The purpose of this thread will be to document the precision and reproducibility of various barrels. While I have had good luck with several of the barrels currently at my disposal, I’m not biased to a particular brand/manufacturer. At the end of the day, I just want a barrel/rifle that will shoot. Doesn’t matter to me whose roll mark is on the tube. Cost effectiveness is always a plus though, for me and likely many of you reading this thread, so I’ll try to include street prices along with the results.

Testing: Testing will be at 100yds minimum, using a bipod and rear bag. Note: this isn’t specifically for the MOA challenge, but the rear bags will likely conform to the rules. I don’t own any V style benchrest bags.

Ammunition:Tests will be conducted using factory match ammo as well as handloads. If there are specific match loads or reload recipes that you’d like to see tested, feel free to leave a request and I’ll see what I can do, provided that the request appears safe.

Optics: All optics used for testing will be suitable for getting the most out of the barrels. Vortex, NF with a minimum top end of 20x.

Triggers: All triggers used will be match/target 2 stage triggers, with a 3.5lb or less pull. Sorry HP guys...

Groups: All groups will be a minimum of 5 shots (unless load development), with a minimum of 3 consecutive groups. I’ll strive for 5 groups, but based on the potential number of barrels/ammo combinations, the ammo costs could prohibit such extensive testing.

Current barrels:
LaRue Stealth, 5.56, 16”, 1:8 (in house produced, non LW)
LaRue Stealth, 224 Valkyrie, 1:7
Rainier Arms Ultramatch, 223 Wylde 18”, intermediate gas, 1:8 Shilen blank
Rainier Arms Ultramatch, 223 Wylde 18”, intermediate gas, 1:8 Shilen blank
Daniel Defense, chrome lined, Govt  profile, 1:7
Rainier Arms, Match, 223 Wylde, 16”, 1:8
Rock River Arms, 223 Wylde, 16”, 1:8 (std. barrel, not varmint or PP)
Ballistic Advantage, 6.5 Grendel, SPR, 18”, 1:8
Ballistic Advantage, 6.5 Creedmoor, 22” (non-fluted), 1:8
X-Caliber, 6.5 Grendel, 18”, 1:8
Falkor Defense/Dracos, 6.5 Creedmoor, 22”, 1:8
Falkor Defense/Dracos, 6 Creedmoor, 22”, 1:8
Krieger 223wylde, 20”, 1:7.7
BCA 223wylde, Nitride fluted 18” mid length 1:7t
Rainier Match, 18” RLG, 1:8 (new version, Black Friday sale)
Rainier Rock Creek, 1:8twist 18” intermediate gas (.936 gb)
Rainier Arms Ultramatch 24” 1:7.5t 224Valkyrie
Rainier Arms Ultramatch Fluted 24” 1:7.5t 224Valkyrie
Proof 18” +1 gas 6mm ARC


The Falkor builds have been placed on the back burner for the time being. They are a higher price point and aren’t the typical first choice for most shooters. They also have predator optics on them currently and it’s a pain to readjust/remount.

Other barrels: If there are other barrels that
you would like to see tested, please let me know. Obviously I can’t just purchase barrels for the sake of this thread, but there may be some that I was already interested in and you could help to push me to place an order. Also, if you have a barrel or upper you’d like tested, reach out to me and we may be able to work something out.


If anyone has any questions or suggestions to the format of the testing, please feel free to send me an IM. I’d like to keep the thread mostly for ammo/ barrel suggestions and discussion of the results.

Some previous results. These were not shot in the spirit of this testing due to the limited number of shots per group. Most were shot to confirm precision of a load or were shot during load development, but it will be interesting to see if the results can be duplicated.

22” Ballistic Advantage 6.5 Creedmoor












223/5.56

From near to far, Rainier Match, Rainier Ultra Match #1, Rainier Ultra Match #2



RA Match


RA UM #1
73 eld-m load development


73eld-m handloads left, 77gr FGMM right


77smk load development (bottom of target)


RA UM#2

5rds, 73gr ELD-m handloads


LaRue Stealth

LaRue Stealth- 16”



So, I initially tried to test this barrel and ammo combination on 9/3/18. I experienced a dramatic POI shift on rd 5 of the first group of ADI 69’s. I had previously warmed up the barrel with 4rds of another match ammo. I let the barrel cool for about 4 minutes and then fired the next group. The first round was close to where the initial group started, but the next 4 had a POI at close to where shot 5 from the first group impacted. I switched back to the other match ammo, CGA 77. While there wasn’t a great POI shift during the string, it was a bit lower than the initial 4 warm up shots. Moved on to FGMM and noticed the same low POI, with the final 2rds going even lower. Decided to call it a day, perplexed at the cause of the shift.

