Posted: 4/25/2024 6:19:14 PM EDT
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Now that the ATF have banned the sale of simunition imports from Canada is there a legal American made alternative? That us dirty civilians can buy that is. I’m looking for 9mm Simunition compatible. I’ve found distributors but they all say LEO of Gov’t only. Not looking to break any laws |
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They banned importation of marking rounds, UTM and Simunitions FX for purely political reasons. In particular, there is an anti-gun lawyer political appointee in Imports Branch who thought that marking rounds could be used as an anti-personnel round and therefore had no "sporting purpose" and could be banned from importation. While I don't like it, from a legal standpoint, the government can do all sorts of import-related shenanigans if they feel like it with little legal recourse. The companies can only do internal appeals to ATF, which go nowhere. Blanks can still be imported, because they have "sporting purposes." UTM and FX can now be imported again, but only to government entities who do end-user certificates, and the ammo has to ship directly to them. There are no further restrictions though, and at some point in time, gray market ammo will pop up, as it will not be unlawful to possess it. But it will probably take awhile and there won't be reliable supply chains. |
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The "Force on Force" brand was bought by the same parent company as Simunitions and were being managed together. Those were for sale to non-government entities, but a number of supply chain issues, including the fact that little Simunitions came into the country for over a year, caused all of the distributors to run out, and Simunitions halted sales to non-government until they could fill back orders. They were also directing customers to their already established "Trusted Range" program which let ranges/companies with liability insurance and documented training buy FX rounds. "Force on Force" has been spun off and is completely separate from Simunitions now, apparently to avoid ATF issues. I imagine that as they catch up with government orders, they will probably restart civilian sales. But they are still going through a backlog, and a lot of agencies switched because they are a little cleaner and don't have the import hassles. They are shipping fairly large quantities right now and seem to have caught up with 2023 orders. So maybe soon. Keep in mind that some places, like Texas, have upped training requirements. Every cop in Texas (about 80K), now has to take a 16 hour active shooter class every two years, starting last fall. The official mandatory curriculum for that requires several hundred rounds of marking rounds per student. So that is 20-30 million rounds MORE than in past years. Demand will be high for a bit until they catch up with the new normal. |
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Originally Posted By TraininginTexas: The "Force on Force" brand was bought by the same parent company as Simunitions and were being managed together. Those were for sale to non-government entities, but a number of supply chain issues, including the fact that little Simunitions came into the country for over a year, caused all of the distributors to run out, and Simunitions halted sales to non-government until they could fill back orders. They were also directing customers to their already established "Trusted Range" program which let ranges/companies with liability insurance and documented training buy FX rounds. "Force on Force" has been spun off and is completely separate from Simunitions now, apparently to avoid ATF issues. I imagine that as they catch up with government orders, they will probably restart civilian sales. But they are still going through a backlog, and a lot of agencies switched because they are a little cleaner and don't have the import hassles. They are shipping fairly large quantities right now and seem to have caught up with 2023 orders. So maybe soon. Keep in mind that some places, like Texas, have upped training requirements. Every cop in Texas (about 80K), now has to take a 16 hour active shooter class every two years, starting last fall. The official mandatory curriculum for that requires several hundred rounds of marking rounds per student. So that is 20-30 million rounds MORE than in past years. Demand will be high for a bit until they catch up with the new normal. @TrainingTexas Thank you! I revisited this thread in November ‘24, googled Force on Force and was able to buy a box of 50. I test fired a single loaded 9mm and it seemed to cycle just fine. I tried a 9mm endomag converter in a pmag and the LRBHO feature causes it not to cycle. I’m going to buy another endomag and shave off the plastic tab that actuates the LRBHO. Anyway I’m exited to get working ammo and I appreciate your feedback TT. I’m not going to shoot a lot of them as they are about a $1.50 per round shipped. IM me if you want to know the distributor that sells them to us dirty civilians. DISCLAIMER I am a retired LEO and trainer and will NOT be shooting these at any person living or dead and will only shoot them for recreational purposes. Attached File No kitties were harmed posting this photo |
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There are a handful of distributors selling Force on Force, but at higher street cost. Agency price is still somewhere around .60-70 cents per round. Of course, agencies are FET exempt, so ammo sold directly to them is going to be 11% cheaper. If you are doing civilian reality-based training, then that is a cost you can pass on to students and/or design lower round count scenarios, something I generally did for LE training scenarios. I imagine that as FOF supply chains get more robust, they will likely restart more routine civilian sales and prices will drop. FOF should work in all Simunitions FX weapons and with their conversion kits. We have noted that FOF seems to run a little cleaner and more reliably than Simunitions FX. The FOF specific 5.56mm bolts, however, will NOT chamber and fire FX 5.56mm ammunition, though they appear to have discontinued. If you do find any out there, I recommend buying an FX conversion bolt or M2 SRTA bolt instead, which is what the FX bolt carrier copied. I am hopeful that the arbitrary import ban will go away with the incoming administration, and I plan and encourage everyone else, to contact pro 2A members of your congressional delegation to pressure BATFE to drop those poorly conceived import restrictions. |
