|
Originally Posted By Deadeye675:
I think the text on the ipad is too small for your mom to read  just typing that story up made my head want to explode again... 
took longer to get an answer from my mom on length than to make up the damn cable. 
ar-jedi |
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
|
Solar Shower Setup in South Africa. This place was on the coast that had no potable water and very limited electricity. Runoff from the rainwater filled the tanks. They collected rainwater in the massive rain barrels on either side of the house which could be used to fill up the solar water tanks and operate the toilets. I was really sick and couldn't sleep so I ended up taking a shower at 3 AM to clear my head. The shower water (although non-potable) was scalding hot even though the sun had set 6 hours earlier. If your roof gets a lot of sunlight and it doesn't get below freezing very often this could be something to look into.   |
It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather a tireless minority.
Sam Adams
^^^^ This works the same for liberal and conservative ideas.
Sam Adams
^^^^ This works the same for liberal and conservative ideas.
|
...from a WAF (wife acceptance factor) standpoint, the setup i arranged is not great. while we can shower (with the PTO generator running) and live fairly normally (with the EU2000i running), the backup power system is not "self administering" in terms of refueling, power-vs-load management, and so on. there is some work on my end to configure things and keep the system operational, and some aspects of this process may not be obvious to a layperson. a natural gas-fueled generator would win in this aspect. moreover, the little Honda requires a bit of household discipline otherwise you'll pop the breaker on the unit. so, making a cup of coffee in the Keurig or using other "high power" loads has be done with some appreciation of what else is currently being powered and what the downstream effects might be.
Hey ar-jedi, I don't normally do the SF thing but I followed your post on the ham forum over here. I'm guessing you have roughly $3K invested in generator stuff. While I realize it's all sunk cost now, from a WAF/logistics point of view you'd be much better off with a small Generac automatic standby system. The small 7KW units all go for under $2K. You are clearly able to do the install yourself, so only sweat equity there. I did my own including the gas piping and it wasn't too hard. Maybe you could dump either EU2000 or the tractor PTO setup on Craigslist for say $1K and then you'd be in good shape to upgrade. Keep one of them as backup. I have a 15KW unit hooked up to a buried 1000gal propane tank (no NG in my neighborhood). It is attached via 12 circuit subpanel with automatic transfer switch. Through the liberal use of half-size breakers I have most of my house on the subpanel. I'm also on a well and septic so no worries about municipal supplies going bad or sewers backing up into the house. In the event of well failure I have access to ample fresh water within 50 yards, although it will have to be filtered/treated. In the dead of a New England winter the generator and heating plant consume approx. 2.5gal/hr running full blast. Assuming a worst case tank condition of 500gal (I never let it get below that) that equates to continuous run time of over 8 days. Given that most storms around here rarely result in outages of over a couple of days for us I normally splurge on fuel in order to maximize WAF. Longest outage so far was 104 hours (a bit over 4 days). If it were a more major SHTF situation I would use a run time pattern similar to yours. Conservatively assuming 3 hours a day this equates to over 60 days of power starting at 500gal. And all as easy as flipping a switch. No cords, no wires, no fueling, no fear of someone stealing it, etc. Since it appears you have NG you could attach to that. As your heat probably depends on NG and most storms are winter storms as well that might be a good choice. It depends on how independent you want to be. You might consider also keeping a couple of 125gal propane bottles around with appropriate regulators and hoses in case the NG supply goes down. It would take about 30 minutes to swap the generator over to LP in such a case and moving the bottles would be easy with your tractor. LP never goes bad, either. That wouldn't get you heat, though. At any rate food for thought and an interesting comparison between approaches. The first time our generator ran in anger was during the Ice Storm of I Forget What Year. We were ready for it, vehicles fueled, cupboards stocked, chainsaw checked out, etc. We went to bed with power up and trees and wires sagging alarmingly. At about midnight the power went out. It is strange how that will always wake you up. My wife whispers to me "Will the generator start now?" I answered "Wait for it." 30 seconds later she says "I love you, honey!" turned over and went back to sleep. Now that's WAF! 
|
|
I have a Rayovac Sportsman LED lantern, and plan to pick up at least one more. You cannot beat it for the price, IMHO. Features:
|
http://blogostuff.blogspot.com/
http://www.theshootersbar.org/ -- Pro-gun attorneys
NRA Endowment Life Member
RKBA = FREEDOM
http://www.theshootersbar.org/ -- Pro-gun attorneys
NRA Endowment Life Member
RKBA = FREEDOM
|
Originally Posted By ar-jedi:
Originally Posted By Deadeye675:
I think the text on the ipad is too small for your mom to read just typing that story up made my head want to explode again...
took longer to get an answer from my mom on length than to make up the damn cable.
ar-jedi it just hit home with me cause it sounds like a conversation that could have been between me and my mom. She's a sweetheart, I love her, but bless her heart, electronics (other than the digital camera i got her like 5 years ago) and her are not a good combo. My mom and step dad travel internationally all the time and she had some film get destroyed from a trip to Jordan about 5 years ago....hence the digital camera. Now shes a pro with that thing. |
DEMOCRAT'S???? FUCK EM'
|
Originally Posted By TriumphRider:
Great write-up! Thanks for posting. One question: So, it is safe to run a 120v generator to both sides of your load center? Is this only if you know for sure that you don't have any shared neutrals? In some of the threads in this forum I think it was stated that you shouldn't run both sides of the box because they would be the same phase and could overload any shared neutrals? I am interested because I just installed a new Siemens load center (got rid of the 30+ year old Federal Pacific fire-starter) and am wiring in a generator with a UL listed Siemens brand lockout in the new box. I know, i know, I should have bought a gen that has 240v output  , but I got this one at a pretty good price and if there is any chance that I can run both sides SAFELY  I'd like to do that til such time that I can upgrade.
