a “built from the ground up” 9mm carbine, so we should expect it to work pretty well. The 9mm AR, on the other hand, is an adaptation of an existing design and so the potential for something being “not quite right” is greater. Here’s where you need to start to compare apples to apples. The vast majority of HK style guns are HK manufactured guns, so you tend to hear how well they work. The same can not be said of 9mm AR’s, at least lately. I doubt you include the talk about the SW HK clones in your opinion of the reliability of the 9mm HK’s, right? Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on your prospective, LOTS of manufacturers make 9mm AR’s and AR parts, with varying degrees of success. Not only is there a huge potential for these after-market parts to fit, or more importantly not fit, any number of companies AR receivers, but add in to the mix the fact that a lot of folks are adapting other guns magazines to the platform and is it any wonder you read a lot of posts from people trying to get the thing to work? Please don’t take this as a slam on all those parts guns out there, they can work great and the AR is an incredibly adaptable gun. To many people, being able to swap parts to end up with a “new” gun is a big part of the allure of the platform in the first place and if they need to tinker a little to get it work, so be it. But not everyone is a gunsmith, not everyone understands how these things work and even the most knowledgeable individual may end up struggling with parts that are all made to varying tolerances from any number of manufacturers. This being the case, there are a lot of posts concerning the reliability of the 9mm AR and that can leave the impression the gun itself is problematic. Fortunately, this doesn’t have to be so. It’s rare to read a post from someone with a Colt factory 9mm having anything in the way of feed problems. Rarer still if they’re using factory mags. It can happen, and the gun itself does have some issues you may want to deal with (more on that in a minute), but as built by Colt the 9mm AR can be, and is, an utterly reliable weapon at least as good as the HK. How? First, last and always is the use of factory mags. Other mags can work, since the Colt magazine really is a modified UZI design (which itself is a copy of the old Beretta design), but if you want the gun to be reliable out of the box, your best bet is to buy Colt factory mags. If you buy them used, and you probably will because of the expense or availability, then spend a few dollars and get new Wolf mag springs for them. The only issue I’ve ever had with a Colt magazine was immediately and permanently resolved with the swapping of the tired old spring for a new Wolf spring. The next biggest issue is with the mag blocks. In order for these to be “drop in” parts with the vast majority of receivers, tolerances are, well, to be nice lets just say broad. Since you say you’re willing to dedicate a lower to the upper, go for the pinned in blocks. This eliminates almost every problem not fixed by using factory magazines. Feeding is controlled by the block, as is ejection, two pretty important functions, right? And yet this critical piece of the reliability puzzle comes, once again, from multiple manufactures in several styles to fit in any manufacturers lower. Probably your best bet here is to go with a Colt 9mm lower, although my own gun is a Bushmaster with pinned in blocks (the older two piece style, the new ones, even from Colt, are all one piece, I think). My own gun is the more or less permanent home for my RDIAS and its performance is nothing short of perfect. I’ve run something better than ten thousand rounds through it on full auto and the only problem I’ve ever had was with the afore mentioned magazine, fixed with a new spring. While I’ve used factory ammo on rare occasions, the vast majority of this has been my reloads, which are put together with economy as the overriding factor. That’s not to say I’m sloppy about it, but whatever bullet is on sale is the one that ends up going down the pipe. So far, they all work. I mentioned the gun having certain issues, and it does. The geometry of the bolt is such that it does tend to be hard on the FCG. This manifests itself in the form of “trigger slap” and can be an issue with the guns in full auto. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of this being a problem in the semi’s, but it could happen and you can tell, even if you don’t feel it, by keeping an eye on the disconnector. If it ever shows signs of being impacted by the hammer (a shinny spot on the top of the disconnector) then you have trigger slap. It can be addressed in two ways. One is to change out the hammer spring periodically. This is a quick and inexpensive fix if your comfortable taking the gun apart, but it’s not a long-term solution. The other way is to get your bolt “ramped”, which is a process where by the underside of the bolt is reshaped to replicate that of a standard AR carrier. Several smiths do this, some of whom frequent this board, and it might run you in excess of $100.00 to get it done, depending on who’s doing the work. Most people will tell you it’s not