Posted: 1/29/2007 8:36:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Hawkeye][Edited]
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Harv’s Drill, as suggested by Harv24, is an exercise in practical marksmanship. Using IDPA type silhouette targets (with an 8” circle in the center of the thoracic area) placed at 18 yards, the course of fire is as follows. > Fire 6 rounds on target from the standing position. > Change position to a kneeling position and fire another 6 rounds on target. > Perform a speed reload. > Change position to the prone position and fire another 6 rounds on target. The objective of the exercise is to keep all 18 shots inside the 8” circle while performing the entire drill in under 18 seconds. I decided to give Harv’s Drill a try while I was breaking in my new Colt 6450 9mm carbine with EoTech 551 sight. A Pact Club Timer was used to record the timing of the shots. I had to make a few concessions due to the restrictions/limitations of the facility where I was shooting. First, firing from prone was not allowed at this facility. In order to simulate firing from the prone position, I stood up from the previous kneeling position, leaned over and rested my elbows on the bench. This was not as stable a position as prone, but it was as close as I could get within the restrictions of the facility. Second, I was not able to use a standard kneeling position (with the support elbow resting on the knee) as this would have positioned me to fire directly into the shooting bench. The bench was approximately 40” high. Instead, I fired from a high kneeling position (without any elbow support) as if firing over a barricade (cover.) While not as steady as a standard kneeling position, I thought the benefit of practicing as if shooting over cover was worthwhile. Thirdly, instead of the speed reload, I performed a reload with magazine retention. (I just didn’t care to be dumping my $65.00 original Colt magazines on the deck.  )My first run of Harv’s drill came in at 14.1 seconds with all 18 shots in the 8 inch (minus-zero) circle. The second run was completed in 15.5 seconds with all 18 shots in the “minus-zero” circle and my third run timed in at 15.0 seconds with all 18 shots in the minus-zero circle. The targets are pictured below.    The average group size of all three runs was about 5”, with an average mean radius of 1.43”. Most of the “outlying” shots were fired from the kneeling position. My average split-times between shots were running around 0.5 seconds, with slightly longer splits in the kneeling position and slightly faster splits in the simulated prone position. My split-times when going from the standing position to kneeling position were running around 2 seconds. My splits for performing the reload with magazine retention coupled with changing from the kneeling position to the simulated prone position were averaging about 4 seconds. Give Harv’s Drill a try and post you results! |
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Drills are an outstanding way to gauge progress, and to see where you stand. Big points to anyone who actually trains, instead of just blasting away when they hit the range. Nicely done, now work dry fire and see how much you shave those times down.  ETA- More drills in the training section would probably get it more attention. I started a list of drills and skills that was tacked for people to add to, and it was later removed... I've got no idea why, but I wouldn't mind an IM from whoever did it so at least I can understand the reason. It would have been nice to see that section as a resource. Lastly, I need to get out and shoot Harvs drill! |
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Great post and idea as far as drills are concerned. I find that drils also keep you in shape mentally and physically. Will give Harv's drill a run once it warms up. Stickman, do you have link to you old post? thanks Molon. iso |
"Persistence Over Comes Resistance"
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Thanks for the Credit... But alas.. I cannot take it as I did not invent this drill. I actually learned if from Greg 'Sully" Sullivan from the Defensive edge.... Anyone who knows me,knows I'm not smart enough to invent my own drill.....  But it is a good drill... one of my main ones I like to do... |
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I'll give this drill a run tommorow afternoon. If done from the 50, what is a good time? I'll try and take pictures if I can find the USB cord from my camera to the computer.  It's about time to practice with the old irons anyway, this will be a fun new drill. It would be fun to try from behind cover too. Then during the speed reload you would lean back behind a covered position. |
"Montani semper liberi" - Mountaineers are always free
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Learned that drill in the early 90s while in the Marines. We did it from both - 25 meters / 50 meters (iron sights) -However we had to speed reload at each change of position. "of course at 50 w/ irons we just had to keep it in a specific area in torso - larger than the circle but similar in size to the next larer section" It is a pretty good drill to gauge how you react to pressure, change of position, and having to speed reload. --- Only thing - I would never use $65 mags from COLT - WOW 
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They are men who glide silently through the valley of the shadow of death - yet carry Hell, Fire, and Brimstone in their hands.
