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Posted: 2/8/2011 9:55:09 PM EDT
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I purchased this M16A1 upper on another board and need help dating it.
I purchased this from another forum and am wanting to identify what type of upper, maker and date of manufacture. Upper - no markings Barrel - MP marking under FSB and C an inch from the flash FSB - some hard to read markings 
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| Barrel was made after October 1967 and before 1969. Upper should have Colt proof marks (unless it has forge flash) but they can be very faint or worn. Roll-pinned front swivel and removed FSB forge flash are correct for that period. I'll let someone more knowledgeable than I comment on the bolt carrier group. Read the M16 series variation guide and 603 buyers guide sticky threads if you haven't already. |
| Wow, I'm guessing the upper receiver has forging flash on the rear and possibly the front. It looks like a H&R upper with the "correct" barrel. It looks like a nicer version of an upper receiver I posted here. Mine looks like it was a very dark (black) finish that has worn through to the green / bronze tint beneath. Is that how you would describe the color of yours? Also, it looks like the slip ring is wearing through to the same / similar color, is this correct? I am having a lower receiver anodized to match my upper but wasn't sure if I should have the same thing done to the slip ring, I didn't want to take this "too far" but now it looks like I might have to. If your upper receiver does have forging flash on it, could you take a look at the back side of the forward assist for markings similar to this? If yours is a H&R upper it looks like it is in nice shape and might have the original forward assist still in place. (if that is what the mark means) There are some pictures of H&R rifles / parts on the "other manufacturers" section of Retro Black Rifle. (I can't load the page right now) |
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^ Would an H&R receiver be counterbored? I'm going to go out on a limb and say yes. The 604 uppers from the same era still had the counterbore. My guess is they wanted to maintain some form of parts interchangability with the earlier 601/602 lowers. I also suspect H+R and GM were working off of the same blueprints as Colt. |
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Wow, I'm guessing the upper receiver has forging flash on the rear and possibly the front. It looks like a H&R upper with the "correct" barrel. It looks like a nicer version of an upper receiver I posted here. Mine looks like it was a very dark (black) finish that has worn through to the green / bronze tint beneath. Is that how you would describe the color of yours? Also, it looks like the slip ring is wearing through to the same / similar color, is this correct? I am having a lower receiver anodized to match my upper but wasn't sure if I should have the same thing done to the slip ring, I didn't want to take this "too far" but now it looks like I might have to. If your upper receiver does have forging flash on it, could you take a look at the back side of the forward assist for markings similar to this? If yours is a H&R upper it looks like it is in nice shape and might have the original forward assist still in place. (if that is what the mark means) There are some pictures of H&R rifles / parts on the "other manufacturers" section of Retro Black Rifle. (I can't load the page right now) Now that I actually have time to examine the pictures (I was rushing for work when I posted earlier this morning  ), I see that the bayonet lug has that weird forge code that been associated to H&R barrels, so this may indeed be an H&R upper assembly. 
ETA: Beautiful upper assembly, MacAttack! I love topics like this. 
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| Can you take a closeup of the area just behind the slip ring, just above the dust cover? If it is a early Colt, the forge marks would be there. Also if it is a greenish bronze color it may be a 66-67 Colt. There was a run that had that color. I have one. It was refinshed black in a arsenal rebuild, but paint stripper removed all the coating, and the true color was underneath. |
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^ Would an H&R receiver be counterbored? I really like the natural anodizing of your upper. I need to try that stripper on a couple of black arsenal refinished uppers I have. My H & R receiver does not have the counterbore, but mine may be a later build than yours. Your FSB & bayo lug does have the forge marks similar to my H&R barrel assembly. The "flash" on the rear of the carry handle and lack of proof marks in front of the port door is a good indicator of possibly being an H&R upper. Also, check on the backside of the teardrop FA for some type of forge code...this too, is an indicator of H&R parts. |
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Can you take a closeup of the area just behind the slip ring, just above the dust cover? If it is a early Colt, the forge marks would be there. Also if it is a greenish bronze color it may be a 66-67 Colt. There was a run that had that color. I have one. It was refinshed black in a arsenal rebuild, but paint stripper removed all the coating, and the true color was underneath. If you look at mine, it is just like the Op's - no Colt proofs. 
and no flash on the forward edge 
and no flash at the rear or marking by the FA 
If we rule out Colt, and no H&R flash, that leaves GM |
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Thank you all for the information. I plan to do a retro build based on this upper. I know NDS makes M16A1 lowers. Do I go with a full fence lower or a partial fence? Also, do you think NDS battle field finish would match my upper? Hey MacAttack, the NDS full fence lower would be the lower to use with this upper. I am building a rifle based on the "same" upper receiver you have and bought a NDS full fence lower for it. I called NDS and was able to buy an "in the white" lower and had it sent to US Anodizing so that it can be anodized with the same / similar process as the upper. I sent the upper to NDS so they could pick a lower with a good physical fit to the upper (It fits very loose in every lower I put it on) and they sent the upper and lower to US Anodizing so they could make a "best effort" color match. On my upper, the few places where the finish has not worn away appear to be very dark / black. The best protected part of the upper is under the rear sight assembly, when I remove mine I see (shiny) black original finish underneath. I am having the custom anodizing done because I am going to try to wear through the dark "outer" finish and reveal the green / bronze color underneath. I have no idea how this is going to turn out, I'm not sure H&R made lower receivers that were anodized the same way, but I am going to give it a try anyway. If you want to try this too, you might let me finish mine first and see how it turns out.