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I have also experimented with various 9mm magazine conversions for the AR type 9mm FX uppers and none have worked so far. Your best bet seems to be checking auction sites for FX magazines when they come up, but they are rare and expensive. I have not found an FX distributor yet who will sell these to non LE agency customers, though they are not (yet) restricted from import. A better bet would be buying 5.56mm FX conversion bolts, which are available at a decent price point used if one hunts a little bit. Within a few months of these hitting the streets many years ago, we stopped using the 9mm conversion uppers entirely, as the bolts allowed individual trainees to use their exact duty rifle with all of the enablers and sighting systems and the 5.56mm rounds were more accurate at greater distances. We did note that the 5.56mm is a little spicy and I highly recommend increasing scenario standoff distances if using the 5.56mm rounds, as they are far more likely to cause injuries than the 9mm ammunition. We chronoed them at 450-600 FPS from Patrol and SWAT rifles, which was a bit faster than the 300-400 the manufacturer usually claimed. We generally increased distances for engagements with role players to 10 feet over the manufacturer's recommended 3 feet I recommend that any trainers should include that in their scenario design. |
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Originally Posted By TraininginTexas: They banned importation of marking rounds, UTM and Simunitions FX for purely political reasons. In particular, there is an anti-gun lawyer political appointee in Imports Branch who thought that marking rounds could be used as an anti-personnel round and therefore had no "sporting purpose" and could be banned from importation. While I don't like it, from a legal standpoint, the government can do all sorts of import-related shenanigans if they feel like it with little legal recourse. The companies can only do internal appeals to ATF, which go nowhere. Blanks can still be imported, because they have "sporting purposes." UTM and FX can now be imported again, but only to government entities who do end-user certificates, and the ammo has to ship directly to them. There are no further restrictions though, and at some point in time, gray market ammo will pop up, as it will not be unlawful to possess it. But it will probably take awhile and there won't be reliable supply chains. Couldnt you "make" a sport and then demand that they fall under the "sporting purposes" . like airsoft but with simunitions and guns? |
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Originally Posted By fsjdw2: Couldnt you "make" a sport and then demand that they fall under the "sporting purposes" . like airsoft but with simunitions and guns? Simunitions tried that. ATF still said "no." I think that things are looking up on this. With a little pressure, particularly through our Congressional delegations, I think that the ATF import restrictions can be eliminated and we can get Simunitions and UTM imports back soon. I also note that UTM was making a Simunitions conversion compatible round for a cheaper price than Simunitions FX. Force-on-Force is also available in greater numbers now, although the price seems to be over a buck a round. |
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If imports open up, there is also a Slovenian company that was making a marking round that I strongly suspect will be backwards-compatible with Simunitions FX. Unfortunately, as they were ramping up for sales, the import ban happened, so none made it out into training channels that I am aware of. They appeared to ramping up for civilian sales, based off social media and the like. They may be a cheaper alternative in the future. https://www.arex.si/mt-x |
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The import ban has supposedly been ended, or whatever the administrative process for that is. Individuals should be able to get Simunitions brand marking rounds through the "trusted range" program, same as before, although there is currently a 25% tariff on these because they are imported from Canada. Force on Force marking round availability continues to increase. These are now owned by the same parent company as Simunitions but managed separately and made in the USA. I have not heard anything about UTM, but I suspect that their ammunition will eventually be available again. Aftermarket sales right now are typically a few dollars a round, making it not particularly affordable. Before the ban, they were less expensive than Simunitions or Force on Force but tended to cause more injuries. They were also making a round that was compatible with Simunitions FX conversion kits for a lot less than Simunitions. These are made in the UK and I am not up to speed on their tariff status or if/when they are going to start importing them for civilian use again. |
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I have a box of the Force on Force blue marking rounds. I single loaded a round and it cycled and extracted perfectly. I tried to use an endo mag and even a plain pmag w/o the endo mag conversion and it won’t work with the proprietary bolt. I have a smart gunsmith friend I might take it to him and see if he has any ideas. Thank you all for your answers. |
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Originally Posted By weptek911: I have a box of the Force on Force blue marking rounds. I single loaded a round and it cycled and extracted perfectly. I tried to use an endo mag and even a plain pmag w/o the endo mag conversion and it won’t work with the proprietary bolt. I have a smart gunsmith friend I might take it to him and see if he has any ideas. Thank you all for your answers. The 9mm magazines pop up on GB periodically or Police trade-ins at various retailers. GB rate seems to be $50-90. The 5.56 conversion bolts are a probably a better choice, and are out there used for decent prices. Arms Unlimited and Botach both have them for $150. You can use any 5.56mm STANAG rifle magazine. Industry standard is to use something clear or clear and blue colored for safety reasons. The 5.56 ammunition available now costs the same as 9mm. Gray market maybe even less sometimes. There is some Police trade-in available from Recoil Gunworks for about 55 cents a round. Simuntions sells a clear blue discriminator magazine that will not take most live 5.56mm rounds for about $30, but you have the same issues with availability that one has with the 9mm magazines. |
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ATF rule became effective a couple days ago. It is more expansive and actually determines that marking rounds are no longer "ammunition" at all and can be imported with no restrictions and no Form 6. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/atf-ruling-2025-2-importing-training-rounds/download#:~:text=The%20Bureau%20of%20Alcohol%2C%20Tobacco,a)(17)(A). |
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UTM has announced that they have a single US vendor doing civilian sales of their products. Prices are more expensive than they were before the ban; a little under a buck a round for 9mm and slightly over that for 5.56mm. I suspect that the general 10% tariff on goods from the UK may be slightly impacting prices. So far they only have their "target shooting" ammunition listed. You can see UTM's announcement, which has a link to the vendor, here: https://utmworldwide.com/shooting-enthusiasts-message/ |