Posted: 12/24/2025 1:17:31 AM EDT
| What is a great hunting bullet. I want to get my daughter shooting 140s maybe 150s for mule deer I think. What is a good bullet that you guys like. Still deciding between 308 and 7-08,Im going to let the bullets decide. |
I aint doin nothing,but doing nothing means a lot to me.
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Barnes TTSX, 130/150 for .308, 120/140 for 7mm. All I’ve used on deer for 20 years now, I have to be close to 100 deer with either the 110/130/150/165 grain Barnes bullets. I started with the old 165 X bullet and went lighter, finally settled on the 130’s. The few I’ve recovered look like an advertisement for the bullet. Lots of great bullets out there now. |
"The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there."
L.P. Hartley
L.P. Hartley
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Originally Posted By StanleySpidowski: What is a great hunting bullet. I want to get my daughter shooting 140s maybe 150s for mule deer I think. What is a good bullet that you guys like. Still deciding between 308 and 7-08,Im going to let the bullets decide. The 150 grain Hammer Hunters and the 130 Barnes TTSX are absolute killers in 308 |
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Originally Posted By PortaJohnPicasso: How far and at what? 22 arc, 6 arc, 6.5 Grendel all kill well out further than I shoot deer with a lot less recoil. Great factory ammo available if you don't reload Hand made rounds and mule deer up to 200lbs inside 400yds |
I aint doin nothing,but doing nothing means a lot to me.
| I've switched over to Nosler accubonds for my hunting bullets, they've performed quite well on elk and deer and have a god BC. |
America is at that awkward stage, it’s too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards....Claire Wolfe
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Originally Posted By StanleySpidowski: Hand made rounds and mule deer up to 200lbs inside 400yds Is buy a Howa mini action in 6 arc from Brownells, jump on a Stocky's blem carbon stock, and go kill whatever I wanted inside 400 with 108s. Or cheaper, Ruger American gen2 in 6 arc The Ruger stock comes with the ability to drop the LOP to 12" which doesn't suck. |
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Speer Gold Dot are great cheap hunting projectiles. They're not the the high speed low drag tipped hotness of the month that gives you 8 inches less drop at 1200 yards...but they're bonded and they put deer down. Out to 400 you won't see massive differences anyway...even on a bullet that costs 3x as much. My kids have been killing white tails here in Wisconsin with these out of a 223 for years now and they perform very well. |
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I've been a big fan of Hornady's SST line in various calibers. After recovering this bullet from a deer (quartering at me), entered at the right shoulder and almost exited the left ham... DRT... I am switching all my hunting loads to the Barnes TTSX. This was a .358 Winchester 180gr TTSX at about 50-60 yards.  I've had great success at the loading bench getting the SST's to shoot good but the Barnes seems to shoot a little better with less load development, at least for me. My brother swears by the Barnes in his 6.8 SPC. Bottom line for me... either the Barnes TTSX or the Hornady SST. |
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I'm late to this thread. sorry. "What's a good bullet?". Thats a broad question, and its so broad you simply cannot get an accurate answer. Its sort of like asking "What's a good vehicle?": If you want an economical commuter car, the answer might be Toyota corrolla. If its pulling your 24 foot boat, its probably a diesel pickup. Both are good, but application and specifics drive the decisions.. Bullets are ENTIRELY dependent on impact velocity and intended game. Over decades of hunting, dozens of deer kills, and a LOT of loading, I've become fully convinced the single most important thing is matching the bullet to the cartridge, range, game, and impact speed.... What's a good bullet: My answer is Nosler Ballistic Tip or Hornady SST 165's. These are perfect in my application. I'm shooting a relatively moderate load, in .308 Win, out of 20" barrel, on whitetails at ranges of muzzle t0 175 yards. MV are running 2600'ish. At these speeds, these two bullets absolutely hammer deer. Drop these same bullets in a 300 Mag of some variety, and fire them at moose, and its a recipe for disaster. Too fast for the bullet, and the bullet construction is too light for the game... If you are shooting moderate 7mm08 or 308 Win at whitetails, those are not super challenging conditions. Virtually any 150 will get it done. Even old school cup-and-core bullets like Rem Corlokt and Win Powerpoint are entirely effective. No need for deep penetrating premium loads. If you are shooting factory ammo, it looks like Federal Fusion is a bit more dramatic than the old school cup and core stuff. In my experience, a squarely hit whitetail drilled with an Interlock/Powerpoint/Corelokt