Thanks, TriumphRider If you turn off every 240V breaker the answer is yes. Anything looking for 240V is potentially not going to be happy in a break-things-sort-of-way seeing the same phase on both legs. Similarly some 240V equipment is also potentially very unhappy in a bad way when only a single phase is live, so even if you are only feeding a single phase through the load center you still should disconnect all 240V loads. However just because you can doesn't mean you should. I personally wouldn't risk the consequences of making a load management mistake in either way. Your load center capabilities with the lockout and a proper backfeed breaker are outstripping your generator's capabilities. Time for a better generator. Buy once, cry once! |
|
Originally Posted By aa777888-2:
Anything looking for 240V is potentially not going to be happy in a break-things-sort-of-way seeing the same phase on both legs. how so? ar-jedi |
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
|
Thanks for the reply, it is appreciated. Yeah, I should have stated that at the begining of a power out scenario, the checklist would show to turn off the main and ALL of the branch breakers. I understand that the 4kw generator is not going to power my whole house, let alone the range, dryer and AC. There will be clearly marked breakers that may be turned on if that circuit is necessary.
I also found a source for the watt meters that come with some of the Reliance transfer panels and will be installing a set of those as well to monitor the generator load. Thanks again, TriumphRider |
|
Originally Posted By ar-jedi:
mom: "hey, when you come over to your sister's today can you bring me a router?" me: "what? a router? for what?" mom: "your brother brought my computer from my house to your sister's. now i want to hook my computer up to her internet. i can't read the text on her iPad thingy, i like my big monitor with the big text. i think i need a router to connect the computer to so i have internet. the text is too small on the iPad." me: "you don't need a router, you just need a LAN cable to connect your computer to her FIOS router". mom: "ok whatever. can you get me a cable at Radio Shack? me: "no, i'll just make one up, it will take 5 minutes. how long do you need the cable to be?" mom: "how are you going to make it up? why don't you just go to Radio Shack and get one? i can't read the text on her iPad." me: "mom, i do this shit for a living. tell me how long should the cable be? 5 feet? 25 feet? 50 feet?" mom: "how can you make a cable? just go to Radio Shack! there is no way for me to see the tiny letters on the iPad. it's too small." me: MOM ––> 1) RADIO SHACK IS PROBABLY WITHOUT POWER. 2) I HAVE A GIANT REEL OF THE RAW CABLE. 3) I HAVE THE ENDS THAT GO ON THE CABLE. 4) I HAVE THE TOOL TO PUT THE ENDS ON THE CABLE. NOW, I'M NOT GOING TO RADIO SHACK, WHICH IS PROBABLY NOT OPEN ANYWAY. SO TELL ME HOW LONG THE CABLE SHOULD BE SO I CAN DO THIS FOR YOU AND DELIVER IT !!! mom: ok, don't get all huffy. how long? –– i don't know, about 20 feet? maybe 25 feet? do you have that much cable? is it expensive? the text on the iPad is so small. I was going to say that you must be my long lost brother, as it sounds like my mother...but then I realized that if it were really MY mother...the call would have ended like this: Me: Ok mom. I'll make up a 30' cable just to make sure. I'll be there in about 30 minutes. My Mom: 30 minutes? Why so long? Me: It'll take 5 minutes to make the cable, then a few minutes to get cleaned up, so about 1/2 an hour. My Mom: Radio Shack is on the way. You could stop there on the way and be here in 10 minutes. Me: Yes, Mom. 4 hrs later, I arrive. Had to stop at the bar, which was next to Radio Shack! |
|
Originally Posted By TriumphRider:
Great write-up! Thanks for posting. One question: So, it is safe to run a 120v generator to both sides of your load center? Is this only if you know for sure that you don't have any shared neutrals? In some of the threads in this forum I think it was stated that you shouldn't run both sides of the box because they would be the same phase and could overload any shared neutrals? I am interested because I just installed a new Siemens load center (got rid of the 30+ year old Federal Pacific fire-starter) and am wiring in a generator with a UL listed Siemens brand lockout in the new box. I know, i know, I should have bought a gen that has 240v output , but I got this one at a pretty good price and if there is any chance that I can run both sides SAFELY I'd like to do that til such time that I can upgrade.
Thanks, TriumphRider I did that and nothing blew up 
I have a L14-30 on my panel. I can either plug in my 5kw gen or my eu2000i. I built a 5-15p to l14-30r adapter with a jumper connecting 2 hots in the l14-30r to the 1 hot from the 5-15. I ran my eu2000i like this for 6 nights with no problem. Obviously all of the 220 breakers were turned off. |
|
Originally Posted By ar-jedi:
Originally Posted By CJan_NH:
snip mom: "hey, when you come over to your sister's today can you bring me a router?" me: "what? a router? for what?" mom: "your brother brought my computer from my house to your sister's. now i want to hook my computer up to her internet. i can't read the text on her iPad thingy, i like my big monitor with the big text. i think i need a router to connect the computer to so i have internet. the text is too small on the iPad." me: "you don't need a router, you just need a LAN cable to connect your computer to her FIOS router". mom: "ok whatever. can you get me a cable at Radio Shack? me: "no, i'll just make one up, it will take 5 minutes. how long do you need the cable to be?" mom: "how are you going to make it up? why don't you just go to Radio Shack and get one? i can't read the text on her iPad." me: "mom, i do this shit for a living. tell me how long should the cable be? 5 feet? 25 feet? 50 feet?" mom: "how can you make a cable? just go to Radio Shack! there is no way for me to see the tiny letters on the iPad. it's too small." me: MOM ––> 1) RADIO SHACK IS PROBABLY WITHOUT POWER. 2) I HAVE A GIANT REEL OF THE RAW CABLE. 3) I HAVE THE ENDS THAT GO ON THE CABLE. 4) I HAVE THE TOOL TO PUT THE ENDS ON THE CABLE. NOW, I'M NOT GOING TO RADIO SHACK, WHICH IS PROBABLY NOT OPEN ANYWAY. SO TELL ME HOW LONG THE CABLE SHOULD BE SO I CAN DO THIS FOR YOU AND DELIVER IT !!! mom: ok, don't get all huffy. how long? –– i don't know, about 20 feet? maybe 25 feet? do you have that much cable? is it expensive? the text on the iPad is so small.
ar-jedi Dude, you said "shit" yto your 74 year old Mother. There will be coal in your stocking this year
Great writeup, lots to think about. Thank you |
Pepper Spray U Alumni
12/23/72 1:00PM - Hating the Steelers for 40 years
Laphroaig "The ARFCOM booze fairy drops it off. Picture Ron Jeremy in a tutu. " -- capnrob97
12/23/72 1:00PM - Hating the Steelers for 40 years
Laphroaig "The ARFCOM booze fairy drops it off. Picture Ron Jeremy in a tutu. " -- capnrob97
|
Great AAR !!!