If everyone could be Recon then it wouldn't be Recon.
* Where you go - We have been
If everyone could be Recon then it wouldn't be Recon.
* Where you go - We have been
Don't forget to post your results! |
I can't wait until C-Products releases their stainless steel 9mm AR-15 magazines so I can do the drill with a speed reload. The C-Products mags will supposedly retail for less than half the price of the Colt mags. |
| i'm going shootin next week at a range where the owner rocks and it's never busy when i'm there so he leaves me on my own free to do just about whatever as long as it's downrange and i don't shoot myself. gonna try it but where do i get the targets? |
Come and get'm Pelosi...I'll be waiting.
Negative. Not only do they not let you load more than 6 rounds at a time in a magazine at the Island Lake facility, they would probably have a stroke if I fired six rounds in roughly 3 seconds like one does with this drill. |
I purchased the paper IDPA targets from Brownells. I believe the cardboard versions can be purchased directly from IDPA as well as other on-line dealers. The IALEFI-Q Target also has an 8" center ring and is available from on-line dealers.  |
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This seems like something I might have to try. Very informative post, thanks Oh, and gj BA BYE! |
Originally Posted By q3131:
Do you know how many times I've downloaded what I thought was a nice simple Japanese bondage/rape video, and end up getting grossed out by some wierd perverted act?
Do you still have a list of those drills? I also think a tack in the arms and tactics forum would be a great idea. make some use of range time instead of wasting ammo |
"A firearm is like a fine woman. You take care of it and it will take care of you. You don't take care of it and it can be a real Bitch."
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Here are some more links for targets. IDPA paper targets IDPA cardboard targets IALEFI-Q target |
Guys, please hit the "Report" button--right side of every post--and don't quote it to make comments. Your cooperation is appreciated by the mods--there is no point in deliberately making more work for them. 
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"If you are going to be stupid, you gotta be tough." --learned from buckfever34's father
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7 Yard Mozambique Drill Here are some very basic, yet effective drills for developing what I refer to as “defensive shooting” skills. The first drill has been referred to as the Mozambique, failure to stop, two-plus-one and other names. The basic concept is to fire a double-tap to the center of the upper thoracic area and then fire a single shot to the head. Some schools of thought teach that the shooter should lower the weapon after firing the double tap to the chest and asses the need for the shot to the head. I prefer to go directly to the head shot after firing the double-tap to the chest. For this drill set your target at 7 yards. The drill begins with the weapon in the low ready position, (barrel pointed downward at a 45 degree angle.) Upon hearing the buzzer from the timer, bring your weapon up into the firing position and fire a double-tap to the center of the upper thoracic area. Immediately after that, fire a single shot to the head. The objective is to keep all shots to the body within the center “ring” of the upper thoracic area and all shots to the head within the “cranio-occular” area (as denoted by the 3” X 4.5” rectangle on the head of the Front Sight targets.) The goal is to perform the drill within the time constraint of 1.5 seconds. I like to perform three runs of the drill on a single target and average the times. Besides honing the basic marksmanship skills required for this drill, it helps develop a sense of the amount of hold-over necessary at close ranges when using a weapon platform such as the AR-15 due to the height of the sights above the barrel. At a distance of seven yards the hold-over needed is about 2.2”. This drill also emphasizes the findings of the Tueller Drill, that is, an average adult male can charge from a distance of 7 yards and stab you with a knife in a time frame of 1.5 seconds. While this drill might sound easy, it can be a challenge to fire the three shots accurately within the constraint of 1.5 seconds. Here are some pics of targets from some of my better runs of the 7 yard Mosambique drill from a shooting session today. Give the drill a try for yourself and post your results!   to be continued . . . |
Looks like a good drill. I guess I need to check the other board for what you're talking about. I've got some drills that I could contrinute. |
But Phoebus, I AM a tool.
