Originally Posted By UnaStamus:
The issue isn’t whether they’re aware of it so much as it is convincing people to dedicate time and resources to proper training. Training was at its apex around 2009-2013 following Magpul releasing their videos.  We were seeing training courses filling up within a couple weeks of posting.  Courses were being capped on students due to high enrollment and classes had to be run in 2 relays to accommodate the students.  This was with classes with top level instructors like Pat Rogers, Louis Awerbuck and Jeff Gonzalez, among others.  And good luck getting into a Magpul course, because those filled up within 48 hours of posting.  If you were even a reputable local or regional trainer like the group I’m with, you were still doing quite well.  If you had the facilities, you were doing well.  This was why clowns like James Yeager and his buffoonery with Tactical Response (i.e. where they were teaching ballistic masturbation ammo management, or CQB by packing 20+ fudds at a time into a shoot house) gained so much notoriety.  Or how Front Sight got so popular despite their pyramid scheme memberships, garbage instructors, unsafe reputation and...well...theIr alleged contentious religious affiliations.

Unfortunately, there was a steady denouement after about 2013 until the training world sort of flat-lined in 2016 or 2017.  Now it’s difficult to get students into classes.  Before, a 3-day class was common.  Now, we have to run 2-day courses because we can’t get people to commit to the time, ammo needs and lodging/travel expenses that come with it.  We can fill up a day class, but we can’t fill up a weekend class.  We used to get guys coming to our training courses from across state lines, and now we have difficulty getting people to leave their own area code in the same state to go to training.  

Summer of 2013 after Sandy Hook, ammunition was still scarce and people couldn’t get jack for ammo, mags or quality rifles.  Top level instructors were able to secure contracts/deals with ammo manufacturers or distributors to be able to sell ammo directly to students at classes for a reasonable rate.  This was usually done by 1k round cases priced at $400/case, which at the time was extremely reasonable.  For us smaller guys, we couldn’t secure ammo at a reasonable rate so we had to dial back the round counts and reduce number of training days.  I know for my training group, our saving grace was the S&W M&P22 rifles and 500rd bricks of .22LR going for $69.99.  It took until 2014 before ammo prices began dropping back down (somewhat) and stabilized, and inventories were replenished.  By that point, we were seeing a marked reduction in student enrollment across the board.  I remember going to a Larry Vickers carbine course in 2014 where we were only 1/2 full...and this was before people started to figure out that LAV was just mailing it in and barely trying, and we well-behind the training curve of other instructors.  Fun fact- I ran an LMT 308MWS topped with a Leupold Mark6 1-6x in that course.).  Regardless, I never truly saw the training industry recover.

As instructors gain popularity, they will have an influx of students to their courses, but that eventually mellows out.   What I see in those classes is that it’s a lot of the same crowd over and over again.  A lot are LE or MIL, or former MIL, with some CIV’s mixed in.  I’d say that less than 40% of students going to courses for national-level instructors are CIV-only background.  In contrast, for smaller operations like mine, we are seeing the opposite where 60% or more are CIV background.  

For us, the number one constructive comment we get from students is “we wish you were closer to the metro” since we’re out in the sticks by a couple hours.  We’ve had students tell us that they would pack our classes with their friends if we were within a 30 minute drive of the metro area, but that’s unfortunate because we don’t have the $1M+ it would take to purchase the land to make that happen.  We would also likely never see a return.  As a result, instructors around our metro area (Minneapolis/St Paul) rent out private ranges and gun clubs for training and it turns into a competition for space with every Tom, Dick and Harry that’s teaching a 4-hour CCW course.  

I talk to people at gun ranges and gun shops all the time.  I also talk to people at work (LE) and other places like my cigar shop.  The same thing is said by everyone, which is “that’d be cool.” Followed by no commitment or follow-through on their part.  People just don’t want to commit the time and resources to training.  I can’t tell you how many people think that a 4 hour permit to carry course mandated by the State is sufficient for them to be proficient with their gun.  Or the military guys who think that because they shot their M16A2s in training in 1998 that they’re still crack marksmen and ballistics experts.  There are a myriad of reasons why people don’t take training that goes far beyond them not being aware it exists.

Originally Posted By Harv24:


Pretty much this

It takes some cash to hit up a 3 day carbine class 2 states away.
lodging
ammo
travel time and gas
course fee


And most males still believe they were born with the abilities to fuck, shoot and drive with little to no instruction.

The winding down of Wars in the GWOT also pushed training to the back burner for many.