11 days without power here. I ran 2 Honda eu2000i's and also found that fuel handling was one of my weak spots. I'm ordering a dual feed extended run tank for them. And if you haven't done it yet now is a good time to give your babies some fresh Mobil 1. |
‘Bread and Circuses’ is the cancer of democracy, the fatal disease for which there is no cure.
|
ar-jedi -
You stated you were burning about 2 gallons of gasoline and 1/4 gallon of diesel / day. Any idea of how many KWhr you were racking up? Was the Honda running for 8-20hr straight or were you starting and stopping it as necessary? Just curious how much fuel might have been burned with little to no load on the genny. The reason I ask is I have an EU2000i as well and a full tank (1.1 gallons) running on low power (500-600 watts) represents about 4.5 KWhrs, so 2 gallons would be around 8.2 KWhrs. I have a back-up power system that is comprised of a Xantrex PROsine 2.0 inverter and 450 AH of golf cart batteries (@12V). After efficiency losses, I have about as much stored energy in the batteries as one tank-full on the EU2000i. I just ordered solar panels and an Outback charge controller to keep the system charged during long power outages. I'm trying to get an idea how realistic my setup is. I plan on using the inverter for intermittent loads like the furnace in the winter or the fridge and freezer in the summer and supplement as necessary with the EU2000i. I don't have any 240V loads that are needed during a SHTF event, but I would like to get a 12-15K genny for running the welder and the mill should I ever have to fab something up during a SHTF event. |
|
Originally Posted By SandHillsHillbilly:
Thanks for posting. What were you using for a heat source? Headlamps. I use the 5 LED Energizer from Walmart. Cheap enough to buy a handful and uses AAA batteries. Marine type extended run gas tank for the Honda also tri-fuel conversion. Agree the hot shower makes a big difference. Next is a hot meal. Trying to find us a full manual gas stove without any electronics. I have a very modern SS GE propane fueled cooktop with electronic ignition. When the power is out it still works, just have to light it with a match or lighter. |
A 230 grain hardball beats a major league fastball no matter who's pitching.
|
I Originally Posted By CarbineDad:
Originally Posted By ar-jedi:
Originally Posted By CJan_NH:
snip mom: "hey, when you come over to your sister's today can you bring me a router?" me: "what? a router? for what?" mom: "your brother brought my computer from my house to your sister's. now i want to hook my computer up to her internet. i can't read the text on her iPad thingy, i like my big monitor with the big text. i think i need a router to connect the computer to so i have internet. the text is too small on the iPad." me: "you don't need a router, you just need a LAN cable to connect your computer to her FIOS router". mom: "ok whatever. can you get me a cable at Radio Shack? me: "no, i'll just make one up, it will take 5 minutes. how long do you need the cable to be?" mom: "how are you going to make it up? why don't you just go to Radio Shack and get one? i can't read the text on her iPad." me: "mom, i do this [red]shit [/red] for a living. tell me how long should the cable be? 5 feet? 25 feet? 50 feet?" mom: "how can you make a cable? just go to Radio Shack! there is no way for me to see the tiny letters on the iPad. it's too small." me: MOM ––> 1) RADIO SHACK IS PROBABLY WITHOUT POWER. 2) I HAVE A GIANT REEL OF THE RAW CABLE. 3) I HAVE THE ENDS THAT GO ON THE CABLE. 4) I HAVE THE TOOL TO PUT THE ENDS ON THE CABLE. NOW, I'M NOT GOING TO RADIO SHACK, WHICH IS PROBABLY NOT OPEN ANYWAY. SO TELL ME HOW LONG THE CABLE SHOULD BE SO I CAN DO THIS FOR YOU AND DELIVER IT !!! mom: ok, don't get all huffy. how long? –– i don't know, about 20 feet? maybe 25 feet? do you have that much cable? is it expensive? the text on the iPad is so small.
ar-jedi Dude, you said "shit" yto your 74 year old Mother. There will be coal in your stocking this year
Great writeup, lots to think about. Thank you Im not sure where exactly AR-JEDI resides but if it is new jersey.....after spending 10 days there after the storm I dont think she was offended..... |
|
ar-jedi
Campmor ot RT 17 has an excellent assortment of Petzel head lamps. The model with the vertical adjustable light is my favorite. I remember a Makita drill in your shop, the new Makita model LXLM03 is amazing for run time and functionality, 9 HR on high-22 HR on low (low is bright enough ) Wal mart has a yellow funnel that is a perfect size for the EU2000i, short but necks down to a 25mm opening, eliminates the vibration/foam issue. I used four 1 quart clear glass jars for hot fueling. Glass because it is clear and light travels through it, after a few days you get pretty good at estimating how much fuel will fit in the tank. In my area of NJ, no propane trucks, or any other truck, could access our street for 16 days. My neighbor has a new whole house generator on propane, at the start of the storm he had 50%in his 1000 gallon tank. He ran dry on day 8, i think. Neighbor has septic pump, well, 3 furnaces.......I will not recommend a propane system unless the person also has a serious back up generator. Comfort food is mandatory, wife & kids really got a boost from it. |
| Nice write up, as far as headlamps. Petzls are fine, but pricey, I have 2 energizer ones I got off amazon that I like just as much and combined those cost as much as the petzl. |
Few people ever push themselves hard enough to know what a second wind feels like.
|
This is a great writeup, thanks ar-jedi.