will run if bone is not hit. Double lung them and clip the heart and its a dead deer, but it sometimes takes them 75-100 yards to realize it.... The aforementioned SST/Ballistic Tip are not 'Necessary". However, at 2600-2700 muzzle velocities, these are absolute hammers on whitetails. Hearts are not 'shot". They are liquified. Kills are often near instant, with more "boooomflop" drops. I fully regard cheap vanilla 150 Rem Corlokt or Win Powerpoint to be 100% decent bullets that reliably kill deer when shot out of 308 or 7mm08 or similar. The SST or Ballistic Tips are just a serious (but not actually necessary) upgrade. Im a fan of the Barnes TTSX and Hornady CX bullets. Running a 3000 FPS hot rod rifle? These can work very well! At modest 7m08 and 308 speeds, these are expensive loads/bullets and DONT offer an increase in performance. I actively avoid them in this application. Impact speeds are mild enough these bullets don't open as energetically as softer, cheaper bullets. Deep penetrators idea for 600 lb elk and 1000 lb moose dont actually work all that well on skinny little 165 lb whitetails... If you do opt for these bullets, seriously consider upping the velocities. Instead of 165 or 150 TTSX/CX in 308, you can get much better performance out of the 130 grainers. Faster initial velocities, great impact speeds, greater expansion. These NEED speed to work well. |
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Speer Gold Dot. Fantastic bullet. My kids have been killing deer with them for years now. Not overly tough. Doesn't need ridiculous velocity to work, but won't detonate at high velocity either. On top of all that, it's cheap. They're not going to be the best high BC super long range bullet, but lets be honest, 99% of people shouldn't be shooting animals at those ranges anyway. |
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Originally Posted By frozenny: I'm late to this thread. sorry. "What's a good bullet?". Thats a broad question, and its so broad you simply cannot get an accurate answer. Its sort of like asking "What's a good vehicle?": If you want an economical commuter car, the answer might be Toyota corrolla. If its pulling your 24 foot boat, its probably a diesel pickup. Both are good, but application and specifics drive the decisions.. Bullets are ENTIRELY dependent on impact velocity and intended game. Over decades of hunting, dozens of deer kills, and a LOT of loading, I've become fully convinced the single most important thing is matching the bullet to the cartridge, range, game, and impact speed.... What's a good bullet: My answer is Nosler Ballistic Tip or Hornady SST 165's. These are perfect in my application. I'm shooting a relatively moderate load, in .308 Win, out of 20" barrel, on whitetails at ranges of muzzle t0 175 yards. MV are running 2600'ish. At these speeds, these two bullets absolutely hammer deer. Drop these same bullets in a 300 Mag of some variety, and fire them at moose, and its a recipe for disaster. Too fast for the bullet, and the bullet construction is too light for the game... If you are shooting moderate 7mm08 or 308 Win at whitetails, those are not super challenging conditions. Virtually any 150 will get it done. Even old school cup-and-core bullets like Rem Corlokt and Win Powerpoint are entirely effective. No need for deep penetrating premium loads. If you are shooting factory ammo, it looks like Federal Fusion is a bit more dramatic than the old school cup and core stuff. In my experience, a squarely hit whitetail drilled with an Interlock/Powerpoint/Corelokt will run if bone is not hit. Double lung them and clip the heart and its a dead deer, but it sometimes takes them 75-100 yards to realize it.... The aforementioned SST/Ballistic Tip are not 'Necessary". However, at 2600-2700 muzzle velocities, these are absolute hammers on whitetails. Hearts are not 'shot". They are liquified. Kills are often near instant, with more "boooomflop" drops. I fully regard cheap vanilla 150 Rem Corlokt or Win Powerpoint to be 100% decent bullets that reliably kill deer when shot out of 308 or 7mm08 or similar. The SST or Ballistic Tips are just a serious (but not actually necessary) upgrade. Im a fan of the Barnes TTSX and Hornady CX bullets. Running a 3000 FPS hot rod rifle? These can work very well! At modest 7m08 and 308 speeds, these are expensive loads/bullets and DONT offer an increase in performance. I actively avoid them in this application. Impact speeds are mild enough these bullets don't open as energetically as softer, cheaper bullets. Deep penetrators idea for 600 lb elk and 1000 lb moose dont actually work all that well on skinny little 165 lb whitetails... If you do opt for these bullets, seriously consider upping the velocities. Instead of 165 or 150 TTSX/CX in 308, you can get much better performance out of the 130 grainers. Faster initial velocities, great impact speeds, greater expansion. These NEED speed to work well. 7-08 inside 400 for big mule deer.Probably 25/2600 at the muzzle. |
I aint doin nothing,but doing nothing means a lot to me.
