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Posted: 9/2/2025 7:18:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: ELittlefield][Edited]
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Hello, I started a thread on this topic in GD, and got GD answers. Meaning some good and a lot of bad. Here. So I'll start again here. On my farm, we have radios so our tractors can talk to each other. We have a business license for them. This license was set up and has been maintained by my father, but he doesn't know anything about the technical aspect of it. They've been just a utility to us, i.e. "push button to make work." I want to add a number of handheld units for general emergency preparedness, and I want to learn a little more about how this technology works. What is a good set of equipment to look into? I'll go through the guy who set up our license for a few units, but I also want to know how to set up additional radios myself in an emergency situation. Our farm includes parcels of land on an area about 12 miles across at the widest. One of my biggest interests is, in an emergency, how can I get my radio network to talk to neighboring farms' radios? Is that something I could do with a laptop and programming cable in an emergency? If this is an inappropriate or illegal question, please delete just this paragraph, or I can too. I am purely asking about how the technology works, and I do not intend to do this in a Rule of Law situation. My understanding is that in extremis, expanded use of radio equipment is lawful. We have two UHF frequencies on our license, 0.650 MHz apart, in the 400 range. We're assigned a territory of a circle with a 20 mile radius centered on our home farm, which includes all of our land and more. Our Effective Radiated Power limit is 45 (not sure what units this figure implies). We are permitted 15 devices on our license, and we currently operate 8. I'd like to add 3 installed units in our pickup trucks, and set up 3 more man portable radios, in addition to stockpiling some additional man portable radios that I would only set up and use in an emergency. Once I have a radio installed in my pickup truck, should I turn it off when I leave my assigned territory, i.e. more than 20 miles straight line from home? I'm also interested in communication security. Can potential bad guys triangulate our positions with commercially available equipment? Can bad guys detect the fact that we're transmitting, and lock in on our frequency to listen in? I swear I'm not trying to ask for anything illegal, I just want to know the capabilities and risks associated with using radio in an emergency. I will probably have additional questions, but I'll try to ask them in their own posts below. Should I get a HAM license, even though I don't currently intend to set up a HAM system? If so, where do I begin studying and learning? Is there something I'm simply missing in my view of how this stuff works? Any faulty premises? What do you have on your farm? Thank you all for your responses. |
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Originally Posted By ELittlefield: Hello, I started a thread on this topic in GD, and got GD answers. Meaning some good and a lot of bad. Here. So I'll start again here. On my farm, we have radios so our tractors can talk to each other. We have a business license for them. This license was set up and has been maintained by my father, but he doesn't know anything about the technical aspect of it. They've been just a utility to us, i.e. "push button to make work." I want to add a number of handheld units for general emergency preparedness, and I want to learn a little more about how this technology works. What is a good set of equipment to look into? I'll go through the guy who set up our license for a few units, but I also want to know how to set up additional radios myself in an emergency situation. Our farm includes parcels of land on an area about 12 miles across at the widest. One of my biggest interests is, in an emergency, how can I get my radio network to talk to neighboring farms' radios? Is that something I could do with a laptop and programming cable in an emergency? If this is an inappropriate or illegal question, please delete just this paragraph, or I can too. I am purely asking about how the technology works, and I do not intend to do this in a Rule of Law situation. My understanding is that in extremis, expanded use of radio equipment is lawful. We have two UHF frequencies on our license, 0.650 MHz apart, in the 400 range. We're assigned a territory of a circle with a 20 mile radius centered on our home farm, which includes all of our land and more. Our Effective Radiated Power limit is 45 (not sure what units this figure implies). We are permitted 15 devices on our license, and we currently operate 8. I'd like to add 3 installed units in our pickup trucks, and set up 3 more man portable radios, in addition to stockpiling some additional man portable radios that I would only set up and use in an emergency. Aside from knowing how (good practice), I'd have your spare radios programed and ready to go, batteries out, but charge them every few month to keep them fresh. 1. Once I have a radio installed in my pickup truck, should I turn it off when I leave my assigned territory, i.e. more than 20 miles straight line from home? No, No technical reason to, other than, you want to, its yours. I'm also interested in communication security. Can potential bad guys triangulate our positions with commercially available equipment? Can bad guys detect the fact that we're transmitting, and lock in on our frequency to listen in? I swear I'm not trying to ask for anything illegal, I just want to know the capabilities and risks associated with using radio in an emergency. I will probably have additional questions, but I'll try to ask them in their own posts below. Assume any radio frequency transmitted on, can be traced and tract, no matter the band. If someone has the know how, equipment and desire. Also, even if you know the ""Privacy Codes"" assume others have the ability to listen. Privacy codes do not mean, private channel or encryption. There is no Expectation of privacy when transmitting. Should I get a HAM license, even though I don't currently intend to set up a HAM system? If so, where do I begin studying and learning? I think its always wise to have a Amateur Radio license and to learn, I have my GMRS and Amateur Tech license, working on my General. There are many study sights, like www.hamradioprep.com www.hamexam.org and others... Everyone has their favorite. Is there something I'm simply missing in my view of how this stuff works? Any faulty premises? What do you have on your farm? Thank you all for your responses. There is a Ham/Amateur radio forum that you may wish to check out too, lots of knowlege and opinions on related topics there. If you have questions just ask. Asking and googling is how you learn. Or one of a few ways. Hope the above helps. |
LARUEMINATI
NRA Endowment Life Member
Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:
""AKs are for villagers you have to tell not to shit in their water supply.""