I was expecting hear of slow running gas pumps. During Katrina in the HOU area, the fuel pumps ran slow ( due to clogged fuel filters in the pumps ) - it would take 15 minutes to get 5 gallons of gas... FOREVER - to pump 25 gallons into a vehicle. This multiplied the already high aggravation factor, by 10. I have a Coleman LED camp lantern ( similar to the one you have ) and loaded it with 4 NiMH " D " cells - then wired a 6V deer feeder solar panel to the battery pack. With an advertised 155 hour run time on alkaline batteries, I'm guessing a day in full sun would get 3 or 4 nights of use. Thanks again
|
|
Originally Posted By aa777888-2:
[I don't normally do the SF thing but I followed your post on the ham forum over here. I'm guessing you have roughly $3K invested in generator stuff. While I realize it's all sunk cost now, from a WAF/logistics point of view you'd be much better off with a small Generac automatic standby system. The small 7KW units all go for under $2K. You are clearly able to do the install yourself, so only sweat equity there. I did my own including the gas piping and it wasn't too hard. Maybe you could dump either EU2000 or the tractor PTO setup on Craigslist for say $1K and then you'd be in good shape to upgrade. Keep one of them as backup. i agree on all points above. my backup power approach is the result of "incrementalism". to wit –– i purchased the EU2000i in 2005 or so, when we owned a different house which had a municipal water supply. it did what we needed to do in that house, and there was no issue with water supply. when we moved here in 2009, i realized the problem regarding the well pump and started to look at options. of course one such option is a large capacity standby generator system (my brother recently had a 12KW Kohler setup installed so i know the going rate for this approach) and in the end that might be the best route for us as well. to that end –– for what i paid on the used PTO generator i can get back dollar-for-dollar, but i would probably not sell the EU2000i. we use it for camping and it's handy for a variety of off-site emergency use as well. what i am looking at short term is –– extended run tank/manifold system for the EU2000i –– e.g. link –– vacation in Turks and Caicos, or Mykonos, or someplace else without storms. ar-jedi 
|
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
|
Originally Posted By Whamo:
Great AAR !!! 11 days without power here. I ran 2 Honda eu2000i's and also found that fuel handling was one of my weak spots. I'm ordering a dual feed extended run tank for them. And if you haven't done it yet now is a good time to give your babies some fresh Mobil 1. i did not change the oil during the outage –– just checked it –– but have since put new M1 5W-30 in. ar-jedi |
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
|
Originally Posted By flattire:
Campmor ot RT 17 i hate that place. there is too much nice stuff to buy. plus if i go there my wife HAS to go to the Container Store.
Originally Posted By flattire:
has an excellent assortment of Petzel head lamps. The model with the vertical adjustable light is my favorite. i have to check these out. stocking stuffer opportunity. Originally Posted By flattire:
I remember a Makita drill in your shop, the new Makita model LXLM03 is amazing for run time and functionality, 9 HR on high-22 HR on low (low is bright enough ). http://www.amazon.com/Makita-LXLM03-18-Volt-Lithium-Ion-Flashlight/dp/B007ZOMKJ8 hmmm, never seen that before, preety cool! stocking stuffer opportunity...
Originally Posted By flattire:
Wal mart has a yellow funnel that is a perfect size for the EU2000i, short but necks down to a 25mm opening, eliminates the vibration/foam issue. I used four 1 quart clear glass jars for hot fueling. Glass because it is clear and light travels through it, after a few days you get pretty good at estimating how much fuel will fit in the tank.. i'm not crazy about fuel in glass jars –– too much to go wrong there. Originally Posted By flattire:
In my area of NJ, no propane trucks, or any other truck, could access our street for 16 days. My neighbor has a new whole house generator on propane, at the start of the storm he had 50%in his 1000 gallon tank. He ran dry on day 8, i think. Neighbor has septic pump, well, 3 furnaces.......I will not recommend a propane system unless the person also has a serious back up generator.. one of my neighbors up the street has a small (3500W-ish) generator which "the man of the house" claims can not run their sewage ejector pump. so based on his comments –– they have power, can store water, but can't flush the toilets since the septic field is uphill. i can't figure out how the ejector pump could possibly need more power than a single std duplex receptacle, unless the head is greater than about 50 feet –– which it can't possibly be –– the property is completely flat. amazes me, and i'm further amazed that one would not think this through and get a generator which *could* in fact run the ejector pump. Originally Posted By flattire:
Comfort food is mandatory, wife & kids really got a boost from it. this ^^^. ar-jedi |
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
|
Originally Posted By fundummy:
This is a great writeup, thanks ar-jedi. I was expecting hear of slow running gas pumps. During Katrina in the HOU area, the fuel pumps ran slow ( due to clogged fuel filters in the pumps ) - it would take 15 minutes to get 5 gallons of gas... FOREVER - to pump 25 gallons into a vehicle. This multiplied the already high aggravation factor, by 10. oh snap, i did forget to mention this!!! on the saturday or sunday after the storm, i put gas into the EU2000i at around 5AM and then –– since i was wide awake and cold (it was about 30'F out) –– i decided to try and get gas. i went about 5 miles in one direction, nothing open, and heard some chat on the PD frequencies which saved me some wasted time, and then went 5 miles in another direction, and found an open Exxon station with about 20 cars in line. this is a big station with about 10 pumps, so i thought, "OK no problem", well about 40 minutes later i get to the head of the line and it's obvious things are going way slow. i finally get to the pump, hop out, and start to fill two NATO cans. holy crap, i'm thinking, this is SLOOOOOOWWWWWWW. station guy comes over, "you good?". i say, "yeah, but it looks like the gas is dribbling out –– where's the pressure?" –– he replies, "it's really slow, we could be going twice as fast here but the fill rate is so slow..." anyway it took me about 15-20 minutes to put 10gal in the two cans and then about 10 gal in my truck.
that afternoon the whole odd/even rationing system started so i was spared from that. ar-jedi |
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Support the Foundation to Cure LeadFoot-itis
Joined:
Aug 2004
Posts:
9221
EE: 100% (2)
AR, USA
|
This is more of a Tagscribe than anything...
But after reading the OP, the only thing I noticed (being a monday morning QB) is no mention of a chainsaw for the inevitable limbs, and security for leaving the premises or while taking a shower. I'd stand watch for the generator while the wife is showering, and vice versa. And by standing watch I dont necessarily mean "at the door with a gun" but within earshot of the tractor with a gun easily accessible.