| In 308 its pretty hard to beat a 130gr ttsx at 2900fps. Mild recoil, accurate and insanely effective. My buddy is a guide in big bear country and swears by them. For me, I have only used them on deer and black bear but have never had to trail one and have yet to recover a bullet The doe I shot last year was 527 yards and she dropped where she stood, broke both shoulders and exited. The buck I killed was 260# live weight and the shot was only 225 (ish) feet. He was uphill, the bullet went in behind the shoulder, went up and blew his spine into little pieces. Great performance |
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7-08, on big mule deer, at 0-400..... 2500-2600 fps.... Okay, lets start with impact velocity. Push a Hornady CX 139 to 2550, the middle of that speed range. At 300 yards the bullet impacts at 1990. That's close enough to 2000 to work well. But at 400 the impact velocity is very low 1800 fps. Houston , we have a problem..... The CX and the similar TTSX are both VERY good bullets. Very good. But they like and need speed. And at 1800 fps, they will open a little bit, but expansion will be very minor. Resulting wounding will be a very deep, very narrow wound channel that I think is unacceptable. We need more speed if we want to use these bullets.... We can go faster or use a softer bullet. Go faster: Drop bullet weights to 120's. Now you can drive a TTSX or CX to a couple hundred feet faster. Impact speeds are faster at 400 and 500, so bullet expansion and wounding are good. This is one excellent option Softer bullet: I took this approach. I used Nosler ballistic tips, .30 165's in a short 308. Its devastating on big north whitetails. Really like this bullet. But mule deer are bigger. And your ranges are a bit longer. I'd like a little more bullet than the Ballistic Tip or similar SST. The Ballistic tips would be idea if all your shots were 300-400 yards. get opportunity on a big mule at 38 yards and the BT might be too energetic.... I've got two choices. One is old school, but its going to be Nosler Partition. There are a lot of newer bullets that hold together very well. However, I find a lot of them to be 'velocity dependent'. Of all the "premium bullets", the Partitions have one advantage: they seem to have the widest available 'sweet spot' for expansion. The Partitions will expand very well at lower speeds than other premiums, but when impacts are close (speeds high), the Partition will still drive the rear core all the way thru. Its a rare compromise that works.... The other choice is go new. Instead of softer bullet, we can try to find a way to conserve velocity. Use a super efficient bullet that doesnt lose speed. ELD-x. The idea here is to take the speed we have, and hold it as long as possible. ELD-x is the ticket in this category. If the 7-08 is my choice in this application, I think its good too select a rifle with a slightly longer barrel. a nice handy 22" will give you roughly 100 fps more muzzle speed than a shortie 18"... The longer barrel is more likely to give you the full 2600 instead of 2500, and it does matter. It will make NO difference at ranges to 200 yards, but it WILL matter at that longer 418 yard shot on a gorgeous 4x4.... 7-08 is an EXCELLENT chambering btw. I'd load three loads 1) 140 Partition (this is your soft and forgiving bullet option) 2) ELDx (High BC, lets keep the velocity we have option) 3) 120 Cx or TTSX to fastest speed possible (note, 120 grain. Lets drop the weight to increase speed right at the muzzle) Fire all three, use what the rifle likes best. |
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Originally Posted By frozenny: I'm late to this thread. sorry. "What's a good bullet?". Thats a broad question, and its so broad you simply cannot get an accurate answer. Its sort of like asking "What's a good vehicle?": If you want an economical commuter car, the answer might be Toyota corrolla. If its pulling your 24 foot boat, its probably a diesel pickup. Both are good, but application and specifics drive the decisions.. Bullets are ENTIRELY dependent on impact velocity and intended game. Over decades of hunting, dozens of deer kills, and a LOT of loading, I've become fully convinced the single most important thing is matching the bullet to the cartridge, range, game, and impact speed.... What's a good bullet: My answer is Nosler Ballistic Tip or Hornady SST 165's. These are perfect in my application. I'm shooting a relatively moderate load, in .308 Win, out of 20" barrel, on whitetails at ranges of muzzle t0 175 yards. MV are running 2600'ish. At these speeds, these two bullets absolutely hammer deer. Drop these same bullets in a 300 Mag of some variety, and fire them at moose, and its a recipe for disaster. Too fast for the bullet, and the bullet construction is too light for the game... If you are shooting moderate 7mm08 or 308 Win at whitetails, those are not super challenging conditions. Virtually any 150 will get it done. Even old school cup-and-core bullets like Rem Corlokt and Win Powerpoint are entirely effective. No need for deep penetrating premium loads. If you are shooting factory ammo, it looks like Federal Fusion is a bit more dramatic than the old school cup and core stuff. In my experience, a squarely hit whitetail drilled with an Interlock/Powerpoint/Corelokt will run if bone is not hit. Double lung them and clip the heart and its a dead deer, but it sometimes takes them 75-100 yards to realize it.... The aforementioned SST/Ballistic Tip are not 'Necessary". However, at 2600-2700 muzzle velocities, these are absolute hammers on whitetails. Hearts are not 'shot". They are liquified. Kills are often near instant, with more "boooomflop" drops. I fully regard cheap vanilla 150 Rem Corlokt or Win Powerpoint to be 100% decent bullets that reliably kill deer when shot out of 308 or 7mm08 or similar. The SST or Ballistic Tips are just a serious (but not actually necessary) upgrade. Im a fan of the Barnes TTSX and Hornady CX bullets. Running a 3000 FPS hot rod rifle? These can work very well! At modest 7m08 and 308 speeds, these are expensive loads/bullets and DONT offer an increase in performance. I actively avoid them in this application. Impact speeds are mild enough these bullets don't open as energetically as softer, cheaper bullets. Deep penetrators idea for 600 lb elk and 1000 lb moose dont actually work all that well on skinny little 165 lb whitetails... If you do opt for these bullets, seriously consider upping the velocities. Instead of 165 or 150 TTSX/CX in 308, you can get much better performance out of the 130 grainers. Faster initial velocities, great impact speeds, greater expansion. These NEED speed to work well. Agreed, the only thing I would add was also mentioned by another response, IF You do want to try a copper bullet then I strongly suggest moving down in weight to increase the speed to ensure they open up. Ie don’t swap your 150 grain .308 corelokt for a 150 grain copper. It will likely end up too slow and act like a FMJ. But +1 Nothing really wrong with a Corelokt or Power point on your average whitetail. They’re not armored. I well aimed and chosen shot will do the job. I wouldn’t try a texas heart shot with a corelokt but I wouldn’t shoot the hind quarters anyhow, I’d let the animal walk and have done so. |
The only hyphenated names I like are cartridge names......30-06, 30-40, 38-55 etc.
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Originally Posted By frozenny: 7-08, on big mule deer, at 0-400..... 2500-2600 fps.... Okay, lets start with impact velocity. Push a Hornady CX 139 to 2550, the middle of that speed range. At 300 yards the bullet impacts at 1990. That's close enough to 2000 to work well. But at 400 the impact velocity is very low 1800 fps. Houston , we have a problem..... The CX and the similar TTSX are both VERY good bullets. Very good. But they like and need speed. And at 1800 fps, they will open a little bit, but expansion will be very minor. Resulting wounding will be a very deep, very narrow wound channel that I think is unacceptable. We need more speed if we want to use these bullets.... We can go faster or use a softer bullet. Go faster: Drop bullet weights to 120's. Now you can drive a TTSX or CX to a couple hundred feet faster. Impact speeds are faster at 400 and 500, so bullet expansion and wounding are good. This is one excellent option Softer bullet: I took this approach. I used Nosler ballistic tips, .30 165's in a short 308. Its devastating on big north whitetails. Really like this bullet. But mule deer are bigger. And your ranges are a bit longer. I'd like a little more bullet than the Ballistic Tip or similar SST. The Ballistic tips would be idea if all your shots were 300-400 yards. get opportunity on a big mule at 38 yards and the BT might be too energetic.... I've got two choices. One is old school, but its going to be Nosler Partition. There are a lot of newer bullets that hold together very well. However, I find a lot of them to be 'velocity dependent'. Of all the "premium bullets", the Partitions have one advantage: they seem to have the widest available 'sweet spot' for expansion. The Partitions will expand very well at lower speeds than other premiums, but when impacts are close (speeds high), the Partition will still drive the rear core all the way thru. Its a rare compromise that works.... The other choice is go new. Instead of softer bullet, we can try to find a way to conserve velocity. Use a super efficient bullet that doesnt lose speed. ELD-x. The idea here is to take the speed we have, and hold it as long as possible. ELD-x is the ticket in this category. If the 7-08 is my choice in this application, I think its good too select a rifle with a slightly longer barrel. a nice handy 22" will give you roughly 100 fps more muzzle speed than a shortie 18"... The longer barrel is more likely to give you the full 2600 instead of 2500, and it does matter. It will make NO difference at ranges to 200 yards, but it WILL matter at that longer 418 yard shot on a gorgeous 4x4.... 7-08 is an EXCELLENT chambering btw. I'd load three loads 1) 140 Partition (this is your soft and forgiving bullet option) 2) ELDx (High BC, lets keep the velocity we have option) 3) 120 Cx or TTSX to fastest speed possible (note, 120 grain. Lets drop the weight to increase speed right at the muzzle) Fire all three, use what the rifle likes best. Thanks. The bullets on my list were: SGK 1905s which I have on hand Nosler partitions Fed fusion 140s Barnes 120s Speer SPBT 130s Any feed back on these options? Again thanks for taking the time for the explanation. How do you find out the bullet performance on the intended target at the intended range for researching?Ive used core lokt since I started hunting and they always perform,Ive terminated mule deer at 100yds,170yds,60yds,and 255yds with my 7mm 24". The core lokt tipped DID NOT work out for us this year,95gr tipped out of a 18" .243@50 yds which is why we are setting up the 08.Id love some thoughts on that one,the blood trail just stopped after a couple hundred yards. Thanks. The bullets on my list were: SGK 1905s which I have on hand Nosler partitions Fed fusion 140s Barnes 120s Speer SPBT 130s Any feed back on these options? Again thanks for taking the time for the explanation. How do you find out the bullet performance on the intended target at the intended range for researching?Ive used core lokt since I started hunting and they always perform,Ive terminated mule deer at 100yds,170yds,60yds,and 255yds with my 7mm 24". The core lokt tipped DID NOT work out for us this year,95gr tipped out of a 18" .243@50 yds which is why we are setting up the 08.Id love some thoughts on that one,the blood trail just stopped after a couple hundred yards. Not really sold on ballistic tips or coppers,the core lokt tipped shot is quite a mystery to me. Any insight there?ETA I dont know what happened with my quote so I reposted my response. down here |
I aint doin nothing,but doing nothing means a lot to me.
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Originally Posted By StanleySpidowski: Thanks. The bullets on my list were: SGK 1905s which I have on hand Nosler partitions Fed fusion 140s Barnes 120s Speer SPBT 130s Any feed back on these options? Again thanks for taking the time for the explanation. How do you find out the bullet performance on the intended target at the intended range for researching?Ive used core lokt since I started hunting and they always perform,Ive terminated mule deer at 100yds,170yds,60yds,and 255yds with my 7mm 24". The core lokt tipped DID NOT work out for us this year,95gr tipped out of a 18" .243@50 yds which is why we are setting up the 08.Id love some thoughts on that one,the blood trail just stopped after a couple hundred yards. Not really sold on ballistic tips or coppers,the core lokt tipped shot is quite a mystery to me. Any insight there?ETA I dont know what happened with my quote so I reposted my response. down here My experience has shown that 243 (and other small diameter high velocity rounds) at close range with standard cup and core bullets is a recipe for disaster. Sometimes they drop in their tracks...sometimes they run never to be found again. I've been on quite a few terrible blood trails from this exact situation. The ones we have found were mostly found because a fragment either hit the heart or made it into the second lung. I think a lot of the ones we don't find are single lung hits due to the bullet fragmenting quickly on impact and not getting enough penetration. Now that I have convinced them to switch to bonded bullets out of their 243's we don't have this issue. Fed Fusions are Speer Gold Dot projectile and will perform admirably in a range of impact velocity. This is what most of our guys who shoot the 243 have switched to. Others choose monolithic style bullets will also perform well out of the 243's. They like high impact velocities. However, the 7-08 is a VERY different animal to the 243 and can reliably kill with cup and core bullets. So that same Core Lokt Tipped projectile would likely perform quite well out of a more moderate velocity round like the 7-08. |
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Two topics in this reply: Bullets for the 7mm08. And why did the 243 fail.. 7mm-08: I have just started loading Sierra's TGK in my 6.5 Creeds. No actual shooting data other than speed and accuracy so far. I'm liking cost and accuracy, but haven't dissected any killed deer so far. I'm shooting these at a maximum of 2800 fps. I wouldn't dream of driving them faster. We will see if my assumptions are correct when I connect on a few deer. Sierra isn't a line I've got a lot of experience with. However, the 1905 might be an excellent choice. Its likely a lot softer than a TTSX or CX, fairy streamlined to hold velocity. Likely tougher than a Ballistic Tip or SST and you aren't running it at 3000 or 3200 fps out of a 7 PRC. I've got no direct experience with this, but I THINK it would be a very solid choice. I would anticipate it being somewhat harder and deeper penetrating than the TGK, BT or SST type bullets. I've already mentioned the Partitions. I hate how they are priced, but the Partition is (In my opinion) the one bullet with the widest, do-everything-under -all-conditions bullet on the market. Drive it fast and hit something big up close. The front just detonates after penetration, the rear just keeps on sailing thru. Shoot something far. Speeds are low. Doesnt matter, it still expands. There are limits, but the "window" within which the Partition works is the widest on the market. Limitations are $$$, modest accuracy, and kinda crappy ballistic coefficient. Fed Fusions. Not anything I have experience with. Reputation across most calibers is it works well. Similar to Gold Dots, which is not surprising because both are plated bullets. No jacket/core separation. BC's kinda suck. The 243 Remington Failure. There is only two Remington bullets I like. If you want the best bullet on the market for your .35 Rem, Remingtons old 200 grain round nosed bullet with the scalloped jacket is number 1. Hands down. And if you want to load 357 in a carbine for deer, Remington's 158 grain jacket SOFT point (again, with that scalloped jacket and a lot of exposed lead) over a load of LilGun will leave at 1900+ fps and works very well out to about 135 yards. When you think about it, these are similar sort of loads... Big, round, slow, at modest ranges. In everything else I avoid Remington like I avoid contracting Herpes.... Remington's quality assurance is non existent. As is their actual research and development. "Hmmm, every one is sticking a plastic tip on their bullets, we should too". And they cosmetically play "Me Too!!!" without the development needed to make it reliable. And if they do the development, the accounting department nickels and dimes production to the point of insanity. I've got a BUNCH of Remington factory ammo stories that prove just how shitty Rem has become. I refuse to use their products. Amongst others, how about a box of factory Rem Corlokt 180s with six rounds in the box so danged over pressure the case heads are swaged into the bolt face, and every machine mark on the bolt is now mirror-image pressure swaged into the case head? Flat primers? These were THE worst I've ever seen. I've got other stories too... Grab a bag of Remington new never fired brass. You pick the caliber. I've done it with .223. The range pick up surplus M193 clone Guatemalan or Malaysian 5.56 from 1990 has better case to case consistency than Rem. Not kidding. I will not use Rem ammo. Period. In the .243, even a 18", the 95 grainer can move along at a pretty good clip. Remington rates their Tipped Corlokt load at 3140 fs. Lets knock 100 fps off of that to account for marketing hype and short barrel. That 95 grainer could reasonably be leaving the barrel at 3000-3040 fps. If impact was at 500 yards, the speed has dropped into the sweet spot for most bullets like the Ballistic Tip, the SST, and I'll assume the Rem Tipped. However, at shorter ranges, the impact speeds are still high. Too high. You got 1/2" of penetration , dramatic over expansion, complete bullet fragmentation, poor overall penetration and no exit. And lost the animal.... This is sort of common with stuff like the BT, SST and others when driven FAST. The original Ballistic Tip got a bad reputation, mostly I think because people bought it in 300 Mag, and got results like you did. I love (absolutely LOVE) the Ballistic Tip. And the SST. But I shoot them at 2500-2600 muzzle fps. On impact, speeds are mild enough that these open hard, absolutely destroy internals, yet still get deep enough to give me an exit. I get a cantaloupe sized mass of tissue, between about 4 and 12 inches, that is liquified. Its gone. Meat soup. If I speed them up, all bets are off. These work wonderfully at 2600 in a short 308. I've got a recoil sensitive step-son. I gave him a 30-06, but wanted a lower recoil load. So I down loaded 165 SST to 2550 and he's taken three deer so far: The bullet absolutely hammered them. Take any of these tipped bullets (BT, SST or the Rem. I assume Sierras TGK will be similar) and drive it to 3000 and its a disaster waiting to happen. If all your shots are 300, 350+ yards they will work wonderfully. Use it at under 100 and expect unreliable performance. I think we are too fast, we're outside the ideal impact velocity window. If I wanted to hunt coyote and didn't care about pelt damage, I'd use the 243 and a tipped bullet alll day long. Heck, I bet they would be VERY entertaining on woodchucks too. 243? Deer? Thats generally a 3000 fps+++ combination and that needs a TOUGH bullet and a tipped bullet isn't tough. (I'm leaved tipped bonded as a different kind of bullet. Bonding in Noslers Accubond or Hornady's older Interbond is different) I load 280 Ackley with 160 Nosler Partitions. measured and tested MV is an average of 3003 fps out of my gun. There's no way I'm loading a Ballistic tip, SST or any other tipped bullet in that gun. Speeds are too high. End of story. And my 280 3000 fps and your 243 3000 fps are, well, the same speed. Too damned fast for a BT, SST or other tipped bullet. Back to your 1905. My impression of the Sierra Game King is that there is a somewhat tougher jacket than the regular vanilla cup and core. It should hold together well at shorter distances. I'd speculate on mild expansion at 400 yards out of a 7mm08, but would still expect it to open much better than a TTSX or CX at the same velocity and range. I simply dont have enough experience to truly tell, but I'd happily load that in 7-08, drive it to 2600 and call it good. You might be in the sort of happy compromise here, a little harder than the BT/SST but softer than the CX/TTSX. The ideal bullet will withstand 3200 fps impacts and not blow up, yet still expand and penetrate deeply at 1700 fps on that 600 yard shot. Its got a BC of .700, its laser accurate, and its available for $14/ box of 100. And this bullet doesnt exist. Every bullet on the