ADI 69, FGMM77



Groups were fired top two, cool down, bottom two, cool down, middle group. The same shifting is present.


9/15/18 Update

So, after the last outing, I decided to break down the Stealth barreled rifle to see if there was something off with the build. Nothing seemed out of place except the gas block was close to the junction where the barrel steps down. I adjusted it out slightly to ensure there could be no contact when the barrel/gas block heated up. Tested the barrel again on 9/15/18 and I’m still seeing what I believe is a shift. The barrel shows potential, but the groups become lack luster once it starts to drift. Not sure if it’s due to stress in the barrel or what, but I’m going to attempt to send it back to the manufacturer for analysis.

Ammo was sorted into lots for firing to remove as many variables as possible. The base to ogive for each 5 round group was less than 2 thousandths.

Note: The first round in Group 2 was chambered twice. The line was called cold before firing that group. I added a round to the mag when firing resumed and allowed that round to be the first fired. As a result, I excluded it from the MOA calculation.



Rainier Ultramatch- 18”


ADI 69, FGMM 77, handload group as the last group to determine if I was having an off day. Groups of ADI, cool down, FGMM, cool down, hand load group.




Ballistic Advantage, 6.5creedmoor, 22”


Clean barrel. Ran 10rds of FGMM through it quickly and then tested 3 loads of Berger AR Hybrid’s. Only 4 per group, so I’ll repeat.


9/15/18 Update
Load development- Berger 130 AR Hybrid/ Hornady 140 ELD-M

Rain was quickly approaching, so these groups were fired back to back with minimal cool down periods.


Hornady 140 ELD-M


9/15/18 Update

Bear Creek Arsenal


Initial testing, sighting in had a thread adapter on the muzzle. Unfortunately, I forgot to torque it down before leaving for the range so there was some dramatic POI shifts, so I removed it and fired 4 groups. The other thing of interest, at least to me, is that the first round from the mag seemed to catch on the barrel extension, so I’d have to pull back on the charging handle to get it to chamber. This was likely due to the way the magazine presented the round, but I’m convinced it had an impact on the first round from the groups. In one group, (ADI 69) Rd 2 was outside of the group. Perhaps it made contact with the extension/feedramp?

Results Spreadsheet

Work in progress...

Work in progress...

Yup, you guessed it

Work in progress...

Work in progress...

That should be enough for starters

In.

PM sent. I have a few I can send you if you're interested.

Very interested in seeing the results.  Would like to see some Proof Research Barrels tested as well!

How many rounds per barrel per test? Statistical analysis?

5 round groups should be ok, but a final compilation of all the groups on 1 target using software is always a great summary.

Do a bear creek armory 223 wylde barrel you know for shits and giggles

Picked up some local rounds/components and ordered some ADI 69gr as well as some more FGMM 77’s.




Edit: 8/24/18

Additional ammo arrived: FGMM 77’s and ADI 69’s

This ^^

5-shot extreme spread analysis is efficient enough for anecdotal evidence. 30-round composite groups should be considered the minimum sample size for statistical relevance.

OnTarget software is a great tool for this, coupled with ShotGroups analysis package is an awesome deep dive into internal ballistics.

A good resource for different statistical measures can be found at Ballistipedia.com

I’ll admit that I’m not big on composite groups, primarily based on how I shoot. If the rifle will consistently group and there’s no pronounced shift in POI, it’s good enough for my use. There’s also more variability of the system since this isn’t “controlled” or mechanical testing, but I’ll see what I can do. I have a few statistical analysis programs at my disposal, but may not have the time to perform an in depth analysis. All of the information will be in this thread, so feel free to perform it yourself. I’ll try to be mindful and not make any scope adjustments between strings or change muzzle devices.

It's a huge time and $$$ commitment for sure. You might also think about a lab radar to get data on the ammunition you are using as that is probably the most significant contributing factor after the barrel. The big name ammo manufacturers are usually pretty consistent but errors happen in manufacturing. Even if you don't publish or use the data, it will give you confidence that the ammunition isn't to blame for poor performance.

It's the precision rabbit hole for sure.

AH HAAAA! SO THERE'S WHERE ALL THE H4350 IS!!!

Brings up the cost of testing: suggests another 500$ piece of kit. I have a magnetospeed, but it plays a part in barrel harmonics, so not ideal for this type of testing.

Expecting to see some variation in the factory ammo. How much is yet to be seen, but that’s why some results/claims have garnered skepticism in the past.

Someone point me to a deal on the Lab Radar....and a Bear Creek barrel.

