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Posted: 1/1/2003 4:42:20 PM EDT
I threw this together, and decided to post it. Any other items I should add? Any corrections (be prepared to back them up with facts, please)? -Troy |
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Great Idea! Should be a good reference for all. I'll have to save it for quick answer to the old "Which AR Should I Buy" post. I have a 20" Government Profile chrome-lined barrel with a 1/7 twist made by DPMS. It may not be cataloged but CMMG has them (overrun?). [url=http://www.cmmginc.com/inventory_a/uppers_tbl.html]Proof[/url] Something tells me your nice spreadsheet is going to have a lot more footnotes than anyone imagined. As you know, ARs get awfully funky. Hell, my head spins when people start talking about all the different Colt AR-15s and their boxes. I guess that's why I try to stick with Bushy[;)] Edited to fix link |
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Quoted: i got an M4 barrel from dpms; CHROME LINED & 1:7 twist..14.5" FYI tnx That was probably a special order item done on contract for a distributor. DPMS rarely chrome lines barrels. They don't do it on special rewquest from individuals (neither the lining nor the 1:7) as far as i know or have heard. |
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Hey all and Happy New Year. I was talking to Olympic last week and they said that they went to a hard-ano finish in the past couple years. Can anyone else(like Mark B.) independantly verify? Also, at the risk of this chart growing like topsy. Or stirring up a huge controversy. I have always been curious from where AR manufacturers source their small parts. For example, how many REAL manufacturers of stocks, gas tubes, barrels, fire-control parts, etc... are out there, who are they and if they are sole-source. Sorry if this isn't the right place or if this project has already been done. -Z out |
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Corrections: DPMS - coulda sworn that they said .223 Wylde chamber, I'll check my manual. DPMS also has Stainless Steel lowers or is that under forged? Warranty on DPMS is 3 years IIRC. I am at work now but I can check when I get home. Additions: Left handed models? upper variations? A1, A2, A3, high/low etc or would this be too many options? |
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I should explain this a bit better. I know there are lots of exceptions, but this chart is primarily for configurations that are normally stocked and available as either complete rifles or complete uppers. Most manufacturers will make special, one-time runs of configurations they don't normally stock, but it doesn't make sense to include that information on a chart that will still be here long after those parts are gone. Also, I didn't include the smaller custom makers (Fulton, Wilson, Baer, etc.) because of their low production volumes and because they tend to make whatever their customers ask for. That makes them harder to chart. However, if there's enough demand, I'll give it a shot. I will make some additions tonight based on other feedback. Keep it coming, folks! -Troy |
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Quoted: I should explain this a bit better. I know there are lots of exceptions, but this chart is primarily for configurations that are normally stocked and available as either complete rifles or complete uppers. Ok... Maybe add the number of configurations available (perhaps complete rifles only?) Average retail price range. Or to use a benchmark; average retail price for a common set-up such as an A-2. Pre-ban configuartions available for LEO [:(] Yes... No. |
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Quoted: I am fairly new with ar's. Could someone explane the .223 Wylde chamber for me? Thanks in advance. Clint It was designed by Bill Wylde; a well respected high-power shooter. He developed it because he thought the US was going to manufacture National match ammo in 5.56 but it never came about. I belive the Wylde chamber is the same as the 5.56 NATO chamber, except that the throat is shorter. I've put everything from South African, Federal XM-193, Winchester Q3131A and various offerings of Black Hills .223 through mine without any problems. |
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Quoted: Ok... Maybe add the number of configurations available (perhaps complete rifles only?) These figures change too often. Average retail price range. Or to use a benchmark; average retail price for a common set-up such as an A-2. There's no way to get real numbers, especially given that there's no single configuration that's available from every manufacturer. And it really comes down to what your dealer is gonna charge you anyway, which may have nothing to do with this chart. Pre-ban configuartions available for LEO [:(] Yes... No. I'm pretty sure all of the companies make pre-ban configs for folks that can have them, including LEOs and for exports. There are a number of things that I can think of that all of the companies offer (flattop receivers, for example), but it doesn't make much sense to put that stuff in a comparison chart. -Troy |