Will read further later. |
"Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men. " Ayn Rand
|
Originally Posted By Rock_Ranger:
You stated you were burning about 2 gallons of gasoline and 1/4 gallon of diesel / day. Any idea of how many KWhr you were racking up? Was the Honda running for 8-20hr straight or were you starting and stopping it as necessary? Just curious how much fuel might have been burned with little to no load on the genny. no idea how many KW-hrs. next time there is a long term power outage i need to plug my little Kill-a-Watt meter *at* the generator. in the beginning, i was running the EU2000i about 10 hours a day, mainly just to keep the fridge/freezer cold. after the third or fourth day, with overnight temperatures dropping below 30'F, i was running the EU2000i about 20hrs/day. i never ran the unit out of fuel, and as i mentioned i began "hot-fueling" after a couple of days. my consumption numbers are based on the amount of fuel i started with (25gal), how much i bought during (10gal), and how much i have left now (~15gal). there are a couple of sources of error here, namely the EU2000i tank was full when things went dark, and the fact that i made up a gallon of 2 cycle pre-mix for the chainsaw and leaf blower, etc etc etc but i think 2 gal/24hrs is a reasonable long-term estimate for running my fridge, furnace blower, some kitchen lights, episodic "high power" loads like the Keurig coffee machine, and then a small background load (FIOS box and router, laptop power supplies (x2), cellphone charger, AA battery charger, etc). http://www.p3international.com/products/special/p4400/p4400-ce.html ar-jedi |
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
|
Originally Posted By MoparMike:
But after reading the OP, the only thing I noticed (being a monday morning QB) is no mention of a chainsaw for the inevitable limbs. pictured but not mentioned on page 1 is my Stihl: http://wopr.losdos.dyndns.org/gallery2/d/38272-2/DSCN8581.JPG i have three chains, a couple of quarts of bar oil, and about 8 gallons worth of 2cycle oil in 1 gal size portions. the reason that there is a 2x6 in that picture is because i managed, despite being very careful (esp with downed trees) to bind the chain in a kerf. i used the 2x6 to jack the tree a bit and unpinch the bar/chain. this picture is a reminder for me to get a second bar, because binding the saw up in a 6" dia tree is one thing, but binding in a 12" dia tree is another altogether. in the latter case it's often just easier to remove the powerhead from the stuck bar/chain, mount the second bar/chain, and keep going. getting stuck in a kerf is always a hazard with storm-damaged trees because of the latent stress. Originally Posted By MoparMike:
and security for leaving the premises or while taking a shower. I'd stand watch for the generator while the wife is showering, and vice versa. And by standing watch I dont necessarily mean "at the door with a gun" but within earshot of the tractor with a gun easily accessible. i didn't have many security concerns. this is partially due to the locale, partially due to the layout of the property, and partially due to the signature. for example, with the EU2000i running, it was not possible to hear it from the street. in fact, from our street very large very noisy generators from the not-so-close next street over could be heard. but not the EU2000i. i covered over the LED with painter's tape as well to make it all but impossible to detect visually. on many occasions we left for the day with the EU2000i running. nevertheless the generator was always cabled down. as for the tractor with PTO generator, i would not get that running and then leave –– too much to go wrong there. ar-jedi |
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
|
Originally Posted By Foxxz:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004ZSAS82/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i00 http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41TZJPj2pdL._SX450_.jpg For the Honda... Oil change tube. Magnetic oil drain plug. Gas cap to allow attaching to a larger gas can. Fill the tank about half way full and put a tube on the gas cap into a gas can. The generator will siphon gas from the container as it runs. Any idea if this gas cap will work with a vehicle gas tank? I want to use my Honda generator with my motorhome. |
P.M. Triluminar #117 GL of WVa
Bethesda Chapter #16 R.A.M.
Shenandoah Forest #150 Tall Cedars of Lebanon.
Noble of the Osiris Shrine.
Bethesda Chapter #16 R.A.M.
Shenandoah Forest #150 Tall Cedars of Lebanon.
Noble of the Osiris Shrine.
|
Great write-up, thanks for sharing your insights. A few comments/questions: why did you hot fuel instead of shutting down the Honda for a few minutes? Were you running something that could not be shut off?
I would also echo the comment re: tri-fuel, we also had major gasoline availability issues where I am, but we were able to get propane no problem. Propane is also easier to store. And if you go natural gas (I haven't yet), using NG as the primary fuel with both propane and gas as back-ups, it would be a major upgrade to your generator fuel availability. I also agree with your comments re flashlights, my Fenix LD-15 saw far more use than my super bright lights. It goes 39 hours on low (8 lumens) and uses a single AA battery. It also has a high mode (117 lumens) that lasts 1.5 hours. You can carry it in your pocket all day and night long without even noticing. For me it was perfect for a long outage. ETA: Forgot my biggest question, can you really use a Kill a Watt device to measure how much an appliance is using off a generator? The current would be flowing the opposite direction through the killawatt, wouldn't it? Not sure it makes any difference, but figured I'd ask if you had actually used it that way. |
|
Originally Posted By ar-jedi:
i never ran the unit out of fuel, and as i mentioned i began "hot-fueling" after a couple of days. my consumption numbers are based on the amount of fuel i started with (25gal), how much i bought during (10gal), and how much i have left now (~15gal). there are a couple of sources of error here, namely the EU2000i tank was full when things went dark, and the fact that i made up a gallon of 2 cycle pre-mix for the chainsaw and leaf blower, etc etc etc but i think 2 gal/24hrs is a reasonable long-term estimate for running my fridge, furnace blower, some kitchen lights, episodic "high power" loads like the Keurig coffee machine, and then a small background load (FIOS box and router, laptop power supplies (x2), cellphone charger, AA battery charger, etc). http://www.p3international.com/products/special/p4400/p4400-ce.html ar-jedi Thanks for the feedback! |
|
Thank you for sharing your experience. I think the most useful flashlight for myself is a variable power head light. We live in a rural farming area, and it gets used just about every day.