worth it for a semi, but if you do end up having an issue it’s a real fix. Colt was aware of the problem, which can also show up as broken hammer/trigger pins. Colt’s answer to this was to make stronger, stainless steel pins. These come standard on the factory guns (smg’s at least), but I feel they are a good idea for anyone running the Colt style of upper. The danger here is that when a pin breaks, it’s not at all uncommon for the gun to continue to work. The user only becomes aware of the problem when the broken pins begin to either work themselves out of the gun or to damage the pinholes in the receiver or both. Considering the cost of the stainless pins (about $15.00) it’s cheap insurance to get a set and install them. That’s about it for any problems with the gun. I’ve talked a lot about parts swapping being the root cause of most of the problems with the gun, but this also reflects another advantage to the AR, the fact that it’s a living platform. By that I mean there are a huge number of manufacturers working on building parts and accessories for the gun because there is such a huge market for them. The same can not be said of the HK 9 series, which is essential a dead platform with little to no manufacturer support or development. Yes, there are a couple of companies building clones, parts can still be found if you’re willing to pay the price and new accessories do come out for the HK’s now and then. But the AR market is huge in comparison to the HK market, and so the development of new “stuff” for the AR is likely to continue into the future, even as it declines for the HK. Just something else to consider. |
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I have owned an H&K 94, and I loved it, it was a wonderful little carbine that worked 100% for me. It was light weight and very handy. When I bought it used, way back when, it cost me around $800.00 and that was with both Bttstocks, Barrel Shroud, Sling, H&K Scope mount and ARMS Scope mount and 15 Mags and a couplee of mag pouches. Man, I wish I had that rifle now, BUT when the Ban came along I was offered so much for it, I almost had a heart-attack. I don't consider the Bolt hold-Open after the last shot a problem, IN FACT in a survival situation, I don't alway's want it, especially if Up-Close, I do't want an adversary to know I'm out and my bolt is open. I've shot, but not owned several Clt 9mm's and never had any problem's with any of them. And I would not turn my nose up at them either, they are great. My neighbor, a couple of houses down the street just put together a 9mm using mostly RRA stuff, and after playing with some of the mags, it work's 100%. I currently have 2 Oly Arms 9mm's, one Flattop Upper & one A2 Upper. I personally like the Flattop because I think the A2 is too much "toy" for the 9mm cartridge itself. Both have dedicated Lower halves and KKF Magwell Blocks, and I bought ALOT of $3.99 Sten mags from CDNN, that I bought 20 at a time for less then $100.00 with UPS 2-day deliverery. I really like the Oly setup and both of these things just have an amazing appetite and ability to digest EVERYTHING. One thing about the Oly Arms setup is the ability to take-out the magwell block and remove the upper, and then put on an M4 Upper Assembly and 30 round AR mag and start shooting 556 right away. I think that they all have their good points, and it all comes down to your personal want's and desires. I like the fact that by using the AR style Rifle's the controls and fit are all the same, regardless of caliber. And right now I'm considering whether or not to sell off the A2 9mm Oly Upper/Magwell filler/Oly Set-Screw Muzzle Brake and @ 20 Sten Mag's. this would be to fund another AR project. Chief 
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Matt_B, Yeah, we definitely have to get some range time...I wouldl like to try out that real HK! As to what you are looking for, I think there is a very obvious and simple solution. If you want the same manual of arms and 100% reliability, then definitely go with an actual Colt 9mm with Colt mags. Expensive, but you are selling a $3500 gun to fund it so you should have plenty of money left over. I went RRA and various other pieces as money was an issue and I didn't mind tinkering a bit. If you deicde you really want a flattop, you could always have the upper receiver swapped with a RRA flattop 9mm upper- just send it somehwere like ADCO and it could be gone and back within a week. |
