Posted: 4/29/2026 11:32:31 AM EDT
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The rifle: Remington 700 short action, Timney trigger, Bell and Carlson synthetic stock, ER Shaw 24” fluted chrome moly barrel, Talley rings, Leupold 2.5x8 Vx 3 scope. Chambered in .250 Savage, 1:10 twist. The problem: first shot out of group ranging from 4-2” outside group. After first round of the day runs away good loads will produce 1.25” average groups. What I have tried: free floated barrel in stock. Deep cleaning and then Tubb final finish bore treatment (50 round fire lapping), reloading fiddles like varying bullet seating depth, different weight bullets with different powders, neck sizing versus full length sizing, bullet profiles from 117gr round nose to 117, 115, and 100gr spritzer boat tails and flat based, scope and rings are snug. The problem remains but the bore doesn’t strip copper like it did prior to lapping the bore. Suggestions? I am considering getting a bore scope, glass bedding the action, and finally getting a new barrel entirely. I have tried different bench techniques from different bags and rests but first shot still flies free. I don’t have this problem with other CF bolt guns (.308 and .30-06). |
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Shoot the first round at a different target and then shoot a group. No, seriously, there is such a thing as a cold bore shot and a cold shooter shot. My suspicion, however, is that what you are seeing is random impacts from a rifle that may well shoot two moa on a good day. Good luck. Claybuster beat me to it. |
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Try shooting groups round robin. 5 five round groups. Shoot one round at each group, then a second round on each group etc. Try also waiting a long time between each shot. Like, 5 min or so between bangs. Try shooting groups without getting off the scope. Ie no changing cheek weld etc. and try shooting groups but stand up between each round. These will help you diagnose whether it’s a shooter issue or a heat issue or a rifle bedding/lug issue. |
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Thanks for the suggestions- I went to the range and fired a found robin of four groups. The first round struck 4.5” high once again with the rest being in 1.25” groups. I changed the scope power down during the process. When I got home I pulled the action off the stock. The front lug only contacts the bedding block in the stock by about 1/4” on the right side. The action screws are also a loose fit in the “pillars”. A bedding job is certainly a priority. It may not shrink groups but it could at least stop the first round high problem. |
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Originally Posted By Cheesebeast: Thanks for the suggestions- I went to the range and fired a found robin of four groups. The first round struck 4.5” high once again with the rest being in 1.25” groups. I changed the scope power down during the process. When I got home I pulled the action off the stock. The front lug only contacts the bedding block in the stock by about 1/4” on the right side. The action screws are also a loose fit in the “pillars”. A bedding job is certainly a priority. It may not shrink groups but it could at least stop the first round high problem. So your first group had 5 flyers and the other 3 were tight 1.25”? The lug contact and action screw torque are likely culprits |
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If it continues after the lug and bedding work, fold up a business card and stick it directly under the barrel at the tip of the stock, Rem 700's come with a small tab designed to put upward force on the barrel and normally improves accuracy... Attached File |
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Originally Posted By Cheesebeast: Thanks for the suggestions- I went to the range and fired a found robin of four groups. The first round struck 4.5” high once again with the rest being in 1.25” groups. I changed the scope power down during the process. When I got home I pulled the action off the stock. The front lug only contacts the bedding block in the stock by about 1/4” on the right side. The action screws are also a loose fit in the “pillars”. A bedding job is certainly a priority. It may not shrink groups but it could at least stop the first round high problem. The action bolts should be a loose fit to pillar ID, They shouldn't act as a recoil lug. Take a separate rifle with you to range, shoot a few groups with it first, then see how a cold bore group goes with "problem" rifle. It might be a cold shooter problem, but at least you can check ot off list if not. |
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Originally Posted By DH243: The action bolts should be a loose fit to pillar ID, They shouldn't act as a recoil lug. Take a separate rifle with you to range, shoot a few groups with it first, then see how a cold bore group goes with "problem" rifle. It might be a cold shooter problem, but at least you can check ot off list if not. Originally Posted By DH243: Originally Posted By Cheesebeast: Thanks for the suggestions- I went to the range and fired a found robin of four groups. The first round struck 4.5” high once again with the rest being in 1.25” groups. I changed the scope power down during the process. When I got home I pulled the action off the stock. The front lug only contacts the bedding block in the stock by about 1/4” on the right side. The action screws are also a loose fit in the “pillars”. A bedding job is certainly a priority. It may not shrink groups but it could at least stop the first round high problem. The action bolts should be a loose fit to pillar ID, They shouldn't act as a recoil lug. Take a separate rifle with you to range, shoot a few groups with it first, then see how a cold bore group goes with "problem" rifle. It might be a cold shooter problem, but at least you can check ot off list if not. This and to ensure the bolts stay that way when you bed the lug, wrap enough tape on the bolts to center them in the pillars. Of course remove the tape after the bedding is dry. I’d also wrap tape on the barrel to keep it centered in the forend barrel channel. I’d tape around halfway down the forend but not on top of a stock pressure pad if present (they’re at the tip generally) |
The only hyphenated names I like are cartridge names......30-06, 30-40, 38-55 etc.