Here is a barrel.  $69 for the melonite version but they have parkarized versions for less

Bear creek   barrel

Not big on a carbine gas system. Picked up the 18” Nitride w/ mid-length gas and one of their adj. gas blocks.

Awesome I'm really interested in seeing what a cheap barrel like that can do. Some people claim they are sub moa all day every day others say you are better off throwing the rifle at the wall.

I think brands such as bear creek are the ones most people are interested in seeing results from.  We all know the top tier brands are going to preform well. It's the PSA daily deal or primary arms flash sale beer creek/radical arms  $50 barrels  the average builder is curious about.

It will be interesting for sure. When researching the barrels a bit last night a stumbled upon a thread where a PA representative indicated you get what you pay for with the BCA barrels. Maybe I can get it to shoot, but if it isn’t showing any promise, I won’t spend a lot of time on it. The recommendation for a budget barrel from him was for Ballistic Advantage.

Man that larue barrel did not like the Hornady stuff did it?

I almost went with BA for my build but couldnt find the barrel I wanted in stock ended up with a Green Mountain barrel that had the same exact specs  for less. Its a shooter for sure sub moa for $200 bucks hard to beat

I have a 20" SS Fluted Green Mtn barrel in .223 thats also a sub moa shooter. Really closer to 3/4 moa. Great barrel for the $200 it costs.

ETA: Did a 5x5 average and ended up at .77 MOA with Sig 77gr OTM.

SR shooters have gotten about 1.4 MOA from BCA barrels.

Indeed. The LaRue turned into a shotgun with that stuff. I blame the ammo. I measured the remaining 10rds from that box and observed a .023” variance in the base to ogive. The Rainier UM#1 didn’t do quite as bad, but my gf (shooter for this group) wasn’t happy with it. Honestly, probably just luck that it did that well. May test it further, just because I have a few boxes, but it’s probably just decent plinking ammo.

Would love to help you out on that, but a proof won’t be in the budget for this testing unless someone hooks me up. Their barrels are very good, but I typically am not into weight savings enough to warrant their price.

Shhhh. Don’t tell anyone.

I actually think I’m running a little low.

Thanks for the feedback. Hopefully I can get that or a touch better. It’ll probably be a hammer and make me rethink all of my previous purchases.

In other barrels I have experienced the same thing with 75gr hornady Im hoping my Green mountain will like it I bought some steel match to try out for 46 cents per round I hope it works out

BCA 1:7 twist arrived


Feed ramps are a bit rough on the edges, so I’ll try to polish them a bit before final install.


Fit in two separate BCM uppers was tight, with one being very tight. I’ll need to heat one receiver up to get it to fit, so I won’t have to worry with shimming.

Sadly, the post man didn’t ring the doorbell, so I’ll have to pick up the optic tomorrow.

8/24/18—-Problem solved


Edit: She’s together.

Look at those cool flutes!! (Insert sarcasm)

Cant wait to see how it shoots

Had to deal with a water leak at my girlfriends house today, but the FGMM 77’s and ADI 69’s showed up. Hoping to get some range time in tomorrow.

The daily deal email made me think of a PSA 223wylde/grendel/valkye barrels... always wonder about those too

I’ve shot 1.....

I don’t wonder anymore. You can buy that one though.

SuperJ, I see you like those JP Rapid Configuration handguards. Out of all of the AR's I've shot and own, I think that particular JP Rapid Configuration handguard is the best (I have JP's other handguard, the "Signature" handguard, and it is okay, but nothing like the RC). It also helps that it is aesthetically pleasing as well.

Thank you for doing all of this work.  I recently acquired a LaRue PredatOBR (at an absolutely smoking deal).  I am going to put it up against my JP-15 and see which rifle can do what, given the same ammo, as well as trying to match other variables.  I am a huge proponent of JP Enterprises when it comes to precision gas guns; I always recommend them for the simple fact that they work really well, and are hyper accurate.

Anyhow, I figured at this point, I'd give the LaRue a shot. I recognize that this is a sample size of one from each manufacturer, but it's still a cool thing to be able to compare.  The way I want to do it is going to make it rather time consuming, but at the same time, it should be a good time.

On a side note, I've read tons of posts and reviews and what not on the LaRue MBT.  With regards to AR's, I really like my Geisseles and JP's single stage trigger, but that MBT surprised the shit out of me. Granted, I have only dry fired it, but to be honest, it felt damn good.  I wish I could run it in my duty rifle, but I digress...

Good luck with the testing. Are you running different optics for these tests, or sticking with the same optic (for my edification, only).

Thanks again man.

Be safe.

I really like the JP MKIII RC rails. The system is rigid and I like being able to have rails beyond the typical 15”. There’s also sufficient clearance for heavy barrels and a .936” gas block.