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I own both....and have used both for years. My H&K is a Mp-5A3. My Colt is a CAR-15 R6450, that is about to be SBR'd as soon as I get the approval from ATF. Main reason I chose the H&K is simple. Reliability. It works...damn near every time....I have seen MAYBE 2 jams in tens of thousands of rounds. The weakness of the Colt system is the magazines. Ever drop a loaded Colt 9mm mag? The term Golden shower comes to mind as the loaded rounds arc out of the mag all over the ground. Drop an H&K mag and you simply get a mark on the mag. A second reason is the H&K is MUCH SMALLER than the Colt. SBR a H&K and a Colt, and put them side by side. It is MUCH easier moving in tight spaces with the H&K. A third reason - H&K OWNS the 9mm SMG market. Why do you think Colt offers little or no support on the 9mm side. Colt refuses to sell 9mm mags to civillians even after the mag ban was phased out. Both Colt and H&K offer very flexible platforms. With the H&K you can mount a fixed stock, end cap (no stock - with BATF approval), retractable stock, install picatinny rail mounts on the handgaurds (available from DSA - Bruegger & Thomet), Low profile Aimpoint mounts, etc. Same thing can be done with a Colt. Colt could make their platform more inviting IF they started making flat-top carbines. Sad thing is that Colt does not listen to the civillian sector. My Choice is simple....H&K. I love my Colt....But I REALLY love my Mp-5. |
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Wow, you guys are making some greats posts. I really appreciate it. Beowulf, you bring up some really good points in your post regarding reliability, specifically with a Colt 9mm AR. If I decide to make the switch, I will probably go for a Colt though magazine availability makes me a bit nervous. I think I know someone that could hook me up with some but I'll have to a make a phone call to be sure. I tend to want to have a good quantity of mags for my rifles and I don't like to mess around trying to get them. If I'm going to go for a Colt 9mm AR, I definitely want the BHO feature just to keep things consistent with my regular ARs. Also, thanks for the info on the trigger slap problem. Bwood, you stated in your post that the MP-5 will be shorter than an SBR Colt 9mm AR but I think I'm a little confused here. If both rifles have the same bbl length and have their stocks fully extended they should be pretty darn close to the same length, right? I know that the LEO 9mm AR(don't recall the exact model # at this time) have a 10.5'' whereas the MP-5 has a 8" bbl. I do know that with the stocks fully collapsed on both rifles, the MP-5 is more compact, all other things being equal of course. And actually, one thing I don't like about the MP-5 is the fact that the collapsible stocks only have 2 positions - fully retracted or fully extended (but I've got a mickey moused work around for that  ). That's another reason why I like a 9mm AR - I could slap a Magpul stock on it. Regardless, I cannot have an SBR in my lovely state so SBR factor will not be factored into my buying decision. Regarding things like mounting optics and rail systems on an MP-5, I actually have a B&T railed fore end and a B&T optic mount (with a Docter Optic red dot) on my HK-94 right now. I even went so far as to swap the original HK-94 trigger pack (which I still have) with an newer FBI trigger pack. As with most of my military-type rifles, I've done a few mods to them. You really caught my attention Bwood when you mentioned the "brass shower" situation with Colt mags. I vaguely recall reading about this before but had forgotten about it. While not a major issue for, it still seems worth considering that. Is this a common problem with all Colt 9mm mags? Is it a design flaw of some sort? One other thing I should consider in my decision is servicing them. I know that replacing an HK bbl is not as easy as replacing an AR bbl. While I don't expect to wear out my HK bbl any time soon, when I do have to get it replaced, it will not be cheap to do (compared to an AR) and it will take considerably longer to do then an AR. I really hate sending rifles off to a 'smith for months and months. Dawg180, we will definitely hook up and you will be able to get some trigger time on my HK. Even if I decide to sell it and get a 9mm AR, it won't be for at least a few months. I will send you an IM in the near future so we can plan things out. For kicks, I whipped up a spreadsheet to figure out how much all my HK-94 and all it's related accessories are worth as well has approximately how much an fully outfitted Colt 9mm AR will fun. The way I figure it, all my HK stuff is worth about $5400 on the open market and a Colt 9mm AR with everything I want will run about $4000. If anyone's interested, I can post the data and for the record, I'm wouldn't be doing that for sales purposes. Finally, I have to say it again. This thread is working out really well. It's nice for a change to have a friendly and civil exchange of opinions, experiences and information on these boards. Too many "this rifle or that rifle" threads degenerate into pissing contests. |