We purchased a set of Fenix hp11 headlights that run on our rechargeable AA's. I would buy them again at twice the cost. http://www.batteryjunction.com/fenix-hp11.html |
It's true no matter who you are, the worst thing you can do for someone is give them something for nothing. - 3rdpig
Do not handicap your children by making their lives easy. - Heinlein
Do not handicap your children by making their lives easy. - Heinlein
|
Originally Posted By MikeSH:
Originally Posted By Foxxz:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004ZSAS82/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i00 http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41TZJPj2pdL._SX450_.jpg For the Honda... Oil change tube. Magnetic oil drain plug. Gas cap to allow attaching to a larger gas can. Fill the tank about half way full and put a tube on the gas cap into a gas can. The generator will siphon gas from the container as it runs. Any idea if this gas cap will work with a vehicle gas tank? I want to use my Honda generator with my motorhome. My post may have not been clear... You put that gas cap on the honda genny. The gas cap has threads for you to attach a hose to the gas cap. You run the hose into a gas can or in your case an RV gas tank and the honda should be able to siphon out the gas if it doesn't require too much effort. |
|
i had enough of sandy, 50,000 sq foot building flooded with four to five feet.
no power for a week. my buddy came down with fuel, genny, etc... life was good. had hot water but can care less about being perfectly showered / groomed..lol. so many have it so much worse. still have plenty of fuel. it was funny to hear the king kong gennys running wide open, to fall silent as the week wore on and fuel become non existant. reports of gennys getting stolen, and some asswipes got cuffed and stuffed for siphoning gas from peoples cars. neighbors where losing it after a week. not many where any kind of prepared. |
|
Originally Posted By ar-jedi:
Originally Posted By JAD762:
I don't know about anyone else, but I'd like to be educated to the what and how of your genny set up on that tractor if you've got the time. what sort of info are you looking for? the alternator head is a 2pole TigerPower 10KW unit, circa 2005. my tractor PTO, as with most tractors, turns the PTO at 540RPM when the engine is set to the RPM coincident with the torque peak (this is by design). there is a small gearbox, mounted to the alternator head, which converts the 540RPM input to 3600RPM output. the gearbox is oil-filled with 90wt. in general you will need about 1.6HP at the PTO for every KW of power produced. note: oversizing the alternator head versus the tractor power will result in greater startup current availability due to the added rotational inertia of the heavier rotor. i made a wheeled skirt for it so it is easier for me to wheel around in the garage or workshop. ar-jedi http://wopr.losdos.dyndns.org/gallery2/d/36958-1/DSCN8258.JPG http://wopr.losdos.dyndns.org/gallery2/d/36988-1/DSCN8259.JPG i rec'd an IM about the PTO generator setup and i wanted to answer it here so everyone gets the info... above, i wrote, my tractor PTO, as with most tractors, turns the PTO at 540RPM when the engine is set to the RPM coincident with the torque peak (this is by design). there is a small gearbox, mounted to the alternator head, which converts the 540RPM input to 3600RPM output. now then, the PTO generator, like *any* direct-coupled generator, must run at a fixed RPM to produce 60Hz AC at the correct voltage. for a 2 pole alternator head, that means 3600RPM, and for a 4 pole alternator head, that means 1800RPM. as noted above, there is a set of gears on the PTO generator itself which "upconverts" the 540RPM tractor input to 3600RPM output for the alternator head. (note: power loss in a helical-cut gearset of this type is low –– on the order of a percent or two). note: unlike a car throttle (aka "gas pedal"), a diesel tractor throttle can be "set" and a flyball governor internal to the engine will "hold" the set RPM up until it can't hold it due to load. this end state is usually accompanied by a lot of black smoke as the governor injects more and more diesel fuel in an attempt to produce more power. the tractor that i have has a single, fixed PTO gearing. the PTO speed is related to the engine RPM, and as noted above the way *every* tractor is engineered is that when the PTO is turning 540 RPM the engine is operating at it's torque peak RPM. (actually, i believe the way they are designed is that the engine is slightly above the RPM associated with the torque peak –– this way, when the engine slows a bit during heavy use (e.g. tilling tough soil, etc) the torque actually goes up somewhat to overcome the load. but for all intents and purposes it is useful to know that 540RPM PTO speed is closely aligned with the torque peak of the engine.) of course you can set the throttle to a lower engine RPM, and you'll get fewer RPM at the PTO –– but this is not useful for a PTO generator; as noted, it has to turn at a specific speed to produce 60Hz power. the individual who IM'd me noted that his (larger) tractor has a two speed PTO –– it can be set to run at 540RPM nominal //OR// 1000RPM nominal. he was wondering if the PTO speed selector can be set to 1000RPM and then the engine will not have to run at a high RPM –– it can run at a lower RPM –– around half (1000/540 ~= 2). this is an option which, ideally, will conserve fuel since the engine is turning slower. the answer is "yes, you can do this" but it requires an appreciation for how much power the engine makes at the lower RPM and how much power the load is drawing from the generator head. in other words, let's suppose that instead of the engine running at 2600RPM to give 540 actual PTO RPM using the 540 PTO RPM setting, the engine is run at 1300 RPM to give 540 actual PTO RPM using the 1000 PTO RPM setting. clearly the engine does not make as much power/torque at 1300RPM compared to 2600RPM. whether is makes *enough* is the question. for example: a large Ag tractor with a 100HP rated engine might make 40HP at 1300RPM –– this is EASILY enough to drive to full output a 10KW or even 20KW PTO generator head. so in this case the reduced power output at the lower RPM is really of no consequence, and using the 1000 RPM PTO setting *should* reduce full consumption. but a smaller tractor, say 30HP, might only make 10HP at the lower RPM. this is not enough power for full output from a 10KW generator head –– it may be enough for a reduced end load, but it can not provide a full 10KW. so the answer, as usual, is "it depends".
ar-jedi |
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
|
Originally Posted By Nunya:
A few comments/questions: why did you hot fuel instead of shutting down the Honda for a few minutes? Were you running something that could not be shut off? hot fueling usually avoided a quick stop and restart –– which usually doesn't make compressors (like the fridge) happy. Originally Posted By Nunya:
ETA: Forgot my biggest question, can you really use a Kill a Watt device to measure how much an appliance is using off a generator? The current would be flowing the opposite direction through the killawatt, wouldn't it? Not sure it makes any difference, but figured I'd ask if you had actually used it that way. the Kill-a-Watt will work just fine. the backup generator is supplying electrical power, just like your utility company normally does. the Kill-a-Watt measures the power consumed by the load, and it does not care one way or the other whether the power is coming from a generator or the utility company. ar-jedi |
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
|
Originally Posted By lumper:
Thank you for sharing your experience. I think the most useful flashlight for myself is a variable power head light. We live in a rural farming area, and it gets used just about every day. We purchased a set of Fenix hp11 headlights that run on our rechargeable AA's. I would buy them again at twice the cost. http://www.batteryjunction.com/fenix-hp11.html more Black Friday stocking stuffers...
