Posted: 5/3/2011 3:32:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Madcap72][Edited]
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Inspired by a conversation here. What are peoples opinions? I think a Saiga would be much faster to load with practice, than standard a layout shotgun. I read in a posted link that people say the mags are hard to change. I've handled the shotgun before and had no problems. I'd like to hear experiences from people who have trained and competed with the system. |
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| As long as the bolt is locked back, swapping well broken in magazines is easy. With the bolt forward, it's damn near impossible to do it without chewing up the first shell. |
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ugh. you get caught in ONE furpile, ONE time and this is what happens...... - SouthEndXGF
ugh. you get caught in ONE furpile, ONE time and this is what happens...... - SouthEndXGF
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The only Saiga I have seen did not run reliably at both a shotgun class and a shoot. Course my mossberg stopped working at the same shoot [shrug] I have to admit I didn't pay attention to what exactly was going on with the Saiga I would bet that you can get one round in the chamber and fire it faster than you can reload a Saiga. |
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Originally Posted By Aimless: The only Saiga I have seen did not run reliably at both a shotgun class and a shoot. Course my mossberg stopped working at the same shoot [shrug] I have to admit I didn't pay attention to what exactly was going on with the Saiga I would bet that you can get one round in the chamber and fire it faster than you can reload a Saiga. I would agree with this, with the caveat that once you get the Saiga loaded, you have 12 rounds on tap. |
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| oh sure, a reliable magazine fed system would seem like it would have to be better than a tube fed system, just seems inherent in the designs |
"It's amazing what people will believe on the internet so long as it confirms their preconceived notions."
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With some easy mods a Saiga 12 can be almost as fast on the reload as an AR.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FziECY1mSaY |
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Originally Posted By TREETOP: With some easy mods a Saiga 12 can be almost as fast on the reload as an AR. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FziECY1mSaY I bet that costs more then $2000 |
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Originally Posted By Callahan: Originally Posted By TREETOP: With some easy mods a Saiga 12 can be almost as fast on the reload as an AR. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FziECY1mSaY I bet that costs more then $2000 LOL no kidding! But at least you'd be getting more than off the shelf parts like the Wilson! Hell, a $700 Factory 1100 Tactical comes with a lot of stuff similar to the Wilson for around $700. |
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I went to the range with my S12 and two 10 round pro mags tonight. The magazines had some hiccups at first - one of them was FTEing on every round. But after running 5 loads through each, they were functioning 100%. I still want to run a few hundred more rounds through them before I'd take a class or 3 gun with them, but I think it's well on its way to being a reliable platform.
Also, it's fun to reload the magazines - when you press the follower down for each round, little puffs of smoke come out 
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This post should not be construed as an indication that I would like to murder people.
ugh. you get caught in ONE furpile, ONE time and this is what happens...... - SouthEndXGF
ugh. you get caught in ONE furpile, ONE time and this is what happens...... - SouthEndXGF
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Originally Posted By Madcap72:
Originally Posted By Callahan:
Originally Posted By TREETOP:
With some easy mods a Saiga 12 can be almost as fast on the reload as an AR. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FziECY1mSaY I bet that costs more then $2000 LOL no kidding! But at least you'd be getting more than off the shelf parts like the Wilson! Hell, a $700 Factory 1100 Tactical comes with a lot of stuff similar to the Wilson for around $700. Their conversions are ~ $2500-$3500. They sell the parts to do it yourself for a lot cheaper. |
This post should not be construed as an indication that I would like to murder people.
ugh. you get caught in ONE furpile, ONE time and this is what happens...... - SouthEndXGF
ugh. you get caught in ONE furpile, ONE time and this is what happens...... - SouthEndXGF
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Originally Posted By phurba: Originally Posted By Madcap72: Originally Posted By Callahan: Originally Posted By TREETOP: With some easy mods a Saiga 12 can be almost as fast on the reload as an AR. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FziECY1mSaY I bet that costs more then $2000 LOL no kidding! But at least you'd be getting more than off the shelf parts like the Wilson! Hell, a $700 Factory 1100 Tactical comes with a lot of stuff similar to the Wilson for around $700. Their conversions are ~ $2500-$3500. They sell the parts to do it yourself for a lot cheaper. If I was competing in three gun on a national level, I wouldn't think twice about dropping the cash to have that kind of speed. Hell, I've met people that spend close to that on optics just for running local matches. |
The bomb lives only as it's falling
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Originally Posted By Madcap72:
Originally Posted By phurba:
Originally Posted By Madcap72:
Originally Posted By Callahan:
Originally Posted By TREETOP:
With some easy mods a Saiga 12 can be almost as fast on the reload as an AR. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FziECY1mSaY I bet that costs more then $2000 LOL no kidding! But at least you'd be getting more than off the shelf parts like the Wilson! Hell, a $700 Factory 1100 Tactical comes with a lot of stuff similar to the Wilson for around $700. Their conversions are ~ $2500-$3500. They sell the parts to do it yourself for a lot cheaper. If I was competing in three gun on a national level, I wouldn't think twice about dropping the cash to have that kind of speed. Hell, I've met people that spend close to that on optics just for running local matches. I have an optic in that ballpark that I bought for no particularly good reason  
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This post should not be construed as an indication that I would like to murder people.