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My Mp-5 is about 26" with the stock extended. The Colt CAR-15 is about 25 1/2" with the stock retracted the full way. The H&K is definately more compact. To top it off, I can make the Mp-5 even shorter by totally removing the stock...and putting on the end cap only....now we are talking MUCH shorter...and much more concealable. The Mp-5 barrel is typically 8.85" long....almost 9" so very close to the same. One thing I love about HK barrels is the 3 lug...makes snapping on suppressors a breeze. HOT TIP....have your Colt 9mm SMG adapted to this.....you can use the H&K flash suppressor, and take it off easily to put on a suppressor. The Colt mags are VERY WEAK compared to the HK. I have dropped a Colt mag during an excercise only to have to grab another one as I watched the rounds arc out of the mag. Colt modeled their mags after a 9mm Beretta SMG mag if memory serves me correctly. They should have just modeled it after the UZI and had UZI make the mags. Problem solved. That can still be done with modifications to the mag well, or magazines. The Colt carbine would be well served it someone adapted it to say Sig Sauer, Glock, or Beretta pistol mags if possible. Can you imagine that...a patrol carbine using the same pistol mag that the officer carries on their belts already. I know it is done already...but NOT in a major weapons system such as the Colt or H&K. Like I said...I love both...but if I were to grab JUST one...it would be the H&K every time. I also would just as quickly pick my Colt M4 if the situation required a more powerful gun. B Wood |
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Matt, I can only speak to the older style Colt mags with the metal follower, but yes, it’s a design flaw. Leave it to Colt to take a great mag (Beretta/Uzi) and turn it in to a mediocre mag. With that said, I think the issue is somewhat overblown. I have 25 32rd and 5 20rd mags for my Colt and have done my own admittedly limited drop testing. For comparison I’ve done the same with my UZI mags. Dropped from about waste high, it’s unusual not to loose a few rounds from the Colt mags, although it’s usually just a couple. I’ve never had a mag completely unload on me. I’ve done this with used mags that clearly have a high round count and I’ve done it with mags that I’ve just changed the spring out for a brand new Wolf spring and the results are the same, so I figure it’s the mag itself that has the problem. The UZI mags rarely loose any, but the first round in the mag often starts out and stops before actually popping. In any case, while it’s not exactly a confidence builder I’ve never seen this as a reliability issue, since once in the gun the mags work fine. I think it’s a bad idea to drop a mag, any mag, and then just pick it up and stuff it in the gun. Considering all the things that can happen to a mag hitting the ground, while you may get lucky, your at least as likely to turn what could just be a slow mag change into a jammed gun. Just FYI. And don’t forget, since a good man with an AR will always be faster than a good man with an HK on a reload, you can just take the time to do it right and not drop your mag in the first place. Your point about doing your own maintenance can’t be overstated. In addition to general parts availability and cost, the ability to do the work yourself saves you not only money but time, maybe lots of it. In the case of HK smiths, this could easily be in excess of a year. I like working on my own guns and my ability to do so is almost always a consideration in the purchase of a new gun. But even if you don’t, the turnaround time for AR work at even the most well known AR guru is significantly less then on the HK side. Down the road, should you decide to change the configuration of your gun, it’s a non-issue with the Colt, since parts generally mix and match. With the HK you’ve pretty much got what you got. BWood's example of HK’s three lug for a suppressor is a good one. While you can put this on a Colt (yourself, at home) your options with the HK pretty much stop there. With the Colt, on the other hand, you also have the option of popping out two pins and mounting one of a couple of dedicated, suppressed uppers. Generally quieter than a muzzle can, this also gives you the option of using a barrel that bleeds gas from the tube, slowing the bullet down to subsonic without the need for special ammo. You can have an MP5 converted to the SD, if you’ve got the time and money, but your not going to be doing that every time the mood strikes. While you’ve said you don’t have this as an option in your current state of residence, this adaptability applies across the board. Doing the switch to a flattop receiver, as an example, would be a snap. The adjustable stock option on the AR means you can shoot comfortably wearing anything form a T-shirt to a parka with just a quick flip of the wrist. Once again, with the HK you’ve got what you’ve got. Your HK is undeniably a world class gun, reliable and reasonably durable. The same thing can be said of the AR, with the added benefit of cheaper parts and more accessories, with more coming out every day. Your ability to adapt the gun to these options yourself, without the need to send it out, is just icing on the cake. |