If you don't want to take it to this extreme I think a black NDS full fence lower would be the best match. When I look at my upper, I see the remaining original finish as black so I would start with a black lower. I like the builds I see with battle field finish, but I don't know if the "standard" battle field finish will match the way the finish is worn from your upper. The pictures of NDS battle field worn lowers I have seen have wear on corners and edges, but I am thinking the best match worn lower for our uppers will have much of the (dark) finish worn away on the open surfaces too. I know I am going to spend many hours wearing through the outer finish on my lower, it doesn't bother me but I know I would never want to pay anyone to do it. I would call NDS and ask, they may be able to do this. Your upper is really cool, I'm glad to see you want to keep it in it's original finish as opposed to having it refinished. Mine looks like about the same as yours but has more dings and scratches. My barrel has some rust on the FSB but it doesn't really bother me, it matches the rust on the forward assist. I am jealous of your slip ring though, I don't know what I am going to do for a slip ring...
I don't see the following site / pages mentioned here so I'm not sure if it is impolite or against the rules to link to them, but there are a lot of useful pictures and information found on these pages maintained by willp: H&R / GM and Research Quoted:
^ Would an H&R receiver be counterbored? 86HMMWV, all the uppers with forging flash I have seen have been counterbored. (uppers not mounted on a lower) I'll look through pictures of other ones I have saved too. |
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For reference, here's a few pics of my H&R upper & barrel assembly.
It is dark in color & appears to be the original finish. It actually matches closer in color to a modern bushmaster black lower versus a NDS "xm grey" lower. My upper does NOT have the counterbore on the front lug, but does have flashing on the rear of the carry handle and forge codes on the backside of the teardrop FA button and FSB/bayo lug that are typical indicators to H&R parts. 
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ar15guy, you say that yours isn't counterbored, so maybe H&R was contracted early on in M16A1 production when upper receivers were still being counterbored. I would tend to agree with your statement due to the fact that H&R (and GM) was contracted from 1968 thru 1971 and could potentially contain both style of uppers (counterbored & non-counterbored). As I stated in an earlier post, my upper might have been produced later in their production cycle ...I'm pointing out that there are no hard and fast rules on H&R uppers i.e. "they always have x, y, z, etc.". The H&R and GM builds seem to be unique animals with numerous variations during their contract production periods (similar to Colt production variations). The M16A1 sticky from the top of the retro section states the following pertaining to H&R and Hydramatic (GM) builds... H&R and Hydramatic also made M16A1 rifles. Numbers produced were much smaller then Colt, so these uppers do not turn up as often. Both delivered M16A1 rifles from 1968 through 1971. Some features to help ID these include: no Colt proof marks in front of the port door forging flash left on the front or rear of the carry handle (or both) older upper without counter bore on front lug MP marked upside down on the left side of barrel |
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I have the same exact upper with the same markings and was told from the seller that it was a 68 Army national guard upper with a 1-12 twist. Could you post pictures of it? EDIT: I remember your post now, its getting hard to keep track of all this!
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If you look at mine, it is just like the Op's - no Colt proofs. http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt317/Pericles-photo/A1upper-1.jpg and no flash on the forward edge http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt317/Pericles-photo/front.jpg and no flash at the rear or marking by the FA http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt317/Pericles-photo/rear.jpg If we rule out Colt, and no H&R flash, that leaves GM Hello HenryKnoxFineBooks. Can you tell me what kind of tool marks are on the front of the carry handle? All of the (H&R) uppers with rear forging flash I have seen have what look like belt sander tool marks that run left to right and every Colt upper I have bothered to look at have what looks like (smoother) buffing wheel tool marks that run front to back. If your upper is a GM upper I am curious what the tool marks there look like. Here are some images of front carry handle "left to right" tool marks from uppers that have rear forging flash: picture one and picture two. There are some pictures of a GM rifle in the last page of the "Real Deal" picture thread that I hope will not get the photographer in trouble with his "boss." I hope we can get some more details about the upper on that rifle. Actually, could everyone with a rear forging flash upper say what kind of tool marks are on the front of their carry handle? Should we store this information in a more permanent place?
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I have the same exact upper with the same markings and was told from the seller that it was a 68 Army national guard upper with a 1-12 twist. Could you post pictures of it? EDIT: I remember your post now, its getting hard to keep track of all this!
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If you look at mine, it is just like the Op's - no Colt proofs. http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt317/Pericles-photo/A1upper-1.jpg and no flash on the forward edge http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt317/Pericles-photo/front.jpg and no flash at the rear or marking by the FA http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt317/Pericles-photo/rear.jpg If we rule out Colt, and no H&R flash, that leaves GM Hello HenryKnoxFineBooks. Can you tell me what kind of tool marks are on the front of the carry handle? All of the (H&R) uppers with rear forging flash I have seen have what look like belt sander tool marks that run left to right and every Colt upper I have bothered to look at have what looks like (smoother) buffing wheel tool marks that run front to back. If your upper is a GM upper I am curious what the tool marks there look like. Here are some images of front carry handle "left to right" tool marks from uppers that have rear forging flash: picture one and picture two. There are some pictures of a GM rifle in the last page of the "Real Deal" picture thread that I hope will not get the photographer in trouble with his "boss." I hope we can get some more details about the upper on that rifle. Actually, could everyone with a rear forging flash upper say what kind of tool marks are on the front of their carry handle? Should we store this information in a more permanent place?The middle picture gives a good idea of the finish - it is perfectly smooth with no visible marks. Everything about the upper screams Colt, except no proof marks or forging code. Front lug rebated and as you can see in the photo - black finish on an otherwise gray upper. |
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