Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
Posted: 11/8/2014 7:57:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/11/2014 5:47:28 AM EST by armeiro]
The AR-11 Stopette is refered as been based on the AR-3 (Eugene Stoner M7),the AR-3 had a fiberglass drop heel stock and aluminium receiver and it used a normal gas operation as a long piston rod conects directly to the carrier to operate and cam the 8 lug bolt...







...the AR-11 Stopette had the same (or similar) fiberglass drop heel stock and aluminium receiver,but it used the same gas system operation as the AR-10,unlike the AR-3...

" Throughout 1957, Armalite designed and tested two prototypes to submit for trials by the Infantry User Board at Fort Benning. The first, which Armalite designers called the
Stopette, had a traditional rifle appearance. It featured a traditional type of drop heel stock,but used the same lightweight alloys and plastics as the AR-10.
The Stopette used the Stoner type method of direct gas impingement operation, also borrowed from the AR-10. However, the Stopette suffered from poor performance in fully
automatic mode, since the high cyclic rate of fire, combined with a drop heel stock, caused excessive muzzle climb and poor controllability."

"At ArmaLite, Stoner is more interested in developing 7.62mm NATO weapons, and is already working on the design of what was to become the AR-12 rifle (the father of the AR-16 and grandfather of the 5.56x45mm AR-18). Sources disagree as to who designed ArmaLite's first SCHV prototype, the AR-11 (AKA: The "Stopette"). Essentially a scaled down version of Stoner's 7.62mm AR-3 rifle chambered for the commercial .222 Remington, the AR-11 is alternately credited to 'Doc' Wilson and Robert Enewold (who is also credited with the ArmaLite/USAF AR-5 .22 Hornet aircrew survival rifle). The AR-11 proves to be too light, which combined with a high cyclic rate and the requested conventional stock, leads to difficulty in controlling automatic fire. Ultimately, the AR-11 prototype is wrecked when its barrel extension fails during testing. It is later claimed that the barrel extension was scaled down too far, weakening it. Remembering General Wyman's favorable bent toward the AR-10 design, ArmaLite had also begun work on a scaled down version of the rifle. But this design, credited to John Peck, also uses the same small barrel extension as the AR-11. After the failure of the AR-11's barrel extension in testing, work is discontinued on Peck's design. Robert Fremont and L. James Sullivan are eventually tasked with starting from scratch in scaling down the AR-10 to .222 Remington."

This John Peck prototype,as it was discontinued due to having the same barrel extension problem as the AR-11 Stopette,was it ever a real physical prototype or just a drafting project that never left the drafting table?

Reed Knight holding the XAR-15 prototype designed by Robert Fremont and L. James Sullivan.

Link Posted: 11/8/2014 8:09:07 AM EST
The Interview: L. James Sullivan Part I - Small Arms Review

"The Stopette was originally designed by somebody who wasn't there anymore, I think his name was Doc Wilson. John Peck was doing a military version..."
Link Posted: 11/8/2014 8:18:01 AM EST
amazing
Link Posted: 11/8/2014 8:21:49 AM EST
Posted over on Ian's Forgotten Weapons.

Posted by a Leszek Erenfreicht:

"Got a Collector Grade’s “Black Rifle” by Stevens and Ezell?

There you can find the sad story of the AR-11 aka Stoppette, which was actually a first entry by ArmaLite into the SCHV program and forebear of the later AR-15 which stepped into the gap left by the AR-11 which Ka-Boomed during testing.

Actually it was a development of the AR-3 self-loading rifle, in much the same relation to it as the AR-15 was to AR-10, chambered for the .222 Rem but with 55-grs FMJBT bullet by Frank Snow from Sierra Bullets (actually this bullet was all that survived the AR-11 fiasco – it was later to become the M193).

Lessons from AR-11 (designed by Doc Wilson in lieu of Stoner, who was at that time developing the AR-10 in Holland) were incorporated into Sullivan/Peck’s AR-15.

Actually, there were two parallel variants of AR-11, one developed by Wilson from AR-3, and the other developed by Peck from AR-10, but only the Wilson’s project was officially christened the AR-11, while the Peck’s design was side-lined because the Army didn’t like the futuristic lines of the AR-10.

