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Posted: 10/16/2003 6:22:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/12/2006 4:36:50 PM EDT by Ridge]
[originally titled: Weight comparison railed FF forends?] - Troy

For more and all the details. Check out TheRicker's chart 4 relys down

Edit 5-12-06

I've gone through the thread and pulled out the weights that people have post for various rail systems that may or may not be in TheRicker's chart and may or may not be completely accurate, but can give you an idea.

MI weights (I assume not installed weights?)

#20- 13.25 oz
#21- 16.3 oz
#22- 23.0 oz

MI rifle length forearm 2pc nonFF.
Weight: 20.0 ounces

Brugger & Thomet Quad Rails
full length = 512 grams, or 18.07 ounces.
carbine length = 305 grams, or 10.76 ounces

LaRue weights
7.0 - 11.5oz
9.0 - 13.2oz
12.0 - 16.5oz

Troy MRF-C (Carbine) 13.0oz installed
Troy MRF-MX (Mid Length) 17.5oz installed
Troy MRF-R (Rifle) 20.5oz installed
Troy MRF-CX is 13.5 oz. on the nose and is 15.5oz installed.


KAC FF RAS 2 is 11.3oz (13.8oz is the installed weight) as per coldblue.


PRI tube weights courtesy of PRI:

PRI rifle free float fore with all rails, steel nut 1.19Lbs (19.04 oz.)
PRI free float forearm with steel nut, no rails .855 lb. (13.68 oz.)
PRI rifle free float forearm with aluminum nut, no rails .700 lb. (11.20 oz.)
PRI rifle length, all rails and aluminum nut 1.015 lbs. (16.2 oz.)
PRI carbine length, all rails and steel nut .95 lbs (15.2 oz)
PRI Intermediate forearm with rails 1.010lb. Steel nut(16.2 oz.)
PRI Intermediate Forearm with Rails and High strength Aluminum nut .865lb. (13.8 oz.)

Clark Carbon Fiber model is only 6oz. Should be less for a carbine

Armalite National Match Fiberglass Handguard Tube (rifle-length)= 11.390" Weight = 1.5 lbs (24 oz).

YHM Rifle Customizable tube (optional rails, free float): 0.92 lb, aluminum tube (14.72 oz).

YHM LW Carbine Length (Overall length: 7.2 in)

Weight 10.6 oz.

YHM LW Mid-Length (Overall length: 9.2 in)

Weight 12.4 oz.

YHM LW Specter Length (Overall length: 9.675 in)

Weight 12.9 oz.

YHM LW Rifle Length (Overall length: 12.5 in)

Weight 14.75 oz.

GGG FF foreend is 16 ounces


End Edit 5-12-06

M4 RAS-8.8 (handguard)+2.5(standard nut that remains)2.5 = 11.3 oz
M5 RAS rifle length-14.1+2.5= 16.6 oz
Ras II-11.3+2.5=13.8 oz
FF RAS carbine-7.2 (handguard) + 4.2(nut)=11.4 oz with out panels
FF RAS midlength-10.3+ 4.2 = 14.5 oz
FF RAS long-12 + 4.2 = 16.2 oz
URX carbine -8.6 (handguard) + 0.3 (nut) = 8.9 oz
URX mid -12.7 + 0.3=13 oz
URX long-14.4 + 0.3=14.7 oz
Daniel Defense-8.5 oz short with nut no panels
BMAS
C-MORE-15.8 oz
FIRSH-10.5 ? including nut ?
GG&G forend~16 oz
ARMS SIR - 18.8 oz(#45c)
DPMS 4-rail-14oz
etc.

If can provide data or point me in the right direction, I would really appreciate it.

I saw a spreadsheat posted awhile back that had a comparison, but I don't think wieght was included (last time I saw it). Maybe it could be added.