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Does anyone remember a post that gave directions on making IDPA targets out of paper grocery bags? I think Tony F authored the post, but I could be wrong. It was a really slick way to get free IDPA targets with very little work. It was so simple it was brillliant. |
"Montani semper liberi" - Mountaineers are always free
OK, here it is. I guess I should have searched for it first. Oops. This is the link. You guys will love it. IDPA grocery bags Enjoy!
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"Montani semper liberi" - Mountaineers are always free
That's pretty slick, I haven't seen a paper bag in years though. |
"Aimless your a fag!"-Goatboy as quoted in Field and Stream
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Originally Posted By Stickman: I started a list of drills and skills that was tacked for people to add to, and it was later removed... I've got no idea why, but I wouldn't mind an IM from whoever did it so at least I can understand the reason. It would have been nice to see that section as a resource. Stick, there is still one of yours tacked at the top. Is there a different one thats missing? |
Protego quod vallo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
Thats the way Sully taught it to us as well. It's a mag change between each position. |
I'd rather be out shooting right now.
/1*\ -CY6- M.O.S.S.
/1*\ -CY6- M.O.S.S.
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It's also a good idea to practice this drill one handed and weak handed. Be sure not to cheat and use your 'dead' arm to get into the prone. BTW, I practice this drill but the only time I've used the timer is in classes. Another "Sully" lesson we hear constantly in class is "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast". When you start getting good, or are consistent in your times if you use a timer, add a dummy round to each mag to make things interesting. CY6 bulletcatchR |
Prepare 3 mags with 6 rounds in each mag for the drill, the way Sully teaches it. CY6 bulletcatchR |
| The El Presidente drill is pretty good too. It's not very likely a shooter could survive the scenario (in fact the person that actually experienced it in real life died in the shoot out), but it is a good way to employ several techniques into one drill. |
"Montani semper liberi" - Mountaineers are always free
If I could add one thing to all of this, do it while moving too. |
I'd rather be out shooting right now.
/1*\ -CY6- M.O.S.S.
/1*\ -CY6- M.O.S.S.
I absolutely agree with you. I don't know of any public ranges in my state that let you shoot while moving, but whenever I'm on a private outdoor range I try to work shooting on the move into my drills and I routinely practice dry fire drills with movement. |
fixed it for you. it should never be referred to as your "weak hand." a really good shooter is almost equally good with both hands. so i don't sound like i'm trying to blow my own horn, i need plenty of work in this field. one good way to work on this is to go to the range one day and do all of your drills with your non-dominant hand. also, it would be great if there was a tacked thread that was nothing but drill sheets. i have a few i could post. |
 For the record, the drill that the OP has labeled "Harv's Drill" is actually called ElDiablo / The Devil's Drill or simply The Eighteen Drill* as taught to Harv (and BulletcatchR, photoman, and me) by Greg "Sully" Sullivan of The Defensive Edge. 18 Yards, 3 mags (one in the gun, two spares), 6 rounds in each mag. From the buzzer: Fire six rounds standing. change magazines Fire six rounds kneeling. change magazines Fire six rounds prone. An acceptable time to complete the firing rotation is 18 seconds. If you take longer than 18 seconds or drop rounds outside the specified kill zone, you have failed. Most folks in class will start from "low ready", and I've even seen some start with a sight picture. Many will fail to make time or put all the rounds on target the first few times they try this drill. That many includes me (I prefer to start the drill from "Sul"). Throwing in type one malfunctions makes it even more interesting.  I don't think I've ever seen a faster time than about 14 seconds. *El Diablo = 6 6 6 = 18 |
I reserve the right to be my own first responder.
Having been awakened, carrying the Glock message.
Having been awakened, carrying the Glock message.
ladder drills
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I'd rather be out shooting right now.
/1*\ -CY6- M.O.S.S.
/1*\ -CY6- M.O.S.S.
FMD
I keep telling these guys I'm not that smart and can't take credit for this...Luckily you know better...
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