Originally Posted By SpanishInquisition:
It's hard to Rambo in a team environment. You have to have both defensive and offensive members on your team, and a plan.

We usually put two defenders on the opponent goal, a shooter to repeatedly shoot our team goal, overwatch for that shooter, and whatever is left over are roamers.

Originally Posted By R_S:
Some interesting thoughts OP.

I've done IDPA, various other competitive shooting, Laser Tag, Paintball, etc.

There is perhaps something to be learned from each.

James Yeager used to say MINDSET, TACTICS, SKILLS, GEAR... in that order.

Most people get fixated on GEAR.  Some go beyond that and get fixated on SKILLS (ie competitive shooters).

But the truth is that MINDSET and TACTICS are usually the difference between success and failure.  Sure, if your pistol fails or if you don't know how to use it, that is also a problem.  You can have the best pistol in the world with the best skills in the world... but if you aren't willing to use it when your life is on the line or accidentally put yourself deep into a hole that its hard to recover from you can still loose.

Laser Tag has the element of terrain.  In real life METT-TC matters.  Seizing the high ground matters.  Using cover matters.  The element of surprise matters.  Initiative matters.

Many years ago, during a family day event my Guard unit went head-to-head against another Guard unit in Laser Tag.  The scenario would be generally defined as a "meeting engagement".  Each unit was allowed into the Laser Tag arena at the same time.  

I made sure my unit knew where to shoot (shoulder sensors are usually the easiest targets) and exactly what to do (follow me RUNNING to the high ground at TOP SPEED)

The winner in a meeting engagement is the one who gets there "First-est with the Most-est".  Our unit ran into position on the high ground, covering all the entrances to the upper level.  At the same time we were sneaky, using cover to hide our movement.

The commander of the other unit made a MAJOR tactical error.  They proceeded slowly and cautiously in a staggered column... attempting to cover everything in a 360 degree radius, but failing to watch what was going on in the upper level.  

Once my unit was in position, we took aim and I gave the command to open fire.  For the first moment the opposing unit was stunned.  All at once our fire came out of "nowhere" and we tagged most of their people.  After they overcame the initial shock, they decided to move faster and seek some cover.  But we had them trapped like rats in a maze, poring down death from above in nearly every direction.  For most of the game we kept the opposing force "trapped" below, scattered, running, and attempting to find adequate cover.

At that point our team had a 3-to-1 scoring advantage.

Then some of my guys got cocky and decided to advance into the lower level, pursing their prey.  Weakening their blocking position was a mistake and a few of the opposing forces made it to the upper level.  I was ruthless and made the lives of the few that made it to the upper level a living hell.  But the disruption allowed the opposing force to recover somewhat.  Our team finished with a 2-to-1 score advantage and my commanders who were watching were all smiles with a mix of astonishment

It was a lesson in tactics.  You have to use the appropriate tactics for the situation.

Originally Posted By chibajoe:
Yeah, things are a whole lot different when the range is bi-derctional, even if it's just for fun.  Laser Tag, airsoft, paintball, FOF all teach you things about what to do and what not to do in dynamic (and chaotic) situations that no amount of watching videos or range time will do.

You learn real quick that being in good shape is really important; running around with a gun and carrier, even for 10 minutes, takes stamina, especially in the middle of summer.

Originally Posted By lazyengineer:



it was

I will say, the settimgs we were at were more video-gane based click fest woth near instant reset, which  i suspect is nearly equally terrible training, as I feel.like that will get you killed about as fast.  

(or that's what my internal hamsters are telling me to say - to temper just how humiliating a trashing I took!)

Originally Posted By lazyengineer:

An interesting post.  And I made the same error.  I went in with a live-fire mindset of overagression will get you killed fast, and then you're out.  But in this game, you're only out for 5 seconds.  So while I'm being cautious, I'm bum rushed or otherwises killed quickly by guys who had no fear of being shot, because it's not lethal or painful.  So in this setting, caution was death.  

I also didn't really understand the equipment and was confused by it.  One second it would say 4 shots in the gun and another second it wouldn't.  I'd "shoot" and think it fired, and shoot again, but did it fire, is there a reset?  The feedback from the gun was confusing and unfamiliar, and in such a dynamic setting with flashing lights everywhere, I couldn't figure out how my gun worked, and in particular, the trigger gun reset time and the tells that it was reset and actually firing.  There was no training.  

I tried aiming a lot, which again, was a major error, since it's a close quarter fast dynamic event, and the I guess there was a button that made the guns shoot faster some guys figured out?  

Finally I said fuck it, and figured in the 5 second reset window when I'm dead, is when I'll move, so I rushed their base while dead.  At which point the two base campers just shot me non-stop, while I was over there, which didn't help.

It was definately a frustrating experience, but big failures are where you do big learning.  So I'm kind of interested in what I can learn from this for actual real life.  I'm not sure, as in this game you come back to life, so tactics of CQB rush that cause "victory" here, I suspect will leave you dead and bleeding out in 5 seconds flat, in an actual encounter.   Or am I just saying that to appease my ego for sucking at that run sooooooo bad?!

It was fascinating to me how my live fire experience and training was not only useless, but I'm pretty sure heavily worked against me, with excessive caution.  And the flip side of that, is this horrible traning for actual live fire in real life?   Maybe, but I will say, the human dynamic nature of other humans movin around and engaging unpredicably, was a HUGE - HOLY FUCK to someone who only practices and engages in the "DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE COURSE OF FIRE?" IDPA world.