I’ve got a MBT in one of my AR’s. I think it’s a really good buy at the sale price, probably the regular price too. I won’t be selling my Geiselle NM’s to replace them with MBT’s, but they are an affordable alternative to the SSA’s.

Optics will be different among most of the rifles. The 4 that I hope to test this weekend will have a mix of ATACR, Razor, PST Gen2 and RzR AMG for glass.

Initial run with the Rainier Ultramatch, LaRue Stealth running ADI 69 and FGMM 77 is posted (Post #3).

Also ran some load development with the Ballistic Advantage 6.5 creedmoor.

The DD is a 16" carbine?

From it, I'd like to see the performance of-

Factory ammo:
Hornady 75gr Match

Handloads:
75/77gr BTHP over 24 - 24.5gr Varget.
50/53gr VMAX over 25 - 25.5gr Varget.

The 53g VMAX is slick; might need to jump another 0.020" at 2.23-2.24" OAL if the ogive allows.

I'm enjoying the shit out of this thread.  Many thanks.

I'm sitting on this JP.   Waiting for the weather to cool down a bit to get it to the range and see what it can do.  Your thread is making me anxious.  

It’s a Midlength gas. I’ve got some Varget and RL-15 as well as 75/77’s. 24.1-24.2 seems to be getting on the warm side from what I’ve seen previously, based on seating depths I use, with a nice node typically just before 24.0gr with RL-15. I don’t have any V-max’s At the moment. Pretty sure my dad has a stash of V-max bullets. I’ll try to grab some when I head up to his place to chamber my girlfriends 6x47L once my Nucleus actions show up. She really wants me to finish her build, so there’s added incentive/pressure to get that done as soon as the actions arrive. The LRG260 groups in the image of the Ultramatch hand load results was her practicing shooting groups.

Glad you’re enjoying it! Wish I was further along, but work and being a dad takes priority.
That is a slick rifle you’ve got! JP puts out some incredible rifles. I’m sure you’ll be very pleased with it! Be sure to report back with your results.

Fantastic thread.  Thank you for undertaking this and sharing it with us.  I look forward to more posts.

For groups at 100 yards in .223 various chamberings (.223, 5.56 NATO, .223 Wylde, etc) have you considered lighter weight match bullets?

Berger's .224" Flat Base Target bullet comes to mind.  It is giving me consistent sub 1/2 MOA at 100 yards from a Lilja 16" 1:8 Wylde chambered Recce profile barrel.  The limiting factor is me.  No telling what they are capable of from a true benchrest rifle.

Match grade flat base bullets, especially in the 52-53 grain weight often shoot a bit tighter at 100 yards.  Bullets like the various 77 grain OTM choices, are greatly superior at longer distances due to higher BC, but may need more than 100 yards to settle down.

Give the 52 FB Berger Target bullets a try.  They are spendy.  Sierra's 52 BT is close at 100, less expensive, but not quite as accurate for me.

Powder for the 52 grain bullets is H4895 or L-32.  H4895 has been more consistent, but is very coarse long grain extruded.  I've been working with IMR 8208, but not getting the results I would expect so far.

Double tap.  Sorry.

How much effect does precession or whatever have at 100yds? A tenth, a quarter MOA, or less?

10 shots on call. H4895 as well.
Attached File

Additional LaRue Stealth, Ballistic Advantage 6.5 Creedmoor and.....Bear Creek Arsenal results have been added to Post #3.

I may give those a try. I mainly shoot longer distance, but those may be good for intermediate paper fun. I don’t necessarily believe in bullets going to sleep since I don’t understand how gyroscopic stability increases once a bullet leaves the muzzle, but I may need to read up more on the subject. I’ve had great results with 73 eld-m’s and 75hpbt from a few rifles. The 73 eld-m is my go to bullet for my girlfriends rifle.

The BCA result sounds familiar, so far.

Yup! The barrel did show some potential though. I think that a different magazine and tweaking of the feedramp/extension could tighten it up. I may Work it over a bit, re-test, then offer it up for sale to anyone who’s interested in it to offset my next ammo order. I think I can get it under 1moa. Guess I’m on record now.

Pulled the 16” LaRue stealth barrel and will be shipping it to LT for them to look it over. It showed potential, but the shift has me thinking something may be slightly off.

The replacement barrel for that rifle will be an 18” BA 6.5 Grendel. I installed that barrel last night and picked up some Hornady Black 123 eld ammo today as well as some Black 75gr.

Debating on testing the LaRue 224V. I’d like to see what it will do, but I’d also like a 22” +2 224V from a Bartlein, krieger or Rock creek blank. To sell or test....decisions.