ar-jedi |
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
|
Originally Posted By Foxxz:
Originally Posted By MikeSH:
Originally Posted By Foxxz:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004ZSAS82/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i00 http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41TZJPj2pdL._SX450_.jpg For the Honda... Oil change tube. Magnetic oil drain plug. Gas cap to allow attaching to a larger gas can. Fill the tank about half way full and put a tube on the gas cap into a gas can. The generator will siphon gas from the container as it runs. Any idea if this gas cap will work with a vehicle gas tank? I want to use my Honda generator with my motorhome. My post may have not been clear... You put that gas cap on the honda genny. The gas cap has threads for you to attach a hose to the gas cap. You run the hose into a gas can or in your case an RV gas tank and the honda should be able to siphon out the gas if it doesn't require too much effort. Nope, your post was clear. I wasn't sure that the siphon/suction would be enough to draw from a vehicle tank. In the pics I've seen here the gas cans were not elevated but neither were they very much lower. Thanks. |
P.M. Triluminar #117 GL of WVa
Bethesda Chapter #16 R.A.M.
Shenandoah Forest #150 Tall Cedars of Lebanon.
Noble of the Osiris Shrine.
Bethesda Chapter #16 R.A.M.
Shenandoah Forest #150 Tall Cedars of Lebanon.
Noble of the Osiris Shrine.
|
Originally Posted By ar-jedi:
Originally Posted By fundummy:
This is a great writeup, thanks ar-jedi. I was expecting hear of slow running gas pumps. During Katrina in the HOU area, the fuel pumps ran slow ( due to clogged fuel filters in the pumps ) - it would take 15 minutes to get 5 gallons of gas... FOREVER - to pump 25 gallons into a vehicle. This multiplied the already high aggravation factor, by 10. oh snap, i did forget to mention this!!! on the saturday or sunday after the storm, i put gas into the EU2000i at around 5AM and then –– since i was wide awake and cold (it was about 30'F out) –– i decided to try and get gas. i went about 5 miles in one direction, nothing open, and heard some chat on the PD frequencies which saved me some wasted time, and then went 5 miles in another direction, and found an open Exxon station with about 20 cars in line. this is a big station with about 10 pumps, so i thought, "OK no problem", well about 40 minutes later i get to the head of the line and it's obvious things are going way slow. i finally get to the pump, hop out, and start to fill two NATO cans. holy crap, i'm thinking, this is SLOOOOOOWWWWWWW. station guy comes over, "you good?". i say, "yeah, but it looks like the gas is dribbling out –– where's the pressure?" –– he replies, "it's really slow, we could be going twice as fast here but the fill rate is so slow..." anyway it took me about 15-20 minutes to put 10gal in the two cans and then about 10 gal in my truck. Interesting... IIRC, the fuel filter is located in the pump's filler hose. If you happened to have a few spare filters with you (assuming all pumps use the same filter size), you could probably make a gas station attendant and your fellow customers VERY happy - maybe even get some bonus gas for your trouble. |
"The skin of civilization is only 7 meals thick..."
|
Originally Posted By ar-jedi:
Originally Posted By CostaRicaJones:
Thanks for sharing your experience. Glad to hear you're fine. When you have time, can you please post a link to the type of flashlights you'll be buying, now? i am going to get more of these on BlackFriday –– good flood area, and a nightlight that runs forever. http://www.amazon.com/Energizer-Weather-Ready-Folding-Lantern/dp/B001D937SY ar-jedi http://www.brightguy.com/images/products/large/ENEFL452WRBP.jpg Ran a couple of those in the April 27th storms of last year. Got about 5~6 days on a set of D batteries running it maybe 4~5 hours in the evening. As you say, you need area lighting, not a high intensity focused light that runs for an hour or so. Those lights are a very good solution. ETA: Make sure you store those lights with batteries out. I made the mistake of leaving a set of batteries in after using it on a multi-hour outage a year or so before. Apparently partially discharged batteries are much more prone to bursting and leakage. Ruined one of my three lamps that way, which of course was discovered after the storm. |
|
Here in the Lehigh Valley, power was down for a week. Hot water was gas, so yes, it was great to be able to get a got shower in every day. But roads were a mess with lots of trees and wires down. I didn't see a working traffic signal for miles, but most people seemed to be on their best behavior and "four way stop" rules were adopted even before the police put up temporary stop signs.
Most of the gas stations around here remained open running on gennies. Our infrastructure is pretty old around here, so we tend to loose power every time someone sneezes too hard! The local gas stations are used to it. Resupply of gas for the stations was iffy. The independent stations were not getting resupplied, so when they ran out, they were done for a while. The big boys (Mobile, Exxon, BP, etc) were never short or out of gas. I was toting 25 gals a day in NATO cans for my coworkers in NJ so they could continue to get to work. NJ was slow off the mark in making sure essential workers could get fuel. In the end a local (in NJ, not my local) gas station was enlisted and you would flash your ID to the cops on duty and get your car filled. Which meant I could stop hauling gas. My one epic fail during this time was of my own making. I only like two kinds of coffee, espresso and french Press. I had procrastinated on picking up a French press for ages and was caught flat footed when the power went out and my beloved espresso machine fell silent. Fixed that problem the second day after the storm when I hit a local department store and picked one up. Hot showers and hot coffee went a long way towards smoothing out the rough edges. Prior to the storm hitting I had loaded my I Pad with several books, some movies, and the entire first season of "Game Of Thrones". This one prep was a big help in keeping boredom at bay in the evenings. Kept the I Pad charged with the car charger (My Xterra will charge things even if the engine is not running). Having no internet was a pain though. Head lamps are the bomb. I have a bunch of Princeton Tech "Fuel" head lamps. Can pick them up at Dicks for between $15 and $19 depending on sales. It's a simple and very light weight head lamp that uses AAA batteries and casts a pretty good beam. Saw a lot of use over the week. I keep one in each car, the BOB, and in my pack that I take to work. I also have a crap load of those cheapo 9 LED lights that Harbor Freight was giving away with a coupon. I hit them up at least three times a week while that was going on. You can not open a drawer in my place without finding one of these lights. For general lighting in the house I was using my Dietz #8's, huge fuel tanks that only need to be topped up once a day. All in all, it was like a week long indoor camping trip. Only got a little shaky on the last couple of days when the temps dipped and I had to break out my Little Buddy heaters. Need to pick up the adapters for the larger tanks, as I went through half my stores of the small tanks rather quickly. Glad you fared as well (or better) Jedi, great AAR. stasiman |
"If it sounds too good to be true, best to shoot it right away." Fiona
|
Originally Posted By Stasiman:
My one epic fail during this time was of my own making. I only like two kinds of coffee, espresso and french Press. I had procrastinated on picking up a French press for ages and was caught flat footed when the power went out and my beloved espresso machine fell silent. glad to hear you survived that SHTF situation!!! lol. 
