Posted: 9/16/2024 9:17:06 AM EDT
|
I took a great precision rifle class several years ago and when I went to sign up for the next level, I saw it was LEO only. I asked why, and I was told there are elements of that class that "civilians" dont need to know. IMO, cops are civilians. Apparently, some animals are more equal than others to them. They are a private entity, they have their rules, but that place will never get another dollar or recommendation from me. |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
|
There is a pretty good sized training outfit kinda near me that used to train us low class civies as well as Mil/LE, but last year I guess it was when one of the "Mass Shooter" idiots shot up a place, somehow it came to light that he had taken several""Tactical"" courses and shortly after they they dropped all Civy enrollment, unless you are vetted and they really know you. They said they were wanting to avoid being put in the situation where someone took a class or 6 from them, then went and shot up a school or something and it came back on them, at least via media stain... Sucks as everything I head from folks that knew teachers there, or had went though classes there, spoke really highly of the whole outfit. Its a place called Asymmetricsolutionsusa.com. Sucks, but as you say, their classes, their rules... |
LARUEMINATI
NRA Endowment Life Member
Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:
""AKs are for villagers you have to tell not to shit in their water supply.""
NRA Endowment Life Member
Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:
""AKs are for villagers you have to tell not to shit in their water supply.""
|
They said they were wanting to avoid being put in the situation where someone took a class or 6 from them, then went and shot up a school or something and it came back on them, at least via media stain... I wonder if they take accountability when they train officers who arrive to an active shooter scene and just mill around... |
|
Originally Posted By Tim_the_enchanter: I was a cop for 32 years. Trust me, you don't want to train with cops. Lol generally agree if you mean on average. That said there are committed teams and individuals. The issue isn't wanting to be in their class specifically according to OP, the question is about training gate keeping. |
|
Originally Posted By Tim_the_enchanter: I was a cop for 32 years. Trust me, you don't want to train with cops. I've taken classes with cops. I have good friends who are employed as police officers. I've participated in LEO only events, and I've been present as a helping hand for academy classes. The percentage of cops in general who have no firearm handling ability is no more or less than any other profession. My issue is the arrogant hypocrisy of non government, private trainers who will not allow someone into their class who isn't LEO. They clearly have no understanding of the 2nd Amendment and don't deserve my money. |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
| There’s no knowledge being restricted from anyone. LE-only classes don’t have any secret info that you’re missing out on. It’s just usually geared more towards aspects of the job that wouldn’t be applicable or give any benefit to someone working in LE. So they keep it restricted so as to not waste spots. Not worth getting worked up over. |
|
I have trained plenty of LE only classes, and taken quite a few LE only classes. Room entry techniques, weapon retention, how to change between various weapon systems (long gun to pistol and so on), weapon reversal techniques are among the techniques taught. Mostly it is perfecting the basic techniques and having someone point out basic errors in weapon handling. The "special" techniques aren't all that hard to find. FWIW, I don't favor restricting access to any knowledge. Learning how to verbally diffuse angry people will get far more use for both LE and regular citizens. |
|
Precision rifle has some odd beliefs. The issue is that they think loophole theory is some magic trick for snipers to be super ninja and shoot through holes in intermediate barriers in order to camouflage their position. They get SUPER buthurt about it being discussed because they think the magic math formula is a secret. Instructors have been attacked for even discussing it publicly...its silly. Its all over the internet. Its not a secret anymore and never really was. |
|
Originally Posted By DevilPig: There’s no knowledge being restricted from anyone. LE-only classes don’t have any secret info that you’re missing out on. It’s just usually geared more towards aspects of the job that wouldn’t be applicable or give any benefit to someone working in LE. So they keep it restricted so as to not waste spots. Not worth getting worked up over. I'm gonna call B.S. on this. As a civilian that could end up on the receiving end of these "aspects of the job that wouldn’t be applicable or give any benefit to someone (not) working in LE" I'd really like to know just what sort of info is being given to the only folks I know that get to mete out state sanctioned violence then adjudicate themselves guilty or innocent. I'd go very far the other way and say in a truly free and just society that any "training" given to LEO that could be turned toward the civilian population should not be hidden but instead should be recorded and made freely available by mandate. I have a sneaking suspicion that the reason these LEO classes are behind closed doors is the need for the Missy Elliot sized targets so the rounds get on paper and the boredom from watching yet again an instructor explain which end the bullets come out of. |
|
Originally Posted By zeus2you: I'm gonna call B.S. on this. As a civilian that could end up on the receiving end of these "aspects of the job that wouldn’t be applicable or give any benefit to someone (not) working in LE" I'd really like to know just what sort of info is being given to the only folks I know that get to mete out state sanctioned violence then adjudicate themselves guilty or innocent. I'd go very far the other way and say in a truly free and just society that any "training" given to LEO that could be turned toward the civilian population should not be hidden but instead should be recorded and made freely available by mandate. I have a sneaking suspicion that the reason these LEO classes are behind closed doors is the need for the Missy Elliot sized targets so the rounds get on paper and the boredom from watching yet again an instructor explain which end the bullets come out of. Take your tin foil hat off. I'm not against you on this. The person that ADCO referenced in the first post that said "civilians don't need to know" is mostly full of crap. That's just what someone said to get them to quit asking. All the info on police training is out there. And many of the courses are available to everyone else, its just that admission is open. What I was referring to has nothing to do with secret info or anything like that. It's just scenario based such as tactics around a patrol vehicle, shooting from a vehicle, building clearing, etc. And as I said it's all geared towards situations officers might encounter. But it's not anything secret or novel. The main reason they make them LE only is so that it's easier for the instructor to know they're talking to cops about cop situations and it isn't irrelevant or boring for non-LE. It's not a conspiracy. |