Edited to update provided wieghts for easy reference

For more and all the details. Check out TheRicker's chart below
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 7:35:42 PM EDT
I forgot what GG&G said exactly but it was around a pound.I ended up with a daniel defense.It is well under a pound.Their website lists the exact weight.My #45 SIR was over a pound,if i remember correctly,i want to say 18oz.I hope this helps a little.
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 9:54:25 PM EDT
Daniel Defense handguard weights: short (7.0) 8.5 oz mid (9.0) 10.5 oz (not on website yet) full (12.0) 13.1 oz BTW, we are discontinuing the M4 Rail 9.5 which is not compatible with the mid-length gas systems. Hope this helps. southern [url]www.danieldefense.com[/url]
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 1:30:28 AM EDT
Excellent! Thanks guys, that really does help. Daniel Defense blows everyone away so far. Does ANYONE have a weight on the FF RAS or the m4 RAS????? Edited above post for quick reference.
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 9:45:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/8/2007 8:40:25 AM EDT by TheRicker]
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 11:38:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/19/2003 9:13:08 PM EDT by Bartholomew_Roberts]
KAC FF-RAS (short - M4 carbine) was around 13oz (including the barrel nut). That wasn't a precise reading (freight scale) so it could be off a few ounces either way. Most of the weight was in the barrel nut. EDITED 10/19 TO ADD: Weight was with 2 11-rib and 1 9-rib panel attached.
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 4:28:40 PM EDT
I really like my FF RAS (short) but I have to admit, I do notice the extra weight. Its no big deal, since I just shoot at the range for fun with this carbine, but I would go a different route if I had to carry the gun all day. --Dan
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 5:23:53 PM EDT
Hey Southern- Will that new midlenghth that you referred to above allow the use of a standard/fixed front sight? Thanks, dg.
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 5:25:49 PM EDT
Based on Email from DPMS: Carbine "4-rail" .88lb (14 oz) standard length 1.40lbs (22.4 oz)
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 6:13:02 PM EDT
DPMS- Does DPMS use there own or is it a Yankee Hill (BMAS) forend? Thanks guys! Updating... There's that beautiful chart, thanks TheRicker!
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 6:36:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By dogguy: Hey Southern- Will that new midlenghth that you referred to above allow the use of a standard/fixed front sight? Thanks, dg.
View Quote
dg, yes, it will! southern
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 6:47:01 AM EDT
Southern- Thanks, that's what I have been looking for. How soon might it be in the site? Come on with the pics boys!!! dg.
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 9:13:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2005 8:19:40 PM EDT by Aimless]

Originally Posted By Ridge:
I'm really curious just how much these things weigh. I'm seriously considering something along these lines but I don't want to add too much weight to my rifle. If you know what a mean (300 lbs of lightweight gear and all .

So does anyone know the wieghts of the various forends(including all that is required to attach them to your upper).

Carbine length

FF RAS~13 oz w/ nut
Daniel Defense-8.5 oz short



I'll do some actual weights on Monday when I get to work (at KAC), but one question in regards to the two weights quoted above. Since the DD set-up is an exact copy of our KAC FF RAS, to include requiring a similar new barrel nut, does your posted DD weight of 8.5 oz, include their barrel nut and alignment pins?
Also how do you want the handuard panels factored in. For example, I am happy with three 6-Rib panels on my RAS, but it comes standard with three 11-Rib Panels. Should the weight include removable/switchable panels, or none at all, just the metal parts?

Posts in this thread will show as edited by me as I cleaned up the board code-I made no changes to content-aimless
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 6:15:37 PM EDT
Coldblue, Our weights don't include panels. While our attachment method is very similiar to yours and some others, the shape of our free float is very distinctive in it's duplication of the narrower M4 shape and the additional holes we place beside the gas tube, both of which reduce weight. In light of these differences, your words "exact copy" seem a bit strong. best regards, southern
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 10:29:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By southern: Coldblue, Our weights don't include panels. While our attachment method is very similiar to yours and some others, the shape of our free float is very distinctive in it's duplication of the narrower M4 shape and the additional holes we place beside the gas tube, both of which reduce weight. In light of these differences, your words "exact copy" seem a bit strong. best regards, southern
View Quote
Yes (sorry), I wasn't very clear here, I didn't have any half-and-half for my coffee yesterday morning. What I meant was the design and attachment method for the DD forend, i.e., new Handguard Nut, Barrel Nut, and Barrel Nut Pins being required. I actually like the feel of your forend as I am used to that shape from my M249 and M60 days. I think our (KAC) basically "round" shape is fine if minimal size is a factor, but my bigger hands prefer a more oval shape. So when I weight parts tommorow, I am only going to weigh forends without any panels. I will also include the standard barrel nut/delta ring combo weights to the analogous hardware of the alternative forends, FF RAS, URX, etc.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 1:27:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 1:44:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2005 8:19:54 PM EDT by Aimless]