NRA Endowment Life Member
Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:
""AKs are for villagers you have to tell not to shit in their water supply.""
Joined:
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Originally Posted By smullen: There are lots of opinions on radio stuff... Many people know everything, everyone else is an idiot. There is a Ham/Amateur radio forum that you may wish to check out too, lots of knowlege and opinions on related topics there. If you have questions just ask. Asking and googling is how you learn. Or one of a few ways. Hope the above helps. Originally Posted By smullen: Originally Posted By ELittlefield: Hello, I started a thread on this topic in GD, and got GD answers. Meaning some good and a lot of bad. Here. So I'll start again here. On my farm, we have radios so our tractors can talk to each other. We have a business license for them. This license was set up and has been maintained by my father, but he doesn't know anything about the technical aspect of it. They've been just a utility to us, i.e. "push button to make work." I want to add a number of handheld units for general emergency preparedness, and I want to learn a little more about how this technology works. What is a good set of equipment to look into? I'll go through the guy who set up our license for a few units, but I also want to know how to set up additional radios myself in an emergency situation. Our farm includes parcels of land on an area about 12 miles across at the widest. One of my biggest interests is, in an emergency, how can I get my radio network to talk to neighboring farms' radios? Is that something I could do with a laptop and programming cable in an emergency? If this is an inappropriate or illegal question, please delete just this paragraph, or I can too. I am purely asking about how the technology works, and I do not intend to do this in a Rule of Law situation. My understanding is that in extremis, expanded use of radio equipment is lawful. We have two UHF frequencies on our license, 0.650 MHz apart, in the 400 range. We're assigned a territory of a circle with a 20 mile radius centered on our home farm, which includes all of our land and more. Our Effective Radiated Power limit is 45 (not sure what units this figure implies). We are permitted 15 devices on our license, and we currently operate 8. I'd like to add 3 installed units in our pickup trucks, and set up 3 more man portable radios, in addition to stockpiling some additional man portable radios that I would only set up and use in an emergency. Aside from knowing how (good practice), I'd have your spare radios programed and ready to go, batteries out, but charge them every few month to keep them fresh. 1. Once I have a radio installed in my pickup truck, should I turn it off when I leave my assigned territory, i.e. more than 20 miles straight line from home? No, No technical reason to, other than, you want to, its yours. I'm also interested in communication security. Can potential bad guys triangulate our positions with commercially available equipment? Can bad guys detect the fact that we're transmitting, and lock in on our frequency to listen in? I swear I'm not trying to ask for anything illegal, I just want to know the capabilities and risks associated with using radio in an emergency. I will probably have additional questions, but I'll try to ask them in their own posts below. Assume any radio frequency transmitted on, can be traced and tract, no matter the band. If someone has the know how, equipment and desire. Also, even if you know the ""Privacy Codes"" assume others have the ability to listen. Privacy codes do not mean, private channel or encryption. There is no Expectation of privacy when transmitting. Should I get a HAM license, even though I don't currently intend to set up a HAM system? If so, where do I begin studying and learning? I think its always wise to have a Amateur Radio license and to learn, I have my GMRS and Amateur Tech license, working on my General. There are many study sights, like www.hamradioprep.com www.hamexam.org and others... Everyone has their favorite. Is there something I'm simply missing in my view of how this stuff works? Any faulty premises? What do you have on your farm? Thank you all for your responses. There is a Ham/Amateur radio forum that you may wish to check out too, lots of knowlege and opinions on related topics there. If you have questions just ask. Asking and googling is how you learn. Or one of a few ways. Hope the above helps. That’s helpful, thanks. Regarding opposition forces triangulating me, is it something that guys with a 25 dollar Baofeng and a laptop can do to me, or more like the odds of a guy coming after me with quad tube NODs? How is it actually done? And yes, I’m fully aware this is highly unlikely. |
