Posted: 4/14/2025 11:55:06 PM EDT
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So, I just took a long range class (a requirement at my range to access the long range range) and I had some really bizarre results that I would really like some help understanding. The rifle is a brand new Seekins HIT in 6.5 Creedmoor, the scope is a 5.5-30x Burris XTR3, and the rifle is equipped with an EC tuner. I had 2 kinds of ammo, the first is Black Hills 140 OTM The second is Hornady 140 Grain ELD Match Ammo. I zeroed with the Black Hills at 100 and was able to keep them inside a standard 7/8" brown paster. The next day I re-verified my zero at 100. Anyway, then things got weird. We went to 600 and things were OK, but I had some fliers that we attributed to bad wind calls. One thing I noticed was that at 600, I had to dial a full .6 mil higher than Streloc said I should have. Then we went 900 and I had more fliers, 2-3 shots went where I wanted them, then one would go somewhere else. The instructors had me dial .9 mil over where Streloc said, and were still attributing my fliers to bad wind calls because I was hitting the targets most of the time. I managed to keep them mostly on the steel, and moved on to 1000 where I was still mostly able to keep them on a 4'x4' plate, but still not anything close to as accurate as 6.5C with Berger bullets should be. Then we went to 1100 and it was like my rounds stopped at 1001 or took a left turn I couldn't even hit 4x4 steel consistently. Now I know what most of you are thinking, but I had a garmin chrono set up for every shot, 2748 avg, 8 SD, ES 26. I looked at the chrono after every shot, and none of the fliers were remarkable. I even had an instructor shoot my rifle with similar results to my own, barelt able to keep it on 4x4 steel at 1000. I switched to the Hornady which was slower (2680 avg, 6 SD), adjusted elevation according to Streloc, and got on the 500 steel just fine. The performance was similar at 900 & 1000, but again I was unable to keep it on the steel at 1100. It was surreal, it was like my rounds were disappearing after 1001. One of the instructors had an AB Kestrel and 4DOF and they agreed with each other but were several clicks off from what Streloc predicted AND off from reality (I didn't record how far off). So, at that point live fire was discontinued. Now, Bullets don't lie, which means I have clearly have SOMETHING awry. Either a brand new gun shoots badly but only past 600, or I have bad data somewhere, or I suppose I just can't shoot.  Every other time I have used Streloc its been spot-on, but it disagreed with other ballistic solvers this weekend. I have verified the Garmin both with another garmin and a magnetospeed. Unfortunately I don't have access to anything past 600 to test or practice UNTIL I can sort out whats going on, and at that point I need to be able to get rounds on target out to 1200. Any insight or ideas are welcome regarding how I can sort this out. |
You got gun law problems, I feel bad for you son. I got 99 problems but a ban ain't one. -Sylvan
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Originally Posted By Wangstang: How sure are you that your height over bore is right for your ring/scope/base combination? I will check that. I have 2.0" in Streloc right now. |
You got gun law problems, I feel bad for you son. I got 99 problems but a ban ain't one. -Sylvan
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I’m sorry … you lost me when you said Burris. I have owned several Burris products over the years and only found one that worked (a fixed 1x scout scope now discontinued) . The first thing I would change is the optic would be Nightforce. Actually I have no idea what’s going on. Wind can do unexpected things like swirl. I’ve been on a range with range flags blowing in different directions at different distances. If you have any other long distance capable rifle then also take that along. You might try without the tuner to see if you get the same result. The Coriolis force deflects objects to the right in the Northern Hemisphere Sometimes it’s the equipment, sometimes it’s the pulse of your heart beat or breathing/stress, other times it’s the wind, at that distance there are a lot of things that come into play. |
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.6 at 600 is a large variance to attribute to BC or MV being off by a few points. I would triple check all the data you have entered is accurate. (zero distance and measurement, twist, bullet diameter and length, BC G1/G7, bore height) I would assume your instructions would account for this, but were target distances entered correctly? according to the data for my 6.5cm shooting 140 ELDMs 600 YARDS - 3.92mil 600 METERS - 4.51 mil 900 YARDS - 7.45mil 900 METERS - 8.60mil Both are close to the variance you saw |
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Well now, this thread really has my interest... I was considering buying the same rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor. I have almost the same scope (XTR Pro in my case). I also use Strelok Pro and a Garmin. Also, I think there is a good chance that I shoot at the same 600 yard range as the OP. My experience is way more limited than most of the people in this thread but one thing I will note is that the first time I had shot beyond 600 yards, Strelok was giving elevation adjustments that were off. The RSO had suggested that I come up half a MIL and that seemed to work. I had asked about what might be happening in a thread over in the beginner section and someone had asked about the elevation and barometric pressure. Once I made that adjustment in Strelok, I was getting results more in line with what was actually needed. Also, the other thing I have run into was a crosswind that seemed to go the other direction somewhere beyond 700 yards relative to the wind inside that range. |
Originally Posted By BustinCaps:
Shooting and riding snowmobiles isn’t as fun when your property is sporting a 70’s porno bush.