Originally Posted By coldblue:

Originally Posted By southern:
Coldblue,

Our weights don't include panels.

While our attachment method is very similiar to yours and some others, the shape of our free float is very distinctive in it's duplication of the narrower M4 shape and the additional holes we place beside the gas tube, both of which reduce weight. In light of these differences, your words "exact copy" seem a bit strong.

best regards,

southern


Yes (sorry), I wasn't very clear here, I didn't have any half-and-half for my coffee yesterday morning. What I meant was the design and attachment method for the DD forend, i.e., new Handguard Nut, Barrel Nut, and Barrel Nut Pins being required.
I actually like the feel of your forend as I am used to that shape from my M249 and M60 days. I think our (KAC) basically "round" shape is fine if minimal size is a factor, but my bigger hands prefer a more oval shape.
So when I weight parts tommorow, I am only going to weigh forends without any panels. I will also include the standard barrel nut/delta ring combo weights to the analogous hardware of the alternative forends, FF RAS, URX, etc.



No prob, Coldblue. The prevalence of vertical grip use might make our distinctive oval shape a moot point anyway.

I figured that weighing without panels would be the best standard for comparison since people will have their own panel preferences.

We are developing a secret rail mount compartment to hold those little half & half containers. southern
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 4:58:34 PM EDT
The prevalence of vertical grip use might make our distinctive oval shape a moot point anyway... Don't be so sure, many older shooters like myself have fought a whole war and never needed a verticle grip. And when most of those shooters left Viet-Nam...we were winning!
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 5:16:42 PM EDT
I was told the DD free float tube uses an aluminum barrel nut and this is the difference in weight from the FF RAS (for the most part, I was aware of the profile difference). Is my info correct or not?
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 6:02:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2005 8:20:04 PM EDT by Aimless]

Originally Posted By DevL:
I was told the DD free float tube uses an aluminum barrel nut and this is the difference in weight from the FF RAS (for the most part, I was aware of the profile difference). Is my info correct or not?



Most web photos of our handguards are in profile(elevation) and therefore people don't notice how different our shape is from the FF RAS. When people actually handle our rifles, like at the SHOT Show, we usually get comments like "Wow, that feels GOOD!"

Our barrel nut is indeed aluminum but that is not the only factor in our light weight. Our oval shape is achieved mainly by holding in the side rails and this saves some material, also.