After AR-11's K-B! (the bullet struggled to fulfill the 500 meters helmet piercing requirement, so it was loaded hot enough to get better of the composite steel-lined aluminum bbl), the Peck’s rifle was analyzed and discontinued before even prototype phase because it promised equally abysmal results.

At that point Jim Sullivan stepped in and together with Peck they designed the AR-15 (Stoner still being away)."
Link Posted: 11/8/2014 9:26:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/8/2014 9:34:36 AM EST by armeiro]
AR-11 was the ArmaLite nomenclature for the SCHV project.

Doc Wilson and Robert Enewold worked on the drop heel stock AR-11 Stoppette as John Peck worked on the straight line stock AR-11.

The Doc Wilson and Robert Enewold drop heel stock AR-11 Stoppette is tested and fails due to a poorly designed barrel extension.

The John Peck straight line stock AR-11 is discontinued due to the same barrel extension problem,never tested.

Robert Fremont and L. James Sullivan design the straight line stock XAR-15,similar to John Peck straight line stock AR-11.

Link Posted: 11/8/2014 10:08:27 AM EST
The Doc Wilson and Robert Enewold drop heel stock AR-11 was chosen for military testing as the military saw the John Peck straight line stock AR-11 as too futuristic,as they did with the AR-10.The two AR-11 variations had the same barrel extension problem,if the John Peck straight line stock AR-11 had been chosed for testing,it would have been more controlable when firing but it would still have the same barrel extension problem.

"The second was an AR-10 scaled down to chamber the commercial .222 Remington cartridge. This layout proved much more stable and possessed a lower cyclic rateof fire.
Eugene Stoner demonstrated this model to General Wyman and high-end Continental Army Command officers on May 6, 1957..."

The refered one is not the John Peck straight line stock AR-11 but the Robert Fremont and L. James Sullivan straight line stock XAR-15.
Link Posted: 11/8/2014 5:51:45 PM EST


If the XAR-15 was done by Robert Fremont and L. James Sullivan under the supervision of Eugene Stoner or done by Robert Fremont and L. James Sullivan as E.Stoner was still in Holland,it made use of capitalized information from the modifications done to the AR-10 in Holland,not in all aspects of its structure as this one was just a prototype platform to test the new ammo,but to the carrier gas out vent ports.
The pistol grip in this XAR-15 as a diferent geomerty from the one used in the AR-10 (U.S. or Dutch).


Link Posted: 11/9/2014 4:54:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/9/2014 7:13:34 PM EST by armeiro]
The Doc Wilson and Robert Enewold AR-11 Stopette may have been based on the AR-3 (E.Stoner M7) as it made use of a drop heel stock,but the rest was probably diferent as it used not the same piston but the same system as the AR-10.
The AR-14 was a drop heel stock autoloading rifle that ArmaLite developed for the civilian market using the AR-10,it never left the drafting table but the drawings still exist and one can see that the gas tube cames from under the barrel,out the gas block,and over the left side and in to the receiver,it the carrier gas key the same as the AR-10 Hollywood with the gas tube moving in to a receiver section and in to the carrier from a machined slut over the left side,it is possible that the Doc Wilson and Robert Enewold AR-11 Stopette worked in the same way...


Link Posted: 11/9/2014 5:31:53 AM EST
"After the failure of the AR-11's barrel extension in testing, work is discontinued on Peck's design. Robert Fremont and L. James Sullivan are eventually tasked with starting from scratch in scaling down the AR-10 to .222 Remington."

Owh bad was the John Peck design,to be discontinued and replaced with a new one.The problem with the Peck design was the same as with the Doc Wilson and Robert Enewold design in the AR-11 Stopette,the scaled down barrel extension in the tested AR-11 Stopette failed and to keep working in the Peck AR-11 project expecting a diferent result would just be stupid as the two used the same scaled down barrel extension.
But if the problem with the Peck AR-11 was just with the barrel extension design,did it justified eleminating all the project when redesigning the barrel extension size would fix it (as that was the problem)?

