Posted: 8/16/2022 9:40:33 AM EDT
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I took an AR Carbine course a few months ago and the instructors repeatedly harped on using slick rifles with nothing on them but a red dot, to the point of making fun of students rifles. I had an 11.5" BCM w/ red dot, magnifier, light, back-up sights, suppressor and hand stop. It's my go-to firearm in case of something. I always thought I should train with what you're going to use? What do you all think? I will say for an upcoming Appleseed, I'm stripping down 22s to just irons for my kids and I. |
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I've done both, but generally my preference is to run the rifle as it would be for its intended purpose, not stripped down. And that's one of my pet peeves - instructors breaking balls on student firearms. One thing you will definitely not get at an Appleseed is any insults thrown towards your rifles. We want the students to learn on what they're comfortable with and used to. How old are your kids? I would use that as a guide about whether or not to run scopes vs irons. The vast majority of shooters run scoped rifles at our events. If your kids are young, under 10, and will probably just be shooting off sandbags and not messing with the sling, I'd say let them use a scoped rifle. Let them focus on being safe, learning good trigger discipline, and with the scope they might actually have some decent groups. If they're older (and ostensibly more patient), and you want them to learn good, foundational skills (kinda like learning how to drive a stick-shift car), then let them run with iron sights. Feel free to hit me up via PM if you have any other questions about Appleseed. |
| A weapon light belongs on every fighting rifle. Always. I've learned this lesson the hard way in Iraq, had to clear an old abandoned factory while in sector.... Since it was a daylight mission I didn't put my weapons light on my M4. Felt pretty stupid clearing a factory building with a surefire in one hand and my M4 in the other. |
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Originally Posted By intheburbs: I've done both, but generally my preference is to run the rifle as it would be for its intended purpose, not stripped down. And that's one of my pet peeves - instructors breaking balls on student firearms. One thing you will definitely not get at an Appleseed is any insults thrown towards your rifles. We want the students to learn on what they're comfortable with and used to. How old are your kids? I would use that as a guide about whether or not to run scopes vs irons. The vast majority of shooters run scoped rifles at our events. If your kids are young, under 10, and will probably just be shooting off sandbags and not messing with the sling, I'd say let them use a scoped rifle. Let them focus on being safe, learning good trigger discipline, and with the scope they might actually have some decent groups. If they're older (and ostensibly more patient), and you want them to learn good, foundational skills (kinda like learning how to drive a stick-shift car), then let them run with iron sights. Feel free to hit me up via PM if you have any other questions about Appleseed. I've done a half-day Appleseed with one kid and we had a blast. In October I'll be taking a 7 year old and almost 9 year old to the full 2-day course that's .22lr only. I have a Ruger 10/22 setup with tech sights for one and a S&W M&P15-22 for the other. Both with suppressors and GI Slings. I'll be using a home-brew AR conversion with a Beyer barrel. I was planning on only using iron sights all around, would you recommend a red dot or scope instead? |
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Originally Posted By Actiondiver: Who are the instructors, what is their background & rationale, maturity, and what’s the school. They sound immature & “bro” Its Green Ops Overall it was a great class and I had a good time, this just kind of stuck in my head. Doesn't make sense to me personally to strip down a rifle for training when I've always heard train as you'd fight or whatever. I think there was a ex Green Beret guy and a bunch of other ex military and competition shooters. Again, class was great, I was just curious what the brain trust thought about that. Also, anybody who brought plate carriers got serious flak, called Navy SEALs or whatever. I didn't bring one but thought it may be a good idea to try out the gear during an all day class. I just wore a battle belt fully setup and I'm glad I did, I made some minor tweaks to it after. ETA: I plan on taking more classes with them and would recommend them. I'm not trying to dump on them. |
never underestimate the stupidity of other people
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no, mission dictates gear. Are you training to win a USPSA open match? Bring an open gun. Want to get better with your home defense/SHTF rifle? Bring it. No better way to shake out what works and what doesn't than to actually use the damn thing. 