southern
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 6:48:20 PM EDT
Are the barrel nuts from KAC and DD interchangeable? If I buy a DD foreend can I purchase an extra barrel nut?
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 7:13:47 PM EDT
I seriously doubt they will interchange but you are welcome to try. All of our components are available seperately, so getting a spare nut would be no problem. southern
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 9:19:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2005 8:20:14 PM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 11:38:37 PM EDT
Wes, are the DD and KAC barrel nuts identtical or just similar? Does anyone know of any possible negative to an aluminum barrel nut? I love my KAC FF RAS I got from MSTN but the DD forearm looks interesting for a lightweight project.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 12:53:11 AM EDT
What's the wt. of the ARMS #50 slim line I have. and I do notice that it is not front heavy since some of it's wt. is dispersed to the top of the receiver. How the heck do you figure beyond the front of the receiver, cut the off the back of the SIR, I sure wouldn't on mine. The weapon is the best balknced FF that I have handled. Good shootin, Jack
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 7:49:10 AM EDT
TheRicker's table is great; I have been trying to assemble much of this information for a while. However not to get too far off topic, one other useful column would be circumference, as many FF RASs seem too big. Assume measurement by wrapping a tape measure around what would be grasped. One could argue that since some FF RAS are not oval, we could alternatively list width and height as seperate numbers. I have been collecting circumferences off various postings but I have no idea if they are accurate. (Some calculated from diameter): M4: 6.9" RASII: 8.6" SIR: 8.6" FIRSH: 10"(?) generic Alum FF: 6.5"
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 8:58:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 9:01:13 AM EDT by coldblue]
Rail Forend Weights from KAC: oz: Item: 8.1 -RIS 8.8 -M4 RAS 14.1 -M5 RAS (Rifle length/M16A4) 11.3 -RAS II 7.2 -FF RAS Short Carbine 10.3 -Mid-Length FF RAS 12 -FF RAS Long (Rifle) 8.6 -URX Carbine (Short) 12.7 -Mid-Length URX Carbine 14.4 -URX Long (Rifle (URX weights include four each 1/4-20 lower rail securing screws.) Other items for your total weight equations if factoring for the very lightest weight package: oz: Item: 2.5 -M4 Barrel Nut Assy. w/Delta Ring, etc. 4.2 -FF RAS Barrel Nut Assy., w/Pins, etc. 0.3 -URX Barrel Nut No handguard panels were part of these measurements. For comparision purposes: my SIR-C (short Carbine length) is 18.8 oz.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 9:25:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 10:54:34 AM EDT
FF MRE Weights as follows: oz. Item: 12.8 -FF MRE w/Rail Front Filler Tube 11.9 -FF MRE w/Standard Front Filler Tube
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 11:14:06 AM EDT
Coldblue, I love ya man! Err, I mean SIR! That is very much appreciated and is what my measurements of your products shows. Thanks.....Chad
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 11:40:38 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 12:26:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 12:31:56 PM EDT by Ridge]
Excellent, Thanks coldblue! Thanks everyone for all the great input. I agree,because the panels can be varied so much it is best not to include them in the weight. It might be nice to know the wieghts of panels to be fair, because things like the SIR do not require them. But it's nice to know exactly what weight will be added to the rifle. So if it is a SIR, It would be the wieght of the whole unit, but also have to consider that you still have the barrel nut etc. Sometimes the published wieghts look good but doesn't include things like the barrel nut etc. Which would make a unit who's wieght included everything required to mount the barrel look really heavy. For reference a standard handguard with single heat sheilds, barrel nut, delta ring, spring, clip, and cap (everything that would be removed to install the most complet FF tube) weights. 6.7 oz So if you are remove all of that to install say a DD tube at 8.5 oz then you would have a net gain of 1.8 oz (.11 lbs). It's more complicated to figure out exactly what you are adding if you are installing a SIR, for example. When I get a chance (or if someone does it before me) I'll post the wieghts of the individual components of the Handguard etc. That way we can determine exactly what you would be adding to your rifle with the different units. Cool, looked back and saw Coldblue did post the barrel nut and delta ring etc at 2.5 oz. Wieght is definately not the [b]only[/b]factor that is consider but to me it is a large one. My major question when choosing would be. Do the features and charateristics justify the wieght increase?
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 1:02:12 PM EDT
coldblue, I updated my original post to include the KAC wieghts. I added the wieghts of the handguards to the required nuts for mounting the barrel (with non FF units I added that standard nut wieght for comparison). Make sure I understood your posted wieghts and did this correctly ( your wieghts above for the hanguard did not include the nuts correct?). Thanks again!
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 3:32:50 PM EDT
It would also be nice to know the weight of the standard handguards, delta ring, barrel nut, clips, etc. that come off when doing a FF RAS installation. I have all my old parts in a baggie somewhere and if I can remember, I will weigh them tonight and post the info. --Dan
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 8:07:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 9:47:35 PM EDT by TheRicker]
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 11:05:14 PM EDT
For reference: Colt M4 double-heat shield handguards: 6.7oz (plus additional 2.5oz of barrel nut) Measured it on a digital postal scale (actual M4 weight was 6.65, issue barrel nut was 2.445)
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 11:52:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/21/2003 3:37:59 AM EDT by POF-USA]
This is great. A real comparison of products, weights, and prices.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 9:38:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2005 8:20:41 PM EDT by Aimless]
coldblue: 8.6 ... URX weights include four each 1/4-20 lower rail securing screws.