And now an ammo shortage....tough time to me an instructor.

Originally Posted By TMA:
Everything that follows is my personal opinion based on what I have observed over 20 (plus) years of taking self-defense training.  During that time I have taken over 50 multi-day defensive firearms classes from nationally known trainers (John Farnam, Mike Janich, Massad Ayoob, Suarez, Pat Rogers, SouthNarc, Andy Stanford, James Yeager (before Iraq), Greg “Sully” Sullivan, and others).  I have been an adjunct instructor for John Farman (DTI) for the last 15 years and was a private student of Michael Janich (MBC) for 6 years.

You are making the mistake of thinking that most gun owners think like you do, they don’t.  Or that your (and my) thought process makes sense, it doesn’t.  Almost everybody who takes a defensive firearms class (including myself) would get more benefit from loosing ten pounds and consistently doing some aerobic exercise than taking firearms training, but losing weight and exercising every day just isn’t much fun.

Short answer to your question of: “How much of the gun community is aware and actively seeking defensive training?” is probably a small fraction of 1%.  Most of the people who train are actually doing it for entertainment.  To put this into perspective; what percentage of gun owners have a concealed carry permit.  Of the small portion of gun owners who have a carry permit, what percentage carries on a daily basis?  The super small group of people who carry consistently are the individuals the trainers make their livings from.

Random thoughts/comments:

About fifteen years ago John Farnam told the story of meeting with Colt Executives and recommending some minor (easy) changes to their 1911 platform to improve its functionality/usefulness as a defensive firearm.  They told him that they had done surveys and found that (on average) 97% of the people who purchase a Colt pistol also purchase one box of ammunition.  The surveys found that when the typical Colt pistol owner died (of old age?), the pistol was still in the factory box (unloaded) and either 6 or 7 rounds were missing from the box of ammunition.  Based on this information they saw no benefit to Colt or the customer in changing their handguns.  The small percentage of gun owners who actually wanted a better pistol could send them to a gunsmith for the improvements.

About twenty years ago a friend of mine, who is heavily into trap and skeet shooting and knew I am heavily into defensive firearms training, brought a national level skeet shooter into town to teach a two day seminar (for $200).  He was looking for students and wanted me to signup.  I told him I was not interested in shooting skeet; he looked at me like I had a dildo growing out of my head.  It was a nationally recognized skeet champion teaching a two day class for a ridiculously low price, what was wrong with me?  This is the same guy who I couldn’t get to take a defensive firearms class because he saw no value in pretending (training) to “shoot people”.

YMMV

Originally Posted By TMA:

...About fifteen years ago John Farnam told the story of meeting with Colt Executives and recommending some minor (easy) changes to their 1911 platform to improve its functionality/usefulness as a defensive firearm.  They told him that they had done surveys and found that (on average) 97% of the people who purchase a Colt pistol also purchase one box of ammunition.  The surveys found that when the typical Colt pistol owner died (of old age?), the pistol was still in the factory box (unloaded) and either 6 or 7 rounds were missing from the box of ammunition.  Based on this information they saw no benefit to Colt or the customer in changing their handguns.  The small percentage of gun owners who actually wanted a better pistol could send them to a gunsmith for the improvements.
...

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

Rifle ranges also are needed, not only for the National Guard, but also for the citizen population. To shoot well is a large part of the education of the soldier; and if the Government can arouse such an interest in shooting, in not only the organized but also the unorganized militia, that our male population shall be familiar with the accurate use of the rifle, we shall have gone far towards evening up the advantage the foreigner gains by his universal conscription. Much can be accomplished in this direction, if the United States will offer free the use of the military rifle on ranges to be established near our large towns. Such ranges would also be available for the instruction of the National Guard. Their cost would be little in comparison with the benefits to be obtained. The cost of sufficient target ranges and camp sites for the whole country will hardly exceed that of one or two new battleships

Originally Posted By akgunwinner:


No, but I also don’t live in a war zone, nor is my family a target of interest for anyone.

Ill be honest and say that haven’t taken any formal defensive training courses. I’ve gained a lot of insight from countless hours of YouTube study and practice though. When it comes down to it, I don’t have the time or the money to spend on a multi day training course. And I have my doubts whether a 4-6hr course is really that useful.

$500-1200 training fees
$300-1500 (‘rona 5.56 prices) in ammo
$100-300 lodging
And two days

So $900-3000 roughly. It’s a commitment to take a chance on something that may or may not be good training and useful in the future. Yes, I’d love to do it some day though.