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Marine Tex in grey or black is available on Amazon and you’ll have it quick. If you need it quicker you very likely can get white color Marine Tex at a local marina stores shop. SteelBed and the others may be better material but Marine Tex is plenty good for the job. I’ve used both. I have also used AcraGlass but wouldn’t use that if there are other options. Buy enough for the job at hand and not a larger container because it will go bad sitting on the shelf until you need it again. BTDT. Steelbed was fairly short lived after opening which was a crying shame as it’s expensive but great stuff. |
The only hyphenated names I like are cartridge names......30-06, 30-40, 38-55 etc.
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Originally Posted By SteelonSteel: Marine Tex in grey or black is available on Amazon and you’ll have it quick. If you need it quicker you very likely can get white color Marine Tex at a local marina stores shop. SteelBed and the others may be better material but Marine Tex is plenty good for the job. I’ve used both. I have also used AcraGlass but wouldn’t use that if there are other options. Buy enough for the job at hand and not a larger container because it will go bad sitting on the shelf until you need it again. BTDT. Steelbed was fairly short lived after opening which was a crying shame as it’s expensive but great stuff. I used steel bed once, it was great. Bought some later, mixed it to directions and it partially set up bit never cured. Brownells acknowledged they had a bad batch, but since I didn't keep the box, they couldn't verify if it was in bad lot, lol. Ive used score hi HS pro bed 2000, its been very good and the ratio to mix is pretty forgiving compared to some. Ive got some 1/4-28 long bolts that I cut the heads off of. They act as alignment pins(with tap on them to center in pillars). This way I can keep from tightening bolts in wet bedding compound "too much". Surgical tubing or black tape hold action into stock while curing. |
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I have done that with loose bolts and painter’s masking tape. I don’t think I have done any with the springy tubing or bungee cord ties. Probably because I used what was handy. I am a big fan of using tape donut rings to keep the barrel where you want it centered in the channel. |
The only hyphenated names I like are cartridge names......30-06, 30-40, 38-55 etc.
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Thanks all- I just bedded the lug with a pro2000 kit. I taped the stock and barrel channel, plugged the overpressure hole with clay and sprayed down the receiver and screws with Hornady One Shot/and painted stock areas with release agent. I only used enough bedding for the front lug area as I discovered as I sanded the barrel channel this is not the first bedding job done to this stock. It will now cure for a day or so and then I will clean it up and see if I screwed up or not. The round robin group I shot verified that the first-and only the first- shot of the day hit way out of the group. In other words the first shot taken in a range session would strike high, and then all subsequent shots would group into radial patterns. The best the rifle will do is about an inch and a quarter with its preferred loads- not counting the first shot of the day. That is clearly a problem with a hunting rifle- the meh accuracy is still adequate, not so much if the first round on an animal is 4.5” high. It has not mattered if I shot it dirty or clean, bench bag/rest setup and it doesn’t happen with any of my other rifles. It isn’t a flinch as it is a weenie 250 Savage and I shoot more powerful rifles without a problem. |
Scratch And Sniff
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The only thing next on the list may be voodoo, cryo treatment of the barrel. I have never ventured there and only know one person that did a couple barrels as preventive measures. I look forward to your report after the range. |
The only hyphenated names I like are cartridge names......30-06, 30-40, 38-55 etc.
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Originally Posted By SteelonSteel: The only thing next on the list may be voodoo, cryo treatment of the barrel. I have never ventured there and only know one person that did a couple barrels as preventive measures. I look forward to your report after the range. If the barrel still isn't shooting sub moa, I wouldn't waste another dime on the barrel, time to bite the bullet and replace the barrel...If it is a pencil barrel hunting rifle, it will likely shoot much better with upward barrel pressure at the front of the stock, that is why Remington put the lugs there to begin with..... |
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Originally Posted By AKSnowRider: If the barrel still isn't shooting sub moa, I wouldn't waste another dime on the barrel, time to bite the bullet and replace the barrel...If it is a pencil barrel hunting rifle, it will likely shoot much better with upward barrel pressure at the front of the stock, that is why Remington put the lugs there to begin with..... Originally Posted By AKSnowRider: Originally Posted By SteelonSteel: The only thing next on the list may be voodoo, cryo treatment of the barrel. I have never ventured there and only know one person that did a couple barrels as preventive measures. I look forward to your report after the range. If the barrel still isn't shooting sub moa, I wouldn't waste another dime on the barrel, time to bite the bullet and replace the barrel...If it is a pencil barrel hunting rifle, it will likely shoot much better with upward barrel pressure at the front of the stock, that is why Remington put the lugs there to begin with..... True, I would certainly after trying free floating try a forend pressure pad. There is a good chance you improve things as you said the recoil lug wasn’t bearing evenly from side to side. That’s no good right there. |
The only hyphenated names I like are cartridge names......30-06, 30-40, 38-55 etc.