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"every exercise is a low back exercise if you do it wrong enough"
@MacManus
@MacManus
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No, but I make changes over time. Set your rifle up the way you want it. If you make changes to it over time that’s OK. Use it and find what works for you. Anyone else opinion doesn’t matter. Most guys I know set up different for different uses. Form follows Function |
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Originally Posted By matai: I've done a half-day Appleseed with one kid and we had a blast. In October I'll be taking a 7 year old and almost 9 year old to the full 2-day course that's .22lr only. I have a Ruger 10/22 setup with tech sights for one and a S&W M&P15-22 for the other. Both with suppressors and GI Slings. I'll be using a home-brew AR conversion with a Beyer barrel. I was planning on only using iron sights all around, would you recommend a red dot or scope instead? It's up to the individual Shoot Boss at your event, but generally speaking a 7 and 9 year-old are going to start on sandbags/rests. How experienced are they? What do you want them to get out of this? How are the rifles normally configured? |
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Originally Posted By matai: I took an AR Carbine course a few months ago and the instructors repeatedly harped on using slick rifles with nothing on them but a red dot, to the point of making fun of students rifles. The only thing I've done is removed a sound suppressor, because I didn't want to deal with the heat and increased fouling for a whole week of shooting 300+ rounds daily. Also, towards the end of the week, I kept a needle oiler in my pocket to lube the BCG. (This led me to later buy the MIAD oil bottle so I could stow it inside the pistol grip.) If somebody wants to perform in a class wearing armor, either that they may utilize during a response, or just because they want to try out that setup, it should be encouraged. Armor changes things when someone isn't used to it, and it can change where (and how) you want gear attached. |
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Originally Posted By steviesterno16: no, mission dictates gear. Are you training to win a USPSA open match? Bring an open gun. Want to get better with your home defense/SHTF rifle? Bring it. No better way to shake out what works and what doesn't than to actually use the damn thing. This, I have taken 4 Carbine classes with 3 different guns. It's a great way to test them and any other gear you use in the class. |
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Originally Posted By matai: Yep, seen those videos, part of the reason I was surprised they discourage it in person. Originally Posted By matai: Originally Posted By JBecker_72: Funny, on their website they have YouTube videos of students wearing armor and using rifles equipped with accessories. Yep, seen those videos, part of the reason I was surprised they discourage it in person. |
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I have trained several times with Green Ops and this is the first time I have heard of something like this. I am quite surprised...does not sound like the dudes I trained with a few years ago. The proprietor of Green Ops lurks on these forums and may chime in. I, for certain, would like to hear his take on this, as I always ran my rifle as is (optic, BUIS, weapon light). |
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Originally Posted By matai: I took an AR Carbine course a few months ago and the instructors repeatedly harped on using slick rifles with nothing on them but a red dot, to the point of making fun of students rifles. I had an 11.5" BCM w/ red dot, magnifier, light, back-up sights, suppressor and hand stop. It's my go-to firearm in case of something. I always thought I should train with what you're going to use? What do you all think? I will say for an upcoming Appleseed, I'm stripping down 22s to just irons for my kids and I. My answer is that they're idiots. I saw no such thing at any time with either Gunsite or Compass with Gunsite being Jeff Cooper famous and Compass being local and not really heard of. The cadre at both were full of BTDT's. Originally Posted By mo4040: I have trained several times with Green Ops and this is the first time I have heard of something like this. I am quite surprised...does not sound like the dudes I trained with a few years ago. The proprietor of Green Ops lurks on these forums and may chime in. I, for certain, would like to hear his take on this, as I always ran my rifle as is (optic, BUIS, weapon light). |
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Originally Posted By matai: Doesn't make sense to me personally to strip down a rifle for training when I've always heard train as you'd fight or whatever. THIS. Its great for students to try different things and test different gear, but I always strongly recommend to my students to have everything as close to real world as possible. Train with your carry pistol. Train with your home defense and vehicle long gun. You want to shake out any potential issues with your guns and gear as soon as possible... not during the fight. Gear is great, but knowing how to fight with YOUR gear is critical. |