And most males still believe they were born with the abilities to fuck, shoot and drive with little to no instruction.

Originally Posted By chibajoe:
I think cost is the big issue.  In the training heyday, a 3 day course would set you back about $500-$700 total; that's including training, ammo, lodging, food, etc.  These days, that would barely pay for your ammo, much less anything else.  Dropping $500 on a fun weekend where you learn stuff is one thing, but dropping $1500-$2000 for the same thing is a whole 'nother matter.  Not a lot of people have the disposable income to do that, especially with the economy heading the way it is.

Originally Posted By R_S:


There is certainly truth to that.  Cost matters.  Ammo availability matters.

Instructors need to get more innovative.  Using Airsoft, .22LR, dryfire, and service caliber I ran a 1-day Tactical Rifle class where students trained to achieve commonly established standards for individual ammo costs of about $50 each.  400-500 trigger pulls for $50 isn't bad.  Service caliber ammo is primarily for confirmation.

I've run 2-gun airsoft courses with pistol/rifle combined round counts of ~400 for around $3 in ammo costs.  Students rapidly learned a hell of a lot about gun handling in a safe environment.  Critical Skills tested included moving to cover, barricade shooting, rifle standing position, rifle kneeling/squat position, rifle prone position, double taps, multiple targets, barricade order shooting, 3 second rush, safe gun handling, transitioning to pistol, pistol standing position, pistol kneeling/squat position, and time pressure.  Compare that to live fire events/classes where safety concerns too often prevent holsters and transitions to pistol.

Originally Posted By StukPig:
From airsoft, I also have a S&W M&P 15-22 and a TacSol .22lr conversion kit for my Glock.  The 15-22 is hands down my favorite gun I own.  It is just downright a blast to shoot, especially suppressed.  It is set up almost identical to my duty rifle and I have a plenty of .22 to train with.  The TacSol kit on my Glock is a great tool as well.  I get the same training benefit of using the actual gun/trigger I normally use, but the price benefit of shooting less costly .22lr.  Since there are some inherent issues with .22 and malfunctions that result, that just aids in the training aspect of shooting both those platforms.  I will get unexpected malfunctions that I need to work through which in turn increases my proficiency.  

For those reading this thread to get ideas on your personal training, look into airsoft and .22lr options that are similar to what you currently use as your defensive tools.  Although there is an upfront cost associated in getting these training aids, they will allow you to get additional training repetitions at a fraction of the cost to live fire.  That will allow you to have a stronger foundation for when you go to the range and shoot your more expensive ammo.

For those reading this to gain ideas on how to get their friends and family to get more training, I hope these recommendations have been helpful.

For what its worth, I'm just a dude.  No one special.  I appreciate you all taking the time to read through my opinion.

Originally Posted By StukPig:
1 - Cost: a lot of people whether they are cops (who are notoriously cheap... beyond cheap, cheap is too expensive for a lot of LEO's) or civilians are already shell shocked by the cost of a gun,  let alone the associated accessories (ie holsters, mags, lights, slings, optics, etc) and ammo.  Then you couple that with the cost of a class and possible travel costs, they tend to shy away.  

Originally Posted By Skunkeye:
I like training classes because they are fun, and you might learn something, but they are very expensive for the incremental improvements you might see.

If you are serious, the internet can provide nearly all the instruction you need for free.

USPSA, 3 Gun, Precision rifle matches can provide reality calibration and motivation for improvement.

Originally Posted By R_S:
Great comments StukPig!

Originally Posted By Piratepast40:
I feel very fortunate that our gun club sponsors defensive AR and defensive handgun courses.  Cost for the Level 1 courses is $100 and Level 2 is $125.  Each class is 6 hours and includes classroom, dry fire, and live fire exercises.  I've been to both Level 1 courses as well as the optional skills clinic.  I'm also signed up for the Level 2 classes.  The classes are held on Saturdays so easier for more people to make it.

I'm active in competition and both of these classes were eye openers and provided significant challenges.  It's a completely different world when you're thinking about shooting on a two way range.  Dry fire and live fire are critical follow ups if you want to get the most out of this type of training.

Originally Posted By jaqufrost:
I prefer offensive training

Originally Posted By IdahoDoug:
The limited amount of training I've been too, spends more time teaching you why you shouldn't shoot someone and how much it will cost you no matter how right you are. ie Kyle
After that four hour tutorial you get to go focus on the front site for a bit just in case you need practice to be charged as a murderer when saving your own life.