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Originally Posted By ELittlefield: That's helpful, thanks. Regarding opposition forces triangulating me, is it something that guys with a 25 dollar Baofeng and a laptop can do to me, or more like the odds of a guy coming after me with quad tube NODs? How is it actually done? And yes, I'm fully aware this is highly unlikely. No laptop needed, a guy or a few guys with Baofengs, SDRs or other radios rxing the same band, probably using a home brew yagi or some type of antenna would work, it'd be better/easier with a slightly better radio with some type of better vu/signal strength indicator to watch as they wave back and forth to see which way its the strongest, that's the way to head. Do a Google for Amateur radio fox hunts. Even youtube. Lots of ham clubs do them for fun and prizes for practice. The transmitter usually puts out much less power than your radio would. I think the one our club has is less than a quarter of a watt, trying g to make it harder. Unless sh1t really hits the fan and they hear you jabbering about your supplies and resurces its really unlikely a team of rogue radio Ninjas are gonna come kick in your door... I'd say probably not, but not impossible... Do you have somethin worth their effort and their risk? This is why you hear a lot of comsec/Opsec talk here from time to time... Learn to rotate channels, times, speak in codes, set up meeting areas with codes for them... Ex: Meet me in St. Louis at 4, which really means Mom's house... Times could be offset by some number. Or Meet up at the Blue waffle at 87... Whatever code you make up, that'd be known only to you and your other party... Unless we're talking long term "walking dead" tupe scanario, you have a better chance of not reaching who ever you'd want to reach, than getting tracked and jacked. Finding out, who and hiw, from where is super important... Besides live for radio play, This is another reason why ham guys have weekly nets, both repeater nets and simplex nets/ radio to radio... I'm in 2 semi-local clubs, One has a repeater net, Mondays at 7pm, and a simplex Thursdays at 7, the other club just has Sundays at 7... The simplex net, let's you try out where you can reach who in case of a repeater loosing power or somehow going down.. I've found 3 different places in town and 2 out of town I can go to to extend my simplex reach if I want/need too. Thankfully, i'm outside of town. One of my clubs has both a generator and battery backup on the primary repeater, a switchbox a 2nd feedline and 2nd antenna at height, that club also has a backup repeater in a different location that has the same capabilities except the two antennas.. We also know IF one does go down, we know to try the other at the top and bottom of the hour. Every now and then, one of the repeater trustees will shut off the primary or make it malfunction, just to see how many spaz out and dont check the secondary... The 2nd smaller club has a backup gen and batts. It has a backup repeater, but its purposely kept offline, just incase the 1st one gets fried, it'd have to be manually swapped as would its antenna. The smaller club is installs of adding a gmrs repeater for the less radio friendly guys.. Its obviously won't reach as far, but has its uses... Most of the guys in both clubs can reach all 3 repeaters as well as a few more to the north and to the west of us... |
LARUEMINATI
NRA Endowment Life Member
Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:
""AKs are for villagers you have to tell not to shit in their water supply.""
NRA Endowment Life Member
Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:
""AKs are for villagers you have to tell not to shit in their water supply.""
Joined:
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Posts:
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EE: 100% (7)
USA
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I know what you have is evidently not HAM, but the guys in the HAM forum here are absolutely awesome, and they tend to know freaking everything. If you don't get the answers you need here in this forum, do try there. There are likely some folks here who know a lot, but may not have good answers for your exact questions. Some who do may not be online all the time, etc. Don't give up. I have asked very few questions in the years I've been here, that have not had good answers once the right people see the question. I would love to know what you find out. I can't recall this ever getting asked here in Homestead before, and it's a great question. ~Kitties |
Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei
Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei
Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe
Born with a low tolerance for bullshit
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@Sierra5 Any chance you can help with this question? It's not HAM but related I think. 