Coldblue: Does your weight include the rails as well as the URX screws? I understand that one or more of these rails can be removed. What do the individual rails weigh roughly?

thanks
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 11:53:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2005 8:20:53 PM EDT by Aimless]

Originally Posted By xyzzy45:
coldblue: 8.6 ... URX weights include four each 1/4-20 lower rail securing screws.

Coldblue: Does your weight include the rails as well as the URX screws? I understand that one or more of these rails can be removed. What do the individual rails weigh roughly?

thanks



As I said above:

8.6 -URX Carbine (Short)
12.7 -Mid-Length URX Carbine
14.4 -URX Long (Rifle
(URX weights include four each 1/4-20 lower rail securing screws.)

In response to your question today:
The lower rail of the URX is removable by the operator. From the factory it is secured with the four 1/4-20 screws, but it only really needs two. With the screws removed, the lower URX rail is allowed to slide forward slightly and drops down out of the way.
Weight (in oz.) of the lowers (without screws) is as follows:
2.6 -Short URX
4.2 -Mid-Length
4.7 -Long
.3 -Four 1/4-20 Screws
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 12:23:48 PM EDT
Great Info
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 3:15:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/22/2003 10:47:12 PM EDT by Yojimbo]
Great info on the thread! Here's my small contribution! I just got off the phone with ARMS and got all the weights for all the SIR models with the barrel nut clamp! 45m - 20.6 oz 45c - 18.7 46c - 16.7 50c - 16.1 50m - 18.7 * I didn't even know this one existed! 51c - 21.2 58m - 23 59m - 29 Hope this helps, it will certainly be nice to see everything compiled into one spreadsheet! Cheers!
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 3:51:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 4:40:22 PM EDT
Excellent work! Thanks Yojimbo.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 4:54:17 PM EDT
This needs to be tacked up top for all eternity. Thank you so very much Thericker!!! Thanks.....Chad
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 5:02:06 PM EDT
To round out the FIRSH line up. From triple break products. Stubby FIRSH-6.0 oz Carbine FIRSH-10.5 oz Mid length FIRSH-12.5 oz Rifle length FIRSH-18.0 oz Long Carbine-23.4 oz
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 5:38:19 PM EDT
This would be a nice one to tack.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 7:01:32 PM EDT
Nice thing that I like is that I can make the SIR lighter as needed if I don't need one or more rails by selecting the rail and also having it where I need them. The wt. of the selective sling swivel is also always included when ARMS give's those numbers, and non of the other rail set up's include that kind of extra wt. because they don't provide a swivel. You have to buy those other swivels as an extra. Those other extra expensive swivels also have two to three times the wt. of the one included automaticaly with a SIR. That type info needs to be in a chart for comparison, as it sure adds to the overall wt. and expense of the weapon. Good shootin, Jack
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 7:14:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/21/2003 7:15:54 PM EDT by KevinB]
Single Point Sling...[;D]
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 8:11:43 PM EDT
Weights I got with a Mettler Toledo electronic scale: 14.08 oz ArmaLite fibo free float tube for 20" with barrel nut 14.56 oz KAC M5 with delta assy, no barrel nut, and three 11 rib panels 7.68 oz Colt's M16A2 handguards with delta assy, no barrel nut
Link Posted: 10/22/2003 12:38:22 AM EDT
Thanks a lot folks. This thread seriously needs to be tacked!
Link Posted: 10/22/2003 8:32:07 AM EDT
I vote a 2nd time for this to be tacked!! I don't think the Firsh is that lite. Maybe that's the weight without the barrel nut? My first tube was a Firsh. It's gone now, but it weighed either 13.5 or 14 ozs without covers. Don't remember for certain. Thanks.....Chad
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