"Remembering General Wyman's favorable bent toward the AR-10 design, ArmaLite had also begun work on a scaled down version of the rifle. But this design, credited to John Peck...)

If the Peck design was already a scaled down version of the AR-10,why eliminate it complitly for a new scaled down version of the same,but done dy diferent people.

As the ArmaLite SCHV project was done around the new .222 case,the AR-11 project probably started not as a weapon but as a barrel and barrel extension design.
Link Posted: 11/9/2014 7:34:25 AM EST
The ArmaLite SCHV project started in 1957,at this time the Ar-10 was the Hollywood model with the gas tube placed over the left side and the gas transfer over the left side of the upper receiver that vented in to a machined slut over the left side of the bolt carrier,the John Peck design was a scaled down version of the Hollywood AR-10.

L. James Sullivan started working at ArmaLite as a draftsman in 1957,at the time they were working in the Hollywood AR-10,at the time the AR-10 was also being redesigned and they wanted the all gas assembly to be moved over the top but as there was no place for a gas transfer over the top of the upper receiver Sullivan combined it with the carrier key,this allowed him to become a designer and work right under Eugene Stoner.

The L. James Sullivan and Robert Fremont XAR-15 was a scaled down version of the newly redesigned AR-10 with the gas assembly over the top,this was diferent from the John Peck scaled down Hollywood AR-10 with the gas assembly over the left side.

Ultimately,the John Peck design was discontinued due to its defective barrel extension and due to being based on the older Hollywood model.
Link Posted: 11/9/2014 8:47:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/9/2014 5:12:58 PM EST by armeiro]
"...1957, Fairchild ArmaLite sold a five-year manufacturing license for the AR-10 to the Dutch arms manufacturer, Artillerie Inrichtingen...A.I. officials meanwhile discovered a number of manufacturing and production issues in the Hollywood version of the AR-10...ArmaLite also continued to send A.I. product improvement requests, including an...repositioned gas tube..."

L. James Sullivan was involved in this as a draftsman/designer working under eugene Stoner,after the failure of the Doc Wilson and Robert Enewold AR-11 Stopette and the discontinuation of the John Peck design,L. James Sullivan and Robert Fremont made use of the work they were doing in the improvement of the Dutch production AR-10 scaling it down to develop the XAR-15.

As a project,the L. James Sullivan and Robert Fremont XAR-15 had better production prospects due to its repositioned gas tube/carrier gas key,then the John Peck design due to its Hollywood left side gas tube/gas transfer.

Link Posted: 11/9/2014 9:22:30 AM EST
1957 was a very exiting year,Fairchild ArmaLite Company Proposed Activity for 1957 Projects: AR-5, AR-9, AR-10, AR-11, AR- 12, AR-13, AR-14.
Link Posted: 11/9/2014 4:21:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/9/2014 7:12:28 PM EST by armeiro]
The AR-14 was a autoloading prototype that was to use the same gas system as the AR-10,the gas tube starts under the barrel from the gas block and moves back and around the barrel over to the left side to fit in to the gas transfer (#42) over the left side of the receiver,this was the same operation as in the Hollywood AR-10.

The Doc Wilson and Robert Enewold AR-11 Stopette was a scaled down AR-3 using the same gas system as the Hollywood AR-10 with its side gas tube/gas transfer (#42) so as with the AR-14.

The John Peck design used the same side gas tube/gas transfer as it was scaled down from the same Hollywood AR-10.

Link Posted: 11/9/2014 7:02:34 PM EST
Looks neat, almost like a scaled up M1 Carbine. I'd buy one
Link Posted: 11/10/2014 7:11:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/10/2014 7:34:14 AM EST by armeiro]
Link Posted: 11/10/2014 7:34:17 PM EST
The AR-11 "Stopette" code name was chosen as a joke that most would understand at the time,"Stopette" was a deodorant spray used in the 1950s,the advertising showed a multi directional poof with the slogan "Poof! There goes perspiration.".

The "Stopette" code name was representative of the expected uncontrability of the AR-11 in full automatic as it was too light,it sprayed bullets with the slogan..."Poof! There goes the enemy.".