ugh. you get caught in ONE furpile, ONE time and this is what happens...... - SouthEndXGF
ugh. you get caught in ONE furpile, ONE time and this is what happens...... - SouthEndXGF
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Originally Posted By phurba: Originally Posted By Madcap72: Originally Posted By phurba: Originally Posted By Madcap72: Originally Posted By Callahan: Originally Posted By TREETOP: With some easy mods a Saiga 12 can be almost as fast on the reload as an AR. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FziECY1mSaY I bet that costs more then $2000 LOL no kidding! But at least you'd be getting more than off the shelf parts like the Wilson! Hell, a $700 Factory 1100 Tactical comes with a lot of stuff similar to the Wilson for around $700. Their conversions are ~ $2500-$3500. They sell the parts to do it yourself for a lot cheaper. If I was competing in three gun on a national level, I wouldn't think twice about dropping the cash to have that kind of speed. Hell, I've met people that spend close to that on optics just for running local matches. I have an optic in that ballpark that I bought for no particularly good reason But would you have rather spent it on a dolled up 1100? (that you can make yourself with a pawnshop gun and a brownells catalog) |
The bomb lives only as it's falling
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Originally Posted By Madcap72:
Originally Posted By phurba:
Originally Posted By Madcap72:
Originally Posted By phurba:
Originally Posted By Madcap72:
Originally Posted By Callahan:
Originally Posted By TREETOP:
With some easy mods a Saiga 12 can be almost as fast on the reload as an AR. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FziECY1mSaY I bet that costs more then $2000 LOL no kidding! But at least you'd be getting more than off the shelf parts like the Wilson! Hell, a $700 Factory 1100 Tactical comes with a lot of stuff similar to the Wilson for around $700. Their conversions are ~ $2500-$3500. They sell the parts to do it yourself for a lot cheaper. If I was competing in three gun on a national level, I wouldn't think twice about dropping the cash to have that kind of speed. Hell, I've met people that spend close to that on optics just for running local matches. I have an optic in that ballpark that I bought for no particularly good reason But would you have rather spent it on a dolled up 1100? (that you can make yourself with a pawnshop gun and a brownells catalog) Oh hell no 
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This post should not be construed as an indication that I would like to murder people.
ugh. you get caught in ONE furpile, ONE time and this is what happens...... - SouthEndXGF
ugh. you get caught in ONE furpile, ONE time and this is what happens...... - SouthEndXGF
| Have a S-12 modified by Tromix and the posts are right on - got to lock the bolt back and then the replacement if very fast with anything but a drum (that just takes time regardless). I will say that I spent the extra to have Tromix make the gun bullet proof and I would bet my life on it functioning every time as long as your load and gas settings on within spec (something you find out early with range time). Matt |
Ran a course this weekend with my Saiga. I fumbled with the mag changes a few times on a closed bolt...but with practice can make them a lot faster. Of course a combat reload gives you 10 or 12 rounds in one change...
I had to modify my gas ports since my gun was a vodka special 2-port gun...I drilled the two out to 1/8 (0.125) each. Also added a TAC-47 auto gas plug and once I got that dialed in the gun ran great on Federal cheapies. |
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I have two Saigas, a Tromix S17 and a home build that I shoot steels with and do 3 gun occasionally.