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Got the barreled action out of the stock. I have to clean it up, reassemble and then I will hit the range hopefully Friday afternoon. The action is now tight in the stock and the barrel is free floated. If I can get an honest 5 round MOA group I will be very satisfied. If not the barrel is getting yanked. Maybe I could have it rechambered to 257 Roberts? I was born to be mild and I have enjoyed the lack of recoil from the 250 Savage. |
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Originally Posted By Cheesebeast: Got the barreled action out of the stock. I have to clean it up, reassemble and then I will hit the range hopefully Friday afternoon. The action is now tight in the stock and the barrel is free floated. If I can get an honest 5 round MOA group I will be very satisfied. If not the barrel is getting yanked. Maybe I could have it rechambered to 257 Roberts? I was born to be mild and I have enjoyed the lack of recoil from the 250 Savage. Don’t be afraid to shim the forend if free floating isn’t as accurate as you’d like. I forgot what is normal but 2-4 pounds of upward pressure sounds right. All it takes to test barrel pressure is to cut squares of business cards or even sheet plastic like from bubble covers on items you buy that hang on pegs on the wall, like what new rings come in etc. Lay them in the forend channel about an inch or two from the tip. If all that doesn’t work have a new barrel put on. In my old age I’m partial to mild cartridges myself. I have nothing to prove and most of my deer are taken under a 150 yards. Those new modern cartridges I am sure are great but the old stuff does what it does just fine. |
The only hyphenated names I like are cartridge names......30-06, 30-40, 38-55 etc.
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Originally Posted By Cheesebeast: Got the barreled action out of the stock. I have to clean it up, reassemble and then I will hit the range hopefully Friday afternoon. The action is now tight in the stock and the barrel is free floated. If I can get an honest 5 round MOA group I will be very satisfied. If not the barrel is getting yanked. Maybe I could have it rechambered to 257 Roberts? I was born to be mild and I have enjoyed the lack of recoil from the 250 Savage. I wouldn't rechamber myself..I find if the barrel isn't accurate nothing is going to make it accurate..Better off to save the money and buy a quality barrel and call it good, I have a factory 300rum barrel that wouldn't shoot 1.5moa new, I recrowned it, rechambered it for the same cartridge, still shot like shit...A new Bartlein barrel fixed that one for good..that barrel still lays on top of my safe, has less than 250 rounds thru it..total junk.......I assume it is a pencil barrel? I would be ready to try shimming the barrel upward, a folded business card will allow you to test it when you go out to test the bedding..Don't be afraid to put a load on the barrel/stock with shims..My buddy's factory Rem 700 in 300rum wouldn't group for shit until we folded a business card in 4 layers and inserted it over the factory lugs which closed the group down to just barely over a 1/2MOA... Just experiment and see what it wants... |
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Originally Posted By Cheesebeast: The rifle: Remington 700 short action, Timney trigger, Bell and Carlson synthetic stock, ER Shaw 24” fluted chrome moly barrel, Talley rings, Leupold 2.5x8 Vx 3 scope. Chambered in .250 Savage, 1:10 twist. The problem: first shot out of group ranging from 4-2” outside group. After first round of the day runs away good loads will produce 1.25” average groups. What I have tried: free floated barrel in stock. Deep cleaning and then Tubb final finish bore treatment (50 round fire lapping), reloading fiddles like varying bullet seating depth, different weight bullets with different powders, neck sizing versus full length sizing, bullet profiles from 117gr round nose to 117, 115, and 100gr spritzer boat tails and flat based, scope and rings are snug. The problem remains but the bore doesn’t strip copper like it did prior to lapping the bore. Suggestions? I am considering getting a bore scope, glass bedding the action, and finally getting a new barrel entirely. I have tried different bench techniques from different bags and rests but first shot still flies free. I don’t have this problem with other CF bolt guns (.308 and .30-06). Are you cleaning before you take the rifle to the range? IME, when people talk about a "cold bore shot", they really mean a "clean bore shot". First shot out of a clean bore is notorious for flying different. |
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Originally Posted By Cheesebeast: Thanks for the suggestions- I went to the range and fired a found robin of four groups. The first round struck 4.5" high once again with the rest being in 1.25" groups. I changed the scope power down during the process. When I got home I pulled the action off the stock. The front lug only contacts the bedding block in the stock by about 1/4" on the right side. The action screws are also a loose fit in the "pillars". A bedding job is certainly a priority. It may not shrink groups but it could at least stop the first round high problem. You may be experiencing parallax error, especially if you are repositioning yourself from shot-to-shot. Recording a video of yourself shooting could reveal poor habits. Additionally, many scopes experience a POI shift when changing power. If you are trying to eliminate potential problems with accuracy, leave the scope on one magnification. |