"The AR-11 proves to be too light, which combined with a high cyclic rate and the requested conventional stock, leads to difficulty in controlling automatic fire."
Link Posted: 11/11/2014 4:13:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/11/2014 4:41:15 PM EST by armeiro]
The AR-14 autoloading project was structurally very similar to the AR-9 shotgun (that was basically the same as the AR-17 but with a longer choke/Compensator) but using the same gas system and bolt design as the AR-10.

At the time,the bolt geometrical design was the same as the one used in the Hollywood with the gas tube and transfer over the left side,this first bolt and gas transfer design was problematic due to the use of a machined slut over the left side of the bolt carrier and the way the gas was transferred in to it,too much residual filt was left inside the receiver (that was harder to open then the one in the AR-10),using the later gas key over the carrier top would disfigure the harmony of the design,this and the priority being given to a military platform using this gas operation kept it from ever leaving the drafting table.



Its is always possible that the Doc Wilson and Robert Enewold AR-11 Stopette had more similarities to the AR-14 then to the AR-3.

As the AR-11 uses the same AR-14 and AR-10 (Hollywood) gas system,it may use the same recoil spring assembly as the AR-14 that recoils in to the butstock,unlike the AR-3 that uses a conventional gas piston and as its recoil spring inside the gas tube.

The AR-11 may have used a similar stock to the one in the AR-3 but using the same internal assembly as the AR-14.
Link Posted: 11/12/2014 11:52:28 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By armeiro:
"...1957, Fairchild ArmaLite sold a five-year manufacturing license for the AR-10 to the Dutch arms manufacturer, Artillerie Inrichtingen...A.I. officials meanwhile discovered a number of manufacturing and production issues in the Hollywood version of the AR-10...ArmaLite also continued to send A.I. product improvement requests, including an...repositioned gas tube..."

L. James Sullivan was involved in this as a draftsman/designer working under eugene Stoner,after the failure of the Doc Wilson and Robert Enewold AR-11 Stopette and the discontinuation of the John Peck design,L. James Sullivan and Robert Fremont made use of the work they were doing in the improvement of the Dutch production AR-10 scaling it down to develop the XAR-15.

As a project,the L. James Sullivan and Robert Fremont XAR-15 had better production prospects due to its repositioned gas tube/carrier gas key,then the John Peck design due to its Hollywood left side gas tube/gas transfer.

http://i62.tinypic.com/dvg8yd.jpg
View Quote


Great picture ! It always looked like the front sight base
Is missing something
Link Posted: 11/13/2014 5:48:41 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/13/2014 5:57:48 AM EST by armeiro]
"Actually, there were two guns made. There was one they called a Stopette, which was in .222 Remington caliber. It didn't have a pistol grip, and it didn't have a big enough barrel extension. The extension broke, and the head of the machine shop that was firing it was creased on the top of his head, and required getting patched up. The Stopette was originally designed by somebody who wasn't there anymore, I think his name was Doc Wilson. John Peck was doing a military version, just a scaled down AR-10. What you might call a first AR-15 in a way, but it certainly wasn't. It was smaller in diameter, it still had the same small barrel extension diameter as the one that had blown up. That project was stopped when the Stopette blew up. They had fired it all right, but it was the first of that size that we changed the gas system from the side. This too had the side gas system that I moved to the top...

...We started from scratch, and there was another guy that joined me by the name of Bob Fremont who wasn't a gun guy. Bob was one of these fussy guys that was exactly right most of the right time. He drove everybody crazy. He did the most meticulous tolerance studies. He would do that, and I was doing the gun design on this gun, they hadn't even given it a name yet"

(The Interview: L. James Sullivan Part I By Dan Shea)


Link Posted: 11/13/2014 7:38:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/13/2014 4:01:05 PM EST by armeiro]
The AR-11 Stopette was just a one off prototype,as the barrel extension broke when fired at the ArmaLite test firing facility (probably by Warren Runnals) it never left the machine shop and thus it was never test fired by the military?



ArmaLite gunsmith Warren Runnals test firing a AR-10B.
Top Top