Each one of these guns has many thousands of rounds through them and I can honestly say that they have ran fine the entire time I have owned them.I only use Federal birdshot in them but I have thrown every brand you can imagine in buckshot without issue. As for the mag changes,I mostly agree with what has been said but I will add that I have made it a practice to pull the charging handle back and lock the bolt every time the gun runs dry.This make for fumble free mag changes.It certainly isn't as fast as those R&R guns but these guns have been so damn reliable that I don't intend on putting a magwell on.The gun with the 19" barrel had a magwell on it for a little while but it turned the gun into a tinker toy so I yanked it off and never looked back. I shoot with a few guys that have decked out benelli M4's and the last time I did 3 gun with them the higher round count stages where definitely to my advantage when running the 12 rounders with kydex belt clips.Both of my friends are as fast as me(one is usually slightly faster)but the reload time is hard for them to overcome.One stage had 20 rounds of bird shot if you shot it clean.That is a lot of loading on a tube gun. |
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Originally Posted By phurba:
As long as the bolt is locked back, swapping well broken in magazines is easy. With the bolt forward, it's damn near impossible to do it without chewing up the first shell. My bolt, carrier, and FCG are getting re-profiled and polished to make it easier to load on a closed bolt. Also got the JTE rock-n-lock which is supposed to help insert the magazine at the proper angle on a closed bolt. We'll see once everything comes back. Plus I only use SGM 8 rounders because I want to shoot hi brass without the worry off breaking a longer mag. |
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Just added a new magwell conversion from Tac47 to my Saiga. The SGM mags work but need to have the feed lips shaved (the old locking portions that engage on the Saiga magwell).
With a little bit of creative dremel use I converted all my old mags to work and they drop free. Now I can do mag changes as fast as my AR. They even slam home on a closed bolt fairly easily. This magwell conversion rocks. Not my gun, but a closeup of the magwell: 
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I've watched videos on how to load an S-12 without locking the bolt back and have done it okayish after much practice, but could not do it each and every time while under the clock. I find it more reliable to lock the bolt back. Tube feed shotguns were a step up from muzzleloaders, but are themselves as obsolete today as blackpowder. Here are couple of clips from a recent 3-Gun match with Saiga's. It's boring watching the slow as slugs tubefeeders in the same video. http://youtu.be/kvxNbNWYTfw?t=3m5s http://youtu.be/kvxNbNWYTfw?t=8m38s |
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Iraqi reload. Can get pretty fast, I've practiced a lot. Not a lot of weapon control though. Rack charging handle back and hold it, pushing the gun into your shoulder. Other hand releases magazine and feeds in new. Bring support hand onto forgrip, release CH. My Saiga really only likes slugs or High brass. It is made for 3in shells.... So yeah. |
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A tube-fed shotgun is always going to be slower to reload to capacity than a magazine fed weapon. But, crucially, shotguns don't have to be reloaded to full capacity to be effective. I routinely demonstrate an emergency reload from a side saddle in less than 2 seconds on a shotgun in class. By that I mean from a low ready position with the shotgun loaded with a single shell in the chamber, fire the shotgun with accuracy on the target, perform the emergency reload from the side saddle and fire the second shot. Time to do all that from the beep is usually 1.65-1.99 seconds depending on how clean my technique is. And, again, that's with a side saddle that stays on my guns all the time. It's real equipment. I don't see reloads at those speeds with pistols or rifles by top level competitors using their competition gear. It has significant implications for doctrine on transitions, too...typical teaching is to transition when your long gun goes dry. But I can't get a pistol out and on target as fast as I can reload the shotgun, and the shotgun is far more powerful and effective on target than the pistol. Etc. |
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Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
A tube-fed shotgun is always going to be slower to reload to capacity than a magazine fed weapon. But, crucially, shotguns don't have to be reloaded to full capacity to be effective. I routinely demonstrate an emergency reload from a side saddle in less than 2 seconds on a shotgun in class. By that I mean from a low ready position with the shotgun loaded with a single shell in the chamber, fire the shotgun with accuracy on the target, perform the emergency reload from the side saddle and fire the second shot. Time to do all that from the beep is usually 1.65-1.99 seconds depending on how clean my technique is. And, again, that's with a side saddle that stays on my guns all the time. It's real equipment. I don't see reloads at those speeds with pistols or rifles by top level competitors using their competition gear. It has significant implications for doctrine on transitions, too...typical teaching is to transition when your long gun goes dry. But I can't get a pistol out and on target as fast as I can reload the shotgun, and the shotgun is far more powerful and effective on target than the pistol. Etc. |
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Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:
Most of that makes sense to me. How many times would you do the emergency load before you did transition to the handgun? I think most people over value reload speed. In practically any situation I can think of I'm going to keep the shotgun up and running as a primary strategy because it's the best fight stopper I've got. The pistol is weak gruel and it's harder to shoot accurately. In a situation where movement is involved it's fairly easy to load on the run with the right techniques. |
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Either going to have zero time to reload or all the time in the world from what I've seen. Also speed reloading from a saddle is certainly quick, but it's still only one round. Changing a mag fed weapon might be the same speed or a little slower, but at least you're topped off all the way. Same with drawing a secondary. (which is my HD shotgun reload, a pistol) |
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