I've got both a presample MP5 and a post-sample Oly M16/9. I find myself shooting the AR most of the time, but keep the MP5 around for sex-appeal and rentals. Both guns mount suppressors easily, slight nod to the MP5 for their excellent 3-lug mounting system. I far prefer the ergonomics of the M16/9, and its commonality with my other M16/AR rifles, although there's nothing BAD about the MP5's ergos - just a personal preference. For variety and simplicity of mounting additional gadgets and optics, it's hard to beat the M16. With a full stock, the MP5 and M16 are about tied for comfort, length of pull and cheek weld, and a slight edge on a more comfortable sling mounting system to the MP5. With a collapsing stock, although the MP5 looks super, I prefer the feel, cheek weld and adjustability of an M16 6-pos telestock. The sling moint point on an MP5 collapsible is awkward, and the rear clip often won't lay down on mine, interfering with my cheek weld and sight picture. Functionally, the M16/9 is more versatile, and feeds, fires and extracts more reliably than my MP5, especially with heavy, subsonic rounds, which beat the crap out of the MP5 extractor. If you stick to 124gr NATO FMJ, though, both are extremely reliable, with perhaps a slight edge in overall reliability to the MP5 - mostly due to a superb mag design. With known-good sten mags, the M16/9 is 100%, though. HK makes a damn fine magazine for the MP5, and due to its double-feed design, it's quicker and easier to load than the single-feed sten magazine. Sten mags are dirt cheap and completely indestructuble compared to MP5 mags, and even now, after the ban, they're much easier to find, especially in quantity. I've got 25 or 30 MP5 mags, and several hundred sten mags, so it's marginally easier to keep a couple .50 cans full of sten mags loaded and ready for the range than doing the same for the MP5. Sten mags can vary greatly in condition/quality, so unlike the MP5 mags it's sometimes necessary to pick over sten mags for the best ones, and test them in the M16/9 to ensure reliability. Aftermarket MP5 mags generally suck for anything but range work, and have been known to perform the golden shower, which neither factory HK mags, or sten mags will ever do. In the end, for me, it comes down to ergonomics and economics (which aren't supposed to count for purposes of this poll) which make the M16/9 setup I've got preferred to my MP5. I wouldn't bother with a 16" HK94 or 16" semi AR 9mm, though, so had to relate my experience between their full auto, short barrelled counterparts. |
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Well, you guys have pretty much convinced me that I can get a Colt 9mm AR (w/factory mags) to be just as reliable as the MP-5/HK-94. I'm leaning very heavily towards getting a Colt 9mm AR. With that being said, I'm concerned about 2 things now. First, it seems that NIB Colt 9mm ARs are going to be difficult to come by. From what I have read, Colt isn't making another production run of them until November of this year. And yes, I saw that someone on the EE has 2 NIB up for sale but I can't afford to drop that much cash right now (I've got a really sick pet I'm getting chemo for), at least now without selling my HK-94 first which would take a wee bit to sell. After thinking about it, I really don't mind if the 9mm AR I get is an A2. I'm going to have a FF RAS installed on it anyway so I can mount an Aimpoint right on the RAS. My second concern is mags. I know they pop up used from time to time but I'm wondering how easy they are to come by new now. I know Colt is only selling 6450s after receiving letters on dept. letterhead. In other words, the dealer has to prove that the rifle is being sold to an LEO or military personnel. I'm wondering if this is going to be a problem with mags as well. I doubt but it's a question I have to find an answer to. I'm only looking to get around 19 mags initially but I would really like to just buy that all at once and be done with it. I will have to get at least 5 additional mags when I purchase the Colt or I won't be able to sleep at night. There's also the question of mag availability in general. Finally, I was thinking about looking into whether ADCO would build me an RRA 9mm that would exactly the same as the Colt. In other words, it would have the BHO feature and could use Colt mags. I know the RRA 9mm is a copy of the Colt so I'm betting it's possible. Because of the way the MP-5/HK-94 charging handle is positioned on the forward portion of the gun, the BHO feature is not important to me. But, with the way the charging handle is positioned on the AR, I definitely want the BHO feature. The upside of buying a complete hand-built RRA 9mm would be that it should work reliably right out of the box. In the short term, I know I would be happy to stick with my HK-94. But, in the long term, I know the AR would be easier, quicker and cheaper to maintain. |
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Matt, Your concern about the mags is absolutely legitimate. For myself, I wasn’t so concerned with NIB mags as long as they were in good condition. They’re steel tubes and not much can go wrong with them. The followers are unique but the springs, which are the only part of the mag likely to wear out, are available new from Wolf. I got mine by keeping an eye on the various sale boards and it ended up taking about eight months to get what I consider to be a lifetime supply at a price I could live with. I then bought a like number of new springs form Wolf and called it good. With the expiration of the AWB, I think your chances of finding NIB mags are better then mine were when I was looking (late 90’s), if you’re willing to be patient and buy when the opportunity presents itself. That said, I