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Recommendations sure all day long but adamant something be a certain way? Maybe only if it was listed as a prerequisite. Problem is (and this is broader than this subject) Sure there are some bad ass combat vets and top shooters out there but that does not mean they make good instructors. Green Ops...Im shocked Mike Green pretty rational and smart dude...was it him or dudes working for him? Is there missing context? |
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Originally Posted By Stukas87: Recommendations sure all day long but adamant something be a certain way? Maybe only if it was listed as a prerequisite. Problem is (and this is broader than this subject) Sure there are some bad ass combat vets and top shooters out there but that does not mean they make good instructors. Green Ops...Im shocked Mike Green pretty rational and smart dude...was it him or dudes working for him? Is there missing context? I don't know about any more context, they were just harping on running slick ARs all day. Again, fantastic training, I had a blast. My only question is if you all agree with this. My opinion was to just take my go-to carbine, stick in the car as-is and run it all day and pay attention to any quirks. Not trying to dump on them at all. I'm hoping to take an AK class and a Pistol class from them this year. |
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They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, 1775
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, 1775
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Making fun of students under any circumstance is f'ed up. That would have been the last time they received any more of my training dollars, even if I was not a target of their derision. They should have refrained from humiliating students AND explained why they suggested a "slick" rifle if it was germane to their curriculum, otherwise it's just their opinion and we all know what those are like. Question: Was there any mention in their course description about anything resembling a requirement for a slick rifle? If not, that's all the more reason to consider them unfit to teach. If you came to a class I was running with all that gear attached to your rifle I would have turned it into a constructive discussion, first privately, and then I would have asked your permission to discuss it amongst the entire class if I was one who advocated a "slick" rifle, which BTW I am not. That said, there is well-designed gear and poorly designed gear and there is also the matter of what is truly a need and what is not. But a "slick" rifle just for the sake of a "slick" rifle is an immature position for an instructor to take. ETA: To answer your thread title, no I don't change my setup for training. |
Best Regards,
TonyF
Training Forum Moderator
"... there's trained and untrained" (Denzel Washington -- Man on Fire)
TonyF
Training Forum Moderator
"... there's trained and untrained" (Denzel Washington -- Man on Fire)
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The only recommendations I have seen from instructors was after a stoppage. Usually, be aware of buying the cheapest stuff. Mossberg AR with Wolf ammo stuck case. Well they are both the cheapest options so be aware. I loaned a cleaning rod to clear it. China RDS that couldn't hold zero, not a Sig, it was before those. Again, cheapest option may fail. Unknow brand stuck case, instructor demonstrates mortar and buffer threads strip out. Cheap plastic lower. Owner didn't even know the difference. Instructor loaned him a rifle to finish the class. |
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Originally Posted By intheburbs: It's up to the individual Shoot Boss at your event, but generally speaking a 7 and 9 year-old are going to start on sandbags/rests. How experienced are they? What do you want them to get out of this? How are the rifles normally configured? @intheburbs 9 year old is very competent but usually shoots from a resting position. Can operate a S&W 15-22, 10/22, CZ457, 22/45 completely independent. Hits the target every time and is safe. I took the 7 year old last night and he did pretty well on the CZ457 and 15-22. Needs help operating and closer attention. Did much better with a red dot on the 15-22. The problem is both are cross eye dominant thanks to their mother as in right handed, left eye dominant. 9 year old shoots just fine left handed and has it down. 7 year old is still figuring it out, has a hard time getting his head and hands in the right position. |
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I would practice with my duty gun using ammo that was as close to duty ammo as possible (issue duty ammo was 45 ACP Federal Hydra-shok, practice and match ammo was 230 grain factory ball ammo) and would the same type holster in the same place for duty, matches, practice and training. I wanted everything to be in the same place if I was under stress. As an instructor, I would never criticize a student's equipment, no matter how shitty it was. If they asked why they had a certain problem, I would be as tactful as possible when telling them how they could improve their gear. Some students were stuck with what their department issued. If they had a crappy, cheap holster and belt setup, rather than criticize directly, I would explain why many other people select more solid and reliable equipment. My job was to help them do as well as possible with what they have. Giving constructive advice about different types of gear can be done indirectly, rather than directly criticizing someone's gear. Some are limited by their department, others don't have the financial resources to acquire better gear. |