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I am checking on Oly coating. Oly's standard twist rate dependends on which rifles you get. A PCR-1/2/3 standard is 1:10 with 1:8 being optional at no additioanl cost. PCR-4/5/7 are 1:9 with 3 or 4 other optional twist rates available. When did RRA go lifetime warrenty? Barrel steel is also rifle dependant. PCR-1/2/3 are SS where PCR-4/5/6/7/8 are 4140 with SS being optional. DPMS has some rifles with SS and others 4140... DPMS warraty is 3 years. Some suggestions to add for rows for each manufacturer: DCM rifle Left handed rifle (eject brass out left side) - DPMS is only one I know of Stainless steel lower (DPMS for sure, Oly no) The % of total market is incorrect if you include military because you have not included FN into the chart. Overall nice job! |
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Quoted: I am checking on Oly coating. Oly's standard twist rate dependends on which rifles you get. A PCR-1/2/3 standard is 1:10 with 1:8 being optional at no additioanl cost. PCR-4/5/7 are 1:9 with 3 or 4 other optional twist rates available. I'll fix this. When did RRA go lifetime warrenty? Is this wrong? Their web page makes no mention of their warranty, but someone here posted that it was lifetime. Can you provide a source? I'd like to get it correct for the chart. Barrel steel is also rifle dependant. PCR-1/2/3 are SS where PCR-4/5/6/7/8 are 4140 with SS being optional. DPMS has some rifles with SS and others 4140... Right, but that's covered under "stainess steel available." I can't break things down to model level on this kind of chart. DPMS warraty is 3 years. I'll add this. Some suggestions to add for rows for each manufacturer: DCM rifle Ok. Left handed rifle (eject brass out left side) - DPMS is only one I know of Stainless steel lower (DPMS for sure, Oly no) To specific and low-volume for this chart. I've never heard of a dealer stocking one of these; they are generally special orders. Again, you can't add all of that stuff in a chart like this. The % of total market is incorrect if you include military because you have not included FN into the chart. True, but FN has zero civilian sales, so they weren't included in the total either. The #'s given were a percentage of the total market based on a total of those manufacturers. Overall nice job! Thanks. Still going... -Troy |
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One thing my inquiring mind would like to know, You reference barrel sources, (own or "company name") I would like to see upper/lower sources, ie does the company machine their own uppers/lowers in house or do the buy them machined from a outside source? Great chart, Rancid |
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Quoted: True, but FN has zero civilian sales, so they weren't included in the total either. The #'s given were a percentage of the total market based on a total of those manufacturers. I still wouldn't mind seeing some data about FN rifles if possible. Perhaps they don't sell complete rifles but do individual components end up on the civilian market that are worth mentioning? Lately this individual on eBay has been cropping with FN uppers, not sure if they're entirely FN or parts uppers. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=383&item=1984572061 |
| ASA advertises on their web site and in their literature a "lifetime" warranty to the original purchaser. (Nothing is provided in writing at the time of purchase.) However, if you search through the AR15.com site, it will become apparent what that "warranty" is really worth! I have seen numerous complaints about ASA and Hesse on this site. Is it wise to include them in this comparison? Is a footnote warranted? |
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I just verified that Oly is hard coat anodized. I had looked up the warranty for RRA a while back and I thought it was 1 year, but I cannot find my RRA catalog, so I am unsure at this point. Anyone have a RRA catalog that they can share what it says? The reason why I mentioned FN is because you are including military sales into the numbers, but when you include FN, which does only military, than the percentages change quite a bit for the rest. You may want to footnote that FN is not included as they do not make any commercially available rifles and adjust percentgaes accordingly. |
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Quoted: Anyone have a RRA catalog that they can share what it says? The catalog is just a printed copy of the website, however... I did find the warranty card. "LIMITED LIFETIME WARRANTY Rock River Arms warrants to the initial retail purchaser, for his/her lifetime,that this firearm used under normal conditions, will be free of defects in parts, material and workmanship which affect satisfactory operation of the firearm. This warranty is in force only upon the completion of this warranty form by the purchaser and transmittal to ROCK RIVER ARMS." There's more, but this should be enough to answer the question. If I can get my scanner working, I'll post a .jpg of the warrenty card. |
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