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Much success! I got to the range and the first round fired was very close to the resulting group. I tried three different bullet weights/profiles and they all shot better than before- bedding was clearly a problem. Now it is back to load development and tweaking. MOA should be in grasp for my resulting deer load for this rifle. I really do like the 250 Savage cartridge and the 1:10 twist gives me some versatility in bullet weights. I am debating trying an 80 gr Barnes TTSX. I might be able to get 3100 or perhaps 3200 fps with my 24” barrel. The rifle so far has preferred Nosler 100gr Ballistic Tips and oddly Hornady 117 gr round nose. The round nose bullets are so blunt in profile they make perfect round holes in paper like a wadcutter out of a revolver. Thanks all for the advice! |
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Originally Posted By Cheesebeast: The rifle: Remington 700 short action, Timney trigger, Bell and Carlson synthetic stock, ER Shaw 24” fluted chrome moly barrel, Talley rings, Leupold 2.5x8 Vx 3 scope. Chambered in .250 Savage, 1:10 twist. The problem: first shot out of group ranging from 4-2” outside group. After first round of the day runs away good loads will produce 1.25” average groups. What I have tried: free floated barrel in stock. Deep cleaning and then Tubb final finish bore treatment (50 round fire lapping), reloading fiddles like varying bullet seating depth, different weight bullets with different powders, neck sizing versus full length sizing, bullet profiles from 117gr round nose to 117, 115, and 100gr spritzer boat tails and flat based, scope and rings are snug. The problem remains but the bore doesn’t strip copper like it did prior to lapping the bore. Suggestions? I am considering getting a bore scope, glass bedding the action, and finally getting a new barrel entirely. I have tried different bench techniques from different bags and rests but first shot still flies free. I don’t have this problem with other CF bolt guns (.308 and .30-06). Is the first shot fired from a cleaned barrel? 2" outside the groups might be typical for a fouling shot, 4" is a lot. I would make sure all fasteners are secure first. If your stock has an aluminum bedding block increase tension incrementally to see if you can find a sweet spot. Stop cleaning your rifle after every outing. Once every two hundred rounds is usually plenty, then fire a couple of foulers before putting it away. Try the Q-Tip trick and a bright flashlight at the muzzle to inspect for burrs. Crowning tools are available to rent at reasonable rates should the muzzle be suspect. Turn them by hand, never under power. |
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Originally Posted By borderpatrol: Stop cleaning your rifle after every outing. Once every two hundred rounds is usually plenty, then fire a couple of foulers before putting it away. At one point I wanted to see at which point fouling affected my groups. After 300+ shots, not only had accuracy NOT dropped off, some of the best groups of the day came at the end of the session. |
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Before the lug was bedded either a clean or fouled bore produced the same result on the first round of the day. I did check the crown with a qtip and it doesnt snag any fibers so I guess it doesn’t have any obvious burrs. I went to the range today to make sure yesterday wasn’t a fluke and fortunately the first round was clustered within the radial group. I decided to try different seating depths and got the best result with this load 10-15 thousandths off the lands. Unfortunately I am back to basic load development as I have changed a lot of variables- from bedding, barrel channel free floating, action screw torque, bore lapping, etc. Good news is I am getting 5 shot groups under an inch. Now I have to find that consistent go-to load with enough snoot to kill cleanly and then to secure enough components. This has been an odyssey. I do, again, really like the cartridge. .250 Savage is even fun to shoot off the bench. I think if I had as much frustration with a heavier recoiling rifle I would have thrown in the towel a long time ago. |
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Originally Posted By 03RN: Good deal Id like to try the .250 in a savage m99 The 99 in 250 Savage would be a peach. The only 99s I have shot were chambered in 300 Savage and .308. The brass cartridge counter on the receiver is too cool for school. I will admit to wanting to try a 257 Roberts out at some point. Ned Roberts at one point lived in Goffstown, NH so there is a local connection. His uncle gave him a Civil War era Springfield .58 as his first deer rifle, and he was of the generation to start with a muzzleloader and end up in the age of autoloaders. My great great uncle Charlie was the gun nut in the family. He was an early adopter of the Remington 8 auto loader in 35 Remington and I have pics of him hunting back in the teens with that rifle. I bet he would have loved Arfcom. |
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