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Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei
Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei
Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe
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If you have a commercial radio license for your farm, not GMRS, you can legally use encryption. You need digital capable radios that will do encryption and it helps if they are all the same radio because different radios may have different encryption capabilities. . It isn't trivial to do so you will need to learn or find someone that knows how. I do not know how. But it is both doable and legal. You could set up in a tall tree, on a hill or a tower, or top of a building a repeater that uses one of your assigned frequencies that other farmers in your area could use to contact you. With a commercial license, you can allow anybody you choose to use your frequencies, even only one. The other farmers could do the same, allow you to use one of their frequencies and they put up a repeater on a high spot. The only issue between farms is line of sight, which generally equates to height to get above the curvature of the terrain is flat.. Repeaters can be set up for several thousands of dollars or they can be set up cheap using a simplex repeater. Instead of 2 frequencies, 1 into and 1 out of the repeater, a simplex repeater just uses a single radio and single radio frequency that records a length of transmission it hears then immediately repeats in back. It is a little more awkward to use since you have to wait, but you can still communicate through it. It can be done as cheap as 1 radio, the proper cable and a $50 repeater device. And you can also use encryption. It depends on how far away the farms are, what the terrain is like, and how high you can get an antenna. |
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Originally Posted By Mach: If you have a commercial radio license for your farm, not GMRS, you can legally use encryption. You need digital capable radios that will do encryption Nope Analog encryption has been around for a very long time. I've got a Saber II that's military surplus (136.8-151) from the 80s with a DES XL board. If OP has his own business license (and isn't using the radio shop's repeater and license), it will list the emissions type that is permitted. If it's his license, He would be licensed for narrowband by now, but possibly still analog. As for triangulating a signal, that's simple with a home built antenna and any radio that will receive the frequency. Of course the longer you talk, the better chance someone can find you. But you have to be someone worth looking for, and the odds of that are not particularly high. If the shit hit the fan, people would be searching by other more obvious means, smoke, sound, noise, light output at night. |
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Originally Posted By ELittlefield: What would it take to make my radios talk to neighboring farms' radios? You would have to have their information such as... If analog Frequency (if a simplex setup) and tone Repeater output frequency Repeater input frequency (if a repeater) Output tone (this filters out other signals except what you want to hear, not 100% needed, but it will be better to have) Input tone (if they are using tone coded squelch, you would absolutely need this when you were transmitting or they won't hear you) If digital..... The above information, but it's a little more complex as far as how a system can be set up. Assuming it's something like a DMR business style digital system and not something like p25. Of course if they are running encryption, you would need their key. If they are licensed for 10 radios and they are using 10 radios, well the FCC would say they can't have any more radios on the system. But let's be realistic about who actually knows about such things. It's not like they're going to businesses and doing an audit. |
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Originally Posted By DavidY: You would have to have their information such as... If analog Frequency (if a simplex setup) and tone Repeater output frequency Repeater input frequency (if a repeater) Output tone (this filters out other signals except what you want to hear, not 100% needed, but it will be better to have) Input tone (if they are using tone coded squelch, you would absolutely need this when you were transmitting or they won't hear you) If digital..... The above information, but it's a little more complex as far as how a system can be set up. Assuming it's something like a DMR business style digital system and not something like p25. Of course if they are running encryption, you would need their key. If they are licensed for 10 radios and they are using 10 radios, well the FCC would say they can't have any more radios on the system. But let's be realistic about who actually knows about such things. It's not like they're going to businesses and doing an audit. Originally Posted By DavidY: Originally Posted By ELittlefield: What would it take to make my radios talk to neighboring farms' radios? You would have to have their information such as... If analog Frequency (if a simplex setup) and tone Repeater output frequency Repeater input frequency (if a repeater) Output tone (this filters out other signals except what you want to hear, not 100% needed, but it will be better to have) Input tone (if they are using tone coded squelch, you would absolutely need this when you were transmitting or they won't hear you) If digital..... The above information, but it's a little more complex as far as how a system can be set up. Assuming it's something like a DMR business style digital system and not something like p25. Of course if they are running encryption, you would need their key. If they are licensed for 10 radios and they are using 10 radios, well the FCC would say they can't have any more radios on the system. But let's be realistic about who actually knows about such things. It's not like they're going to businesses and doing an audit. Thank you for the information. |
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Originally Posted By ELittlefield: Just a self bump in order to prevent the archives, for my own reference. Thanks again to everyone who has replied. Still interested in this thread. Thank you for keeping it going! |
Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei
Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei
Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe
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Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: Still interested in this thread. Thank you for keeping it going! Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: Originally Posted By ELittlefield: Just a self bump in order to prevent the archives, for my own reference. Thanks again to everyone who has replied. Still interested in this thread. Thank you for keeping it going! I was scrolling through my subscriptions and thought this looked familiar  Also interested in how things worked out. |
Froot Loops are all the same flavor. They just taste like froot. Whatever the heck that is.