ar-jedi |
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
|
Originally Posted By ar-jedi:
Originally Posted By Stasiman:
My one epic fail during this time was of my own making. I only like two kinds of coffee, espresso and french Press. I had procrastinated on picking up a French press for ages and was caught flat footed when the power went out and my beloved espresso machine fell silent. glad to hear you survived that SHTF situation!!! lol.
ar-jedi Got to love this place. We are so prepared the biggest issue is we dont have french press!
|
NRA Life Member
| To the OP, glad to see things went "well" for you and you were prepared. I guess I am fortunate for being in AZ as far as natural disasters go. the only thing i REALLY worry about here is jun-aug (or may-oct i u want to count anything above 100*). would there be any easy way to hook the home A/C (ground mounted) to a generator? I had my A/C go out this past early july and it took 2 days to get someone out to fix it and inside temps with windows open and fans on stayed at 97-98* during the day and 90-91 at night. |
|
Originally Posted By paul1911:
Got to love this place. We are so prepared the biggest issue is we dont have french press! My French press is an integral part of my emergency/survival equipment. Now, if I can just find a solar-powered bean grinder I'll be in business.
|
As a general rule, I'm always wary of total strangers who have the authority to totally ass-rape my life - runcible
|
Originally Posted By azmp5:
the only thing i REALLY worry about here is jun-aug (or may-oct i u want to count anything above 100*). would there be any easy way to hook the home A/C (ground mounted) to a generator? Unless you've got a good-sized generator (something roughly the size of ar-jedi's tractor PTO-powered model), you won't be able to run your central A/C with it. The power consumption of even a small central air system is just too large for most portable generators to start and run. However, even a small portable generator will start and run at least one small window A/C unit. For example, the 5,000 BTU GE model that Wal-Mart sells only consumes around 500 watts - and can be started with most generators larger than 1KW. (BlackOperations has even used his little Harbor Freight 800 watt 2-stroke generator to run his 5,000 BTU window unit). Aside from being inexpensive and power-stingy, these small window units are lightweight enough to easily install in a window when needed, and can be stored in their shipping boxs the rest of the time. Although you won't be able to cool an entire house with one unit, it'll make one or two small rooms MUCH more comfortable, by reducing the humidity. |
"The skin of civilization is only 7 meals thick..."
|
Originally Posted By ar-jedi:
Originally Posted By aa777888-2:
Anything looking for 240V is potentially not going to be happy in a break-things-sort-of-way seeing the same phase on both legs. how so? ar-jedi A device that operates entirely on 240V power like a well pump or water heater will effectively see no power at all since there is no voltage differential between the two hot legs. These devices will certainly have no issues with the "dual 120V" power hack. Other devices that are partially 240V but have 120V components as well like stoves and dryers would generally have their controls powered (120V) and possibly 120V dryer motors, but have no power for heating elements. Those appliances wouldn't be operable, but no damage would be done. I can't think of any 240V devices likely to be found in a home that would actually be damaged by having "dual 120V" power applied. Where you get into trouble is when you have a 240V center tapped service (normal 120-0-120V service) and you loose the neutral connection. You end up with a parallel series network of 120V devices across the 240V circuit, i.e. two 120V devices in series across 240V. This would be ok if it were say two 100W light bulbs, where the load/resistance is balanced, but the reality is that the loads on each half of the series connection are not balanced and thus you have a resistive voltage divider arrangment where the voltage across either of the loads can vary as devices are turned on and off. This leads to some 120V devices receiving far less than 120V which can say stall and burn out a refrigerator compressor, and some receiving far more than 120V which blows light bulbs and can of course fry devices that require 120V. With the 120-240V input power supplies prevalent these days, at least those devices are unlikely to be damaged by such overvoltage. |
|
Originally Posted By paul1911:
Originally Posted By ar-jedi:
Originally Posted By Stasiman:
My one epic fail during this time was of my own making. I only like two kinds of coffee, espresso and french Press. I had procrastinated on picking up a French press for ages and was caught flat footed when the power went out and my beloved espresso machine fell silent. glad to hear you survived that SHTF situation!!! lol.
ar-jedi Got to love this place. We are so prepared the biggest issue is we dont have french press! Thank god my heated toilet seat was working just fine. ( happy wife ) |
|
Originally Posted By wp6529:
Originally Posted By ar-jedi:
Originally Posted By aa777888-2:
Anything looking for 240V is potentially not going to be happy in a break-things-sort-of-way seeing the same phase on both legs. how so? ar-jedi A device that operates entirely on 240V power like a well pump or water heater will effectively see no power at all since there is no voltage differential between the two hot legs. These devices will certainly have no issues with the "dual 120V" power hack. Other devices that are partially 240V but have 120V components as well like stoves and dryers would generally have their controls powered (120V) and possibly 120V dryer motors, but have no power for heating elements. Those appliances wouldn't be operable, but no damage would be done. I can't think of any 240V devices likely to be found in a home that would actually be damaged by having "dual 120V" power applied. Where you get into trouble is when you have a 240V center tapped service (normal 120-0-120V service) and you loose the neutral connection. You end up with a parallel series network of 120V devices across the 240V circuit, i.e. two 120V devices in series across 240V. This would be ok if it were say two 100W light bulbs, where the load/resistance is balanced, but the reality is that the loads on each half of the series connection are not balanced and thus you have a resistive voltage divider arrangment where the voltage across either of the loads can vary as devices are turned on and off. This leads to some 120V devices receiving far less than 120V which can say stall and burn out a refrigerator compressor, and some receiving far more than 120V which blows light bulbs and can of course fry devices that require 120V. With the 120-240V input power supplies prevalent these days, at least those devices are unlikely to be damaged by such overvoltage. ^^^ all this agrees with my understanding as well. ar-jedi |
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery