Posted: 4/6/2026 4:06:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3one5][Edited]
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I'll be up front and say I'm not a great shooter. I built an SPR style AR rifle with 18" White Oak Armament SPR 1/7 barrel. I'm using a Vortex Diamondback Tactical scope and a Geissele SSA-E trigger. I've been reloading my own ammo, the pictures shown are shot with the following. Brass: LC Primer: CCI Bullet: 69gr Sierra TMK Powder: Ramshot TAC 24.5gr Shooting was done from a bench on bipod with rear squeeze bag. My question is this. Should I be happy with these groups knowing that I have some work to do on my technique? I feel that at this point my equipment and ammo is decent but it's the shooter that needs work. I'm curious to get the thoughts of accomplished shooters. Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Not enough bullet holes per paper. You really need at least 10. for a 10-shot group, and Average to Center, or Mean Radius, of 0.75" is pretty good, 0.3" or under is Match grade |
Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
General education should not be mere job training, but training in how to be fully human.
General education should not be mere job training, but training in how to be fully human.
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OP, shooting a semi auto is tough, how do you do with a bolt gun? The way I look at shooting groups, nice to shoot little groups, maybe important if you are really reaching out but reality for a defensive firearm for me is can it group good enough to take bad guys out at X distance..We do a lot of moose hunting, my go to for moose is an 8" steel plate..So everybody that goes has to shoot the plate, whatever distance you can consistently hit on a cold bore is the distance you can go out to for a shot on an animal..I've gone out to 858 yards, but that is as far as I have tried on the plate simply because I likely would never shoot at an animal past 850 yards...But if I had the average hunter I see at the range right before hunting season, I doubt most of them could consistently hit it at 200 yards, and some would be lucky at 50 yards..So don't get to down on your self, practice makes perfect, as does proper technique... ETA: A pic of my 8" plate with my 3 shot group at 858 yards... Attached File |
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Originally Posted By Greenspan: The biggest question is how was your rifle supported during that shooting? If heavy bagged, meh keep looking for ammo it likes better but not bad. If it was bipod and arm only that is amazing. Added that info to the OP. Shooting was done from a bench on bipod with rear squeeze bag. |
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Originally Posted By Byrd-Shooter: I would not be happy with that. Assuming your loads are consistent, I would say to work on rifle fundamentals, grip, trigger, breathe. I would recommend 77gr vs the 69. But you should be getting better than 1moa out of that barrel regardless. I think I definitely need to work on the shooter. I will get out and check these loads for velocity and consistency. I would prefer 77gr bullets but I got impatient after watching for 77gr TMK's for a while. I'll keep an eye out. |
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If all those groups were in the same spot I’d say that’s good shooting for gas gun from bipod/bag on bench. If you overlayed them it’s prob closer to 3 moa. That would make me want to keep practicing. If you happen to know someone really good at shooting gas guns, have them shoot it and see if you can get better groups. ARs are notoriously easy to make about 1moa “accurate” and very very difficult to make 1/2moa regardless of how much you spend. Point is, it may or may not be you. And if it’s just a 1moa gun, you can practice all you want and just frustrate yourself with no apparent progress because you’re not the limiting factor |
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I shot this from a Criterion-barreled (long USAMU throat) 20-inch service rifle I just assembled for a young lieutenant for Camp Perry. The lower receiver is a poverty pony with a blem Geissele trigger sold at Christmas special. 69-grain Sierra Match Kings pushed by 24.5 grains of Varget in Lake City cases; Remington 7.5 primers; rifle perched atop a sandbag, prone, no glove or shooting coat; March Service Rifle scope set at 4.5X, 200 yards. This is the third group shot from this rifle with my old eyeballs. Attached File |
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Originally Posted By taliv: If all those groups were in the same spot I’d say that’s good shooting for gas gun from bipod/bag on bench. If you overlayed them it’s prob closer to 3 moa. That would make me want to keep practicing. If you happen to know someone really good at shooting gas guns, have them shoot it and see if you can get better groups. ARs are notoriously easy to make about 1moa “accurate” and very very difficult to make 1/2moa regardless of how much you spend. Point is, it may or may not be you. And if it’s just a 1moa gun, you can practice all you want and just frustrate yourself with no apparent progress because you’re not the limiting factor That's what I'm afraid of. I could keep changing my load, fiddling with technique, looking for enhancements for the gun etc and not get anywhere. I'll see if I can find someone to shoot it for me. Maybe I'll snag my son, he was honored for top marksman in basic. But that was with irons. |
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Originally Posted By AR-180: That’s pretty typical for a powder like TAC. If you want better groups, use a typical load that is winning high power matches. 8208, AR Comp, Varget all tend to beat TAC, StaBall Match, and 2520. I will give Varget another go. I didn't have much luck with it but I was also loading quite a bit lower than some of the loads I've been seeing here and other places. |
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Originally Posted By 3one5: I could keep changing my load, fiddling with technique, looking for enhancements for the gun etc and not get anywhere. Originally Posted By 3one5: I could keep changing my load, fiddling with technique, looking for enhancements for the gun etc and not get anywhere. The rig you have should be stacking bullets into the same hole at 100 yards. Change to Match Kings -- many are not getting consistency with the tipped version. Take off the bipod and use a Bulls Bag and a rear bag. Double-check your eyepiece/reticle focus and your parallax. Shoot small groups. Originally Posted By AR-180: That’s pretty typical for a powder like TAC. If you want better groups, use a typical load that is winning high power matches. 8208, AR Comp, Varget all tend to beat TAC, StaBall Match, and 2520. |
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How many rounds on the barrel? I’m not an expert by any means but my precision barrels started printing tighter groups after 200 rounds or so. I would definitely try some different ammo with 77 gr bullets IMI 77gr is what I landed on when comparing cost/consistency. |
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Originally Posted By Sinister: The rig you have should be stacking bullets into the same hole at 100 yards. Change to Match Kings -- many are not getting consistency with the tipped version. Take off the bipod and use a Bulls Bag and a rear bag. Double-check your eyepiece/reticle focus and your parallax. Shoot small groups. Sage advice. Agreed. Try 77 SMK’s or Berger 77 tactical both over Varget. To get my accurate AR’s into the .5-.6’s it took a lot of practice. I have a hard time doing that today so will take the occasional sub .5 and a lot of .7’s and be happy. Always with 77’s. |
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I'll agree with those above that say to change powder, and I shot TAC for 10 years. 24 grains of TAC under 69 SMKs always averaged just over an inch for me and my rifle. Someone suggested 8208 and the first group (5 shots) that I tried was under half inch. 5 more with TAC, over an inch, 5 more with 8208, back to half inch. I've never looked back. I still have several pounds of TAC that is over 10 years old. I'll eventually use it for hunting loads. |
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Originally Posted By KC-ROUGHNECK: How many rounds on the barrel? I’m not an expert by any means but my precision barrels started printing tighter groups after 200 rounds or so. I would definitely try some different ammo with 77 gr bullets IMI 77gr is what I landed on when comparing cost/consistency. I'm at around 600 rounds through it. |
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just a note on changing powder... anyone who's shot with me for the past 20+ years knows I'm not big on cleaning lol, but I do strongly recommend cleaning the barrel between powders. i.e. shoot some 8208, clean, shoot some varget, clean, shoot whatever, etc. some powder solvent and a few patches is all. no need to scrub. Originally Posted By 3one5: Are you guys crimping your 223 ammo for AR's? I've been using a lee factory crimp that is applying a very light crimp. depends on bullet. if bullet has a cannelure, definitely. if not, and it's basically match ammo, no. I rely on adequate neck tension, however, I don't abuse it by having the rounds ride vertically oriented on the floorboard for 1000 miles to the match. if you are not controlling neck tension by proper annealing, then a light crimp is probably advisable. in any event, you can make a few lots with different amounts of neck tension and crimp and test to see which has best SD and most accuracy. YMMV eta: if you are chasing lands, make sure you can chamber a round, dropping the BCG a few times without the OAL changing, and definitely without sticking a bullet in the lands. |
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I would definitely not be happy with those groups. This is a WOA upper with 1/7 18” barrel. With 77gr SMK and 23.5gr Varget loaded to 2.26 . I’m getting nice tight groups at 100 and 6” plates at 600 are pretty easy. 10 shots 100yds  10 shots 100yds     |
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All my WOA barrels will shoot .75 5 shot groups with handloads. I have had two that would shoot .5 or better. I shoot with a accutac bipod and rear bag. So I would keep practice and see if you can shrink those groups down. I shoot 77gr match kings with 24gr of varget or 23.5gr of 8208. It took about 200 rounds for one of my barrels to settle down and really start shooting well. |
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Originally Posted By 3one5: Are you guys crimping your 223 ammo for AR's? I've been using a lee factory crimp that is applying a very light crimp. I never crimp on precision loads. Tac and 77 gr. TMKs gets me .65-.75" in my ARs (past and present) and three XCRs (1:7 and 1:9). Various 69 gr. match bullets are closer to an inch. Revisit the fundamentals and try 77s. |
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Originally Posted By 3one5: Are you guys crimping your 223 ammo for AR's? I've been using a lee factory crimp that is applying a very light crimp. I tested crimping on my precision loads and couldn’t quantify any benefit or detriment. The stuff I load on a progressive gets a very light crimp because it’s easy. The stuff loaded on single stage gets none. |
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Originally Posted By Sinister: The rig you have should be stacking bullets into the same hole at 100 yards. Change to Match Kings -- many are not getting consistency with the tipped version. Take off the bipod and use a Bulls Bag and a rear bag. Double-check your eyepiece/reticle focus and your parallax. Shoot small groups. Sage advice. All this.... and the TMK's can be "fussy"... I would certainly try a different 69gr or 77gr, |
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JAFOM.... Just another fat old man.
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I wouldn't be very happy with those results tbh. im shooting a 14.5 centurion recce with factory 69 GMM at .8 MOA 100 and 200 yards pretty easily with a 10x scope.  it took me about 400 rounds through my setup to get it shooting this good, I am still getting fundamentals dialed in but I would definitely expect more from hand loads and a longer barrel. |
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Originally Posted By Greenspan: The biggest question is how was your rifle supported during that shooting? If heavy bagged, meh keep looking for ammo it likes better but not bad. If it was bipod and arm only that is amazing. |
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Originally Posted By Sinister: I shot this from a Criterion-barreled (long USAMU throat) 20-inch service rifle I just assembled for a young lieutenant for Camp Perry. The lower receiver is a poverty pony with a blem Geissele trigger sold at Christmas special. 69-grain Sierra Match Kings pushed by 24.5 grains of Varget in Lake City cases; Remington 7.5 primers; rifle perched atop a sandbag, prone, no glove or shooting coat; March Service Rifle scope set at 4.5X, 200 yards. This is the third group shot from this rifle with my old eyeballs. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/18978/69_SMK_V_Criterion_jpg-3742044.JPG 24.5 grains of Varget with 69 grain SMK's is my standard reference load. I developed it using several rifles with various length barrels and it performed very well across the board. It's not optimized for any particular rifle I own, it shot better, on average, than anything else I tried. I tried a lot. Velocity is only 2700 fps from my 20" service rifle. |