Shooting and riding snowmobiles isn’t as fun when your property is sporting a 70’s porno bush.
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Originally Posted By LoadedDrum: Well now, this thread really has my interest... I was considering buying the same rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor. I have almost the same scope (XTR Pro in my case). I also use Strelok Pro and a Garmin. Also, I think there is a good chance that I shoot at the same 600 yard range as the OP. My experience is way more limited than most of the people in this thread but one thing I will note is that the first time I had shot beyond 600 yards, Strelok was giving elevation adjustments that were off. The RSO had suggested that I come up half a MIL and that seemed to work. I had asked about what might be happening in a thread over in the beginner section and someone had asked about the elevation and barometric pressure. Once I made that adjustment in Strelok, I was getting results more in line with what was actually needed. Also, the other thing I have run into was a crosswind that seemed to go the other direction somewhere beyond 700 yards relative to the wind inside that range. Yes, the more accurate (and yes verify) information you input, the more accurate the output. Garbage in, garbage out. Luckily my LR range has an online weather station, so I jump on it to get current precise data to input. Wind: Yes, as you go further out, there can be or WILL be various conditions to consider. Thats one of the challenges to shooting LR. Part of my range "set up" is pausing and watch the range, and consider what winds or conditions are going on. |
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What others have said and I will add: How was the mirage? “Fliers due to cross wind are usually good on elevation. Were your fliers good on elevation? At 1,000-1,100 a little mirage can catch you by surprise. Also, you need to see if there is a pattern of which bullet stray’s. A magazine issue can be subtle but real. Good luck! |
Among all the things all ready posted, another that can have huge issues is parallax...... Parallax Adjustment Tutorial with Ryan Cleckner: Why It's Important and How to Use It |
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Originally Posted By LoadedDrum: I had asked about what might be happening in a thread over in the beginner section and someone had asked about the elevation and barometric pressure. Once I made that adjustment in Strelok, I was getting results more in line with what was actually needed. Make sure you use absolute pressure, rather than barometric pressure, which is a corrected pressure. |
Ellen; Clark, I think it'd be best if everyone went home... before things get worse.
Clark; WORSE? How could things get any worse? Take a look around here, Ellen. We're at the threshold of hell.
Clark; WORSE? How could things get any worse? Take a look around here, Ellen. We're at the threshold of hell.
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I would have hoped that when I spent hundreds of dollars on the "long range training," AT the range in question, with the express purpose of teaching me how to be accurate at 1200, so I could QUALIFY to be able to shoot on the 1200 range, maybe I would have actually succeeded, but apparently my talent and/or equipment was insufficient to the task. So, regarding my talent, I intend to address every suggestion in this thread and that I have gotten in person. I am also going to double down on trigger time and practice this year, including even signing back up for the long range training again (if they let me.) That said, I just had Shoulder Surgery, so I am not shooting anything at the moment, not even a .22... BUT, what I am able to do is build up my gear for another try this year. I have a new 6.5 chassis rifle, 2 different versions of ballistic solver software on my phone, several hundred rounds each of 4 different types of match ammo, a new rangefinder, a new bipod/mount system, a different scope and hundreds of hours of youtuube videos watched on long range shooting. I intend to also have a batch of handloads, possibly improved bags, and maybe even a kestrel. Then by the time spring comes around, I should be in shape to shoot along about the same time as it gets warm enough to not be miserable, and I will endeavor to put these tips into practice. I also intend to find some centerfire prs/nrl style matches to go to. So, if anyone that knows me wants to come shooting and let me sponge knowledge, PM me, especially if you are already a 1200 yard member at *that* club. I have access to two 100 yard ranges very close, and 2 ranges that go to 600 at 2 hours and 3 hours from my home. Within the 3 hour-ish radius, there are 200, 300 and 600 yard clubs that I am not a member of, but some have open matches.
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You got gun law problems, I feel bad for you son. I got 99 problems but a ban ain't one. -Sylvan
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You are seeking long range benchrest results but using a bipod? Ditch it and the tuner. Lock-tite the thread protector down. There might not be anything wrong with your rifle. You may need to double down with a better scope and handloads. Work on your technique and loads until you are a consistent MOA to sub-minute 600-yard performer on the NRA MR target (NOT the 600-yard F-Class target with closer scoring rings). Six football fields away into a 6-inch circle -- halfway to your objective 1200-yards goal. It is a worthy and attainable goal. Your 600-yard skill and proficency will build on your ability to hit further. |
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Part of my problem is it's so ridiculously discouraging. The combination of I can't practice at anything longer than 600 in order to qualify at 1200 and my questions about my equipment. First there's the rifle which acted unpredictably, and then there's the whole group of people that insist that I'm an idiot for using a Burris scope. And I've even gotten a couple of comments about why am I using factory ammunition. I mean it's not like I'm using Walmart special stuff here I specifically went out and spent my money on the best quality rifle I could get my hands on, and I put the best most expensive scope I own, on it. I don't believe I can spend my way out of this problem. I reached out to the instructor and his suggestion was to pay to take the class again. I mean I can't really blame him but that implies that he didn't teach me what I needed to know in the first try. The other thing that I found out was that in addition to requiring the long range class, passing a qualification test by shooting at distance, paying an additional $2,000, the range also requires two range qualified members to be present anytime using that range. All of this is very reasonable especially on the part of the range, they don't want it just any Yahoo slinging bullets where they shouldn't go, but it does present yet another challenge for me since I'm 150 miles away from the range, and don't really have any shooting buddies that are also qualified so even if I sort out all my problems here, my chances of actually being able to go shoot at 1200 when my schedule matches with somebody else's schedule, well, the probability is not exactly zero, but I'm not sure I could differentiate. Again this is all reasonable on the part of the range, but another barrier. So I think I am going to take the hint that the world is giving me and give up on trying to be able to shoot on the 1200 range. That is one of the harder things I've ever typed, I fucking hate failure. |
You got gun law problems, I feel bad for you son. I got 99 problems but a ban ain't one. -Sylvan
| I am also curious about your elevation level... how high up were you ? 5,000 feet above sea level ? |
*Hold on to your AR-15s. Their magic must be very powerful, or they wouldn’t want them.*
JAFOM.... Just another fat old man.
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TOGC,IADC
JAFOM.... Just another fat old man.
________________________________
TOGC,IADC
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Are your groups more vertical or horizontal at shorter ranges? I’d question scope, rings, mounts first. If you’re seeing vertical stringing, that’s where I would start. I never had good luck with Burris but I don’t have experience with that model, do you have another scope you can try? Are you sure the reticle is square and vertical? Lastly, I’d question the tuner but I don’t have any experience with them either. Good luck! Things happen, double check your equipment and go from there. I’ve been there. Did terrible at a couple informal PRS matches and was blaming myself. I reviewed my equipment and found my rings were a little loose. They were properly torqued and with locktite and still worked their way loose, nothing shoots and gets tighter.  Edited to add: don’t give up! I just saw your last post and almost everyone who shoots long range goes through it at one time or another, maybe it’s a mental slump or a bad wind day but I bet it’s something mechanical and guns are not that complex and they’re fun to work on. Slow down, check your equipment and go from there. |
| If you’re on at 1000 then the list of variables is much shorter. Either your scope isn’t tracking correctly at that point in the adjustment range (holding with the reticle would fix that; you can check by using a tall target test), or your data does not match up with reality in some way. Your rifle should be supersonic well past 1200, but that is getting to the outer edge of 6.5CM’s capabilities. |
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I *assume you tuned the barrel w/ the tuner at 100 yds and verified. Different loads/bullets will require retuning, so if you're switching ammo time to retune PrecisionShootingBlog did a LOT of testing and the 2 most consistent were Hornady 147 and Berger 153.5, 'google' 6.5 ammo test precisionshootingblog. Was the wind changing on the range at distance? I took a LD shooting class and the instructors weren't 'teaching' much, it was more me and a buddy calling shots for each other. I watched a LOT of videos frankly they were more informative than the instructors. Let us know if you find a solution. |
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Sucks that you had that experience after paying for a course. For your misses, were they typically high or low vs left or right? Could you spot them, or could the instructor? When was the last time you cleaned your barrel? A 4x4’ plate at 1k is a HUGE target. Did the instructor have you reconfirm your zero at 100? If so, how did it group? As for the future, don’t get overly worried about your practice distance. If you’re going for targets that big at extended distance, you’ll be fine with your 600yd limited range. If you have the fundamentals to shoot sub moa at 100, it’ll transition to further distances, you’ll just need to account for wind/drop. As mentioned above, garbage in, garbage out. True your data on the 600yd range. This may require going for smaller targets or hitting a waterline on a target to know your data for sure. Using AB quantum or Ballistic AE would be my choice for a phone solver: strelok was never as accurate for me. If you don’t have a bubble level, I’d suggest getting one. I naturally cant a rifle slightly. At 100-400yds it rarely has an impact, but at distance, it will have an impact. Once you have a level….use it! So many ppl get one then forget it’s attached to their system when firing. Watch as many vids as you can on reading wind/mirage. If you can afford a kestrel, it’s a great piece of equipment, just remember it’s giving you data at your position, not necessarily downrange. |