|
I've heard from LEO instructors that LEO classes tend to be pretty watered down. The focus is to train to reduce department liability, and the material is geared towards the lowest common denominator (ie the guy who should probably be on the rubber gun squad). There are plenty of quality instructors out there. Choose one that wants your business. |
per aspera ad astra
|
Originally Posted By bpm990d: Unless they are subject to the military justice system they are civilians. I'd not take their class just for that. The term "civilian" clearly carries a very negative connotation for you. Why don't you tell us how much better a "non-civillian" is than a "civilian?" It clearly has to do with much more than the UMCJ. |
|
Originally Posted By DevilPig: Take your tin foil hat off. I'm not against you on this. The person that ADCO referenced in the first post that said "civilians don't need to know" is mostly full of crap. That's just what someone said to get them to quit asking. All the info on police training is out there. And many of the courses are available to everyone else, its just that admission is open. What I was referring to has nothing to do with secret info or anything like that. It's just scenario based such as tactics around a patrol vehicle, shooting from a vehicle, building clearing, etc. And as I said it's all geared towards situations officers might encounter. But it's not anything secret or novel. The main reason they make them LE only is so that it's easier for the instructor to know they're talking to cops about cop situations and it isn't irrelevant or boring for non-LE. It's not a conspiracy. No tinfoil hat here, just a fully free adult taking advantage of my rights to my opinion. I don't assume it's some secret info either and anything I want to know and more is a half decent Google search away. I just think that for the most part we all need to be super diligent in reminding EVERY branch of govt that they work for us at our pleasure and they are not a cut above the citizen as many politicians and LEO especially seem to believe they are. Maybe I've just been lucky/unlucky in mixed classes and overheard convos on the side amongst LEO and it's clear from their language and attitude that many carry a distinct disdain for "civilians". I can only imagine that even more of their true colors would be on display in a closed class. It's not anything to do with info vs no info. |
|
Originally Posted By DevilPig: Take your tin foil hat off. I'm not against you on this. The person that ADCO referenced in the first post that said "civilians don't need to know" is mostly full of crap. That's just what someone said to get them to quit asking. All the info on police training is out there. And many of the courses are available to everyone else, its just that admission is open. What I was referring to has nothing to do with secret info or anything like that. It's just scenario based such as tactics around a patrol vehicle, shooting from a vehicle, building clearing, etc. And as I said it's all geared towards situations officers might encounter. But it's not anything secret or novel. The main reason they make them LE only is so that it's easier for the instructor to know they're talking to cops about cop situations and it isn't irrelevant or boring for non-LE. It's not a conspiracy. I don't think it's a conspiracy, as I said above it's arrogant hypocrisy on the part of the trainer. I know tactics and "learning secrets" aren't the issue. If you want to learn something no one teaches read the book, Fry The Brain. The idea to me, that the instructors think the boot will come down on their necks with any less weight than it will mine when given the order is what baffles me. The trainers refusal to include those whose help they may need against the armed enforcement group of the executive branch of the government, when the order is handed down could be the death of them. |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
|
Originally Posted By bigbore: I don't think it's a conspiracy, as I said above it's arrogant hypocrisy on the part of the trainer. I know tactics and "learning secrets" aren't the issue. If you want to learn something no one teaches read the book, Fry The Brain. The idea to me, that the instructors think the boot will come down on their necks with any less weight than it will mine when given the order is what baffles me. The trainers refusal to include those whose help they may need against the armed enforcement group of the executive branch of the government, when the order is handed down, could be the death of them. Yeah, I agree that it sounded like the trainer was being a bit arrogant. But there's a-holes everywhere. There's plenty of legit high speed guys that teach tactics that far surpass most LE training who train exclusively "civilians". But FWIW I haven't met many that refuse to teach firearms related tactics to non LE that they'd teach LE. At least not recently. Years ago it was far more common for things to be more compartmentalized. That's definitely not the case with bomb schools and stuff like that, but I'm sure someone here would complain about that too. |
|
Originally Posted By Gunner226: The term "civilian" clearly carries a very negative connotation for you. Why don't you tell us how much better a "non-civillian" is than a "civilian?" It clearly has to do with much more than the UMCJ. Au contraire, it has no such connotation to me, but to some people it does. I've met plenty of them that have never served in the military but still like to throw around the term civilian. It's usually someone that processes pistol permits in a state that's not shall-issue. |
|
A couple of the places I trained were LE only. It was mainly because it streamlined the application process. They didn't want to have to background check people and the non LE classes had kooks and felons showing up along with people who had non functional firearms, self made holsters, and all kinds of bizarre gear. When they went to LE only, they had a known and vetted client base that knew what the baseline was for duty gear and guns. It wasn't a 100% solution...but they didn't have guys showing up with Hi Points and using their pocket for a holster or trying to run a class where one guy can't get his AR to work because he brought wolf ammo and a junk rifle. |
|
There is no "secret sauce" in PR or in any shooting discipline for that matter. The fundamentals and TTP's are, for the most part, universal. There may be some differences from one instructor to the next and from one school to another but that is typically a matter of the "pedigree" of the instructor or the owner/operator of the school. Classes restricted to LE are/were usually based on maximizing the number of slots for LEO's or in the case of an agency sponsoring the course not wanting their course marketed as "open enrollment". Smells like "marketing" to me. |
Best Regards,
TonyF
Training Forum Moderator
"No such thing as tough. There's trained and untrained. Which one are you?" (Denzel Washington -- Man on Fire)
TonyF
Training Forum Moderator
"No such thing as tough. There's trained and untrained. Which one are you?" (Denzel Washington -- Man on Fire)