understand your desire to buy en masse and be done with it. When I decided I wanted a 9mm AR I didn’t even look at the factory Colt guns. The pin and hole size issues, along with the sear block meant it wasn’t even an option as far as I was concerned. My gun is a Bushmaster lower with pinned in blocks with a Colt SMG upper I picked up at a gunshow. As I’ve said, the gun runs flawlessly, so I’m sure an RRA built by someone that knows what they’re doing would be as good, if not better, than a factory Colt. Since you can use any upper for the build, you can pick that when the time comes. This all leads to yet another option for you. Because you can put any upper on any lower, you could piece the entire gun together, if you’re patient. This would allow you to spread out the cost of the gun over time, buying whatever you could afford when you could afford it. You can always just amass the parts and turn them over to a builder when you’re ready, for pinning in the blocks and getting the entire thing refinished. You’d still have the money wrapped up in two guns, at least for a while, but you wouldn’t have had to lay it out all at once, if that works for you. I consider this a viable option for several reasons, but most of all because C2’s that get the Colt SMG’s as turn-ins from PD’s commonly cut up the lower receiver and sell all the rest as a parts “kit”. These often include a mag or two in the package and usually sell in the $800.00 range. You would have to get a semi FCG and a longer barrel, but I would be surprised if you couldn’t find someone to swap the SMG barrel for a factory 16 inch barrel pretty quick. There are enough people who want to SBR their factory guns for there to be a market for this, and a factory SMG barrel is probably preferable to having a smith cut through the chrome lining chopping down the longer barrel. Obviously this option presents it’s own set of problems, not least of which is the fact that you’re on a never ending shopping spree, but you do end up with factory Colt parts assembled just the way you want them. The fact that you spread the cost out over time may make it possible for you to keep your HK as well, thus satisfying the AR15.com mantra of “Buy both” |
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Thanks again for the reply Beowulf. I did not mean to give the impression that I wanted NIB mags. I would just to prefer to find a good source and buy all the mags I need. I have someone I need to check with that might be able to help me here. I lucked out with MP-5 mags when I found a source that I was able to get 29 new in wrapper mags from. I'm just hoping I can find a dealer that will actually sell them to me. I've decided that I am definitely going to contact ADCO to see what they can do for me. After thinking about it, I'm not really stuck on getting a Colt - I just want a reliable gun out of the box I don't have to mess around with. And if I decide to go with an AR 9mm, I just don't see myself keeping the HK-94. I'm not a collector and I'm sure after I get a 9mm AR, the HK will just be a safe queen. Thanks again for the detailed and informative responses. They've been a huge help. I sincerely appreciate it. |
My pleasure Matt, glad to be of assistance. My own 9mm “adventure” started with a close to home indoor range (pistol caliber’s only) and a long distance commute to the rifle range. For an AR guy this was an untenable situation, or so I convinced myself at the time. I knew I didn’t want a Colt and started looking for a pre-ban Bushmaster to convert when don’t you know one shows up on the EE. Lucky me!!! I was the first to accept the ridiculously high price he was asking and two weeks later I’m at my local gun shop picking it up. If there was ever a worse assemblage of mismatched, saved from the scrap heap, cobbled together piece of crap sold as a firearm I’ve yet to see it. To say I wasn’t happy would be a gross understatement and that would have been true at even half the price. I got home, threw the thing on the floor and stared at, pissed that I had been burned on an Internet sale. I knew I really needed to calm down a bit before contacting the seller or I’d say something I’d regret so, with nothing else to do, I grabbed a couple of boxes of ammo and headed out to the range. It worked. It even hit point of aim, although with the welded together front sight assembly I can’t imagine why. I finished up the ammo I had brought with me and hit the store for a box of hollow point, looking for a reason to hate the gun. It ate them all without a hitch and I was now stuck with a gun that worked perfectly but looked like hell. What to do? On the ride home I decided that what I had bought was a pre-ban Bushmaster lower with pinned in blocks, not a piece of crap gun. I chalked up the exorbitant price to a learning experience, stripped the gun of everything but the receiver and started on my own little shopping spree that lasted the better part of a year. I SBR’d the receiver before I even found all the parts to build it with and learned more than I wanted to know at the time about 9mm AR’s. Everything worked out in the end, except the price I ended up paying for the thing. 
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Wow, sorry to hear about that. I've actually purchased almost all of my firearms via the Internet and have been really lucky. I have not had a bad experience yet (knock on wood). Though the only one that had any potentional for problem was the HK-94 because it wasn't NIB (although it might as well have been). For yucks, I quickly put together a list of the parts I would need to complete a 9mm AR in comes up to about the same as a Colt 9mm AR. When I get home tongith, I check my Colt list just so I can make sure I'm comparing apples to apples. Anyway, here's what I came up with: Preban A4 Upper $378 KAC FF RAS $350 LMT Rear Sight $100 Stripped Lower $100 9mm Hammer $15 Lower Parts Kit $55 MIAD Grip $50 Mag Block $150 (Permanently installed) Magpul M-93A $225 9mm Buffer $24 Excise Tax $159 Shipping ??? Labor ??? TOTAL $1,606 If ADCO can do it, this would definitely be the way to go. I don't like paying extra for a name. |
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Sounds like a plan, good luck with it. Have you read this yet? www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=15&t=217883 |
Thanks for the heads up. I saw the post when I came into this section but I went to this thread first. Good to know. |
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Clyde Armory shipped my new 6450 today. I was # 1 on their 9mm carbine list . With all the Colt letterhead B.S. and rumors of Colt skipping production until November 2005 I wasn't sure I would see it at all. Price was $1,049.00 + S&H. The price may be more now since mine was set when I ordered. I forgot to ask how many they received as I was so happy to know mine was on it's way! I've purchased several rifles from Clyde Armory since the ban ended and Josh , Jay and Andrew are all great people to deal with ! Buy them now , who knows what the future will bring. |
Thanks for the head's up. I will give them a call today. If they have any left and it's in that price range, I will probably go for it. Otherwise, I am going to go the RRA route. I'm not attached to the Colt name, that's for sure. I just want a reliable rifle. |
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I called Clyde Armory and spoke with Jay. I gave him my contact info and I am #41 on the list. I expect a long wait but I'm not in a big hurry. I should have more than enough time to sell my HK-94 that's for sure. He's also notated that I wanted 19 mags so at least I can get in line for those. We left it very open-ended. He will call me when he has one for me with the price. If I'm Ok, with the price, I will send him a certified check and FFL. If I decide to get a Colt/RRA somewhere else, I will call him and let him know. At least I have a ball in play. If I can get the Colt at a decent price, I will be happy with that. No muss, no fuss. All I will need to do is have some install a KAC FF RAS and I will be good to go. I decided that I don't mind the A2 upper receiver. It will save me from having to buy a BUIS and I'll just mount an Aimpoint on the FF RAS. I'll install a Magpul stock myself. I still plan on checking with ADCO soon to see what they can do for me. The only glitch is I will need to find at least (1) Colt 9mm mag that I can send it to them so they can test for proper function. Since RRA is switching their mag block design, I will just go to the source, ASA and get the style of mag block that will take Colt mags so I can use the BHO function. Thanks to everyone for all their input. I'm now on the long and winding road to owning a 9mm AR.
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Ok, change of plans. I've exchanged a few e-mails with Joe Black (Herb @ www.m60joe.com) and he can do all the fitting and tweaking I need (pin in mag block, modify IMI Uzi mags, assemble and test the rifle). All I will need to do is get him the parts. I'll post a follow-up thread once I've got the rifle and have fired it. Thanks again to everyone for their help. I really, really appreciate it. |
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www.sawlesales.com/ or [email protected] Either of these guys usually carries them. Not positive about Dennis Todd's email address but someone can correct me if I'm wrong. |
I have them in stock for $4.50 a set, linky |
| I like the HK-94 better as just plainly comparing the two guns. It is very reliable and accurate. I like the collapsing stock better becasue it is metal and is shorter than the AR stock when collapsed which is nice for CQB. The charging handle is located better. It is delayed blowback and not just stright blowback. The magazines are nicer and you can get Beta-C drums. I'm not saying that the AR in 9mm isn't a bad weapon, but it isn't as nice either. Of course the AR has some nice features that the HK-94 does not. Such as changing out the barrels and calibers and more aftermarket parts. I think if you want two different weapons you should buy two guns. However if money is tight, then the AR is nice because you can change the weapon without buying more guns. |
Whoa, I thought this thread was dead.
For me, money hasn't been the issue. I bought the HK-94 first and since I only want one gun, it had to go. My 9mm AR will be a complete dedicated rifle. |
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