market is a compromise. If its tough enough to really hold up under high impact speeds, its going to be harder to expand at long ranges and low impact speeds. They are all compromises... My bullet selection criteria is different. I look at cartridge, barrel length and loads, and extrapolate a reasonable expected MV. Then I anticipate impact range and the resulting impact speed. Given the game Im hunting, what bullet will open and penetrate best at that impact speed. Nothing else matters. If you limit shots to 300 yards, you've narrowed the range of impact speeds. Its easier to find a bullet that works. As ranges get longer, the difference between Muzzle speed and Impact speeds get farther and farther apart, and bullet selection gets tougher. I can speed up MV with longer barrels, hotter loads, lighter bullets, or more powder capacity. I can try to retain what speed I have with higher BC's. But it all boils down to "the bullet struck my mule deer at 2,318 fps. Is that within this bullets design and manufactured velocity 'sweet spot'? " Thats all I got... I use BT and SST when MV are mild. I use Partitions when I get faster than 2800. works for me. |
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Originally Posted By frozenny: Two topics in this reply: Bullets for the 7mm08. And why did the 243 fail.. 7mm-08: I have just started loading Sierra's TGK in my 6.5 Creeds. No actual shooting data other than speed and accuracy so far. I'm liking cost and accuracy, but haven't dissected any killed deer so far. I'm shooting these at a maximum of 2800 fps. I wouldn't dream of driving them faster. We will see if my assumptions are correct when I connect on a few deer. Sierra isn't a line I've got a lot of experience with. However, the 1905 might be an excellent choice. Its likely a lot softer than a TTSX or CX, fairy streamlined to hold velocity. Likely tougher than a Ballistic Tip or SST and you aren't running it at 3000 or 3200 fps out of a 7 PRC. I've got no direct experience with this, but I THINK it would be a very solid choice. I would anticipate it being somewhat harder and deeper penetrating than the TGK, BT or SST type bullets. I've already mentioned the Partitions. I hate how they are priced, but the Partition is (In my opinion) the one bullet with the widest, do-everything-under -all-conditions bullet on the market. Drive it fast and hit something big up close. The front just detonates after penetration, the rear just keeps on sailing thru. Shoot something far. Speeds are low. Doesnt matter, it still expands. There are limits, but the "window" within which the Partition works is the widest on the market. Limitations are $$$, modest accuracy, and kinda crappy ballistic coefficient. Fed Fusions. Not anything I have experience with. Reputation across most calibers is it works well. Similar to Gold Dots, which is not surprising because both are plated bullets. No jacket/core separation. BC's kinda suck. The 243 Remington Failure. There is only two Remington bullets I like. If you want the best bullet on the market for your .35 Rem, Remingtons old 200 grain round nosed bullet with the scalloped jacket is number 1. Hands down. And if you want to load 357 in a carbine for deer, Remington's 158 grain jacket SOFT point (again, with that scalloped jacket and a lot of exposed lead) over a load of LilGun will leave at 1900+ fps and works very well out to about 135 yards. When you think about it, these are similar sort of loads... Big, round, slow, at modest ranges. In everything else I avoid Remington like I avoid contracting Herpes.... Remington's quality assurance is non existent. As is their actual research and development. "Hmmm, every one is sticking a plastic tip on their bullets, we should too". And they cosmetically play "Me Too!!!" without the development needed to make it reliable. And if they do the development, the accounting department nickels and dimes production to the point of insanity. I've got a BUNCH of Remington factory ammo stories that prove just how shitty Rem has become. I refuse to use their products. Amongst others, how about a box of factory Rem Corlokt 180s with six rounds in the box so danged over pressure the case heads are swaged into the bolt face, and every machine mark on the bolt is now mirror-image pressure swaged into the case head? Flat primers? These were THE worst I've ever seen. I've got other stories too... Grab a bag of Remington new never fired brass. You pick the caliber. I've done it with .223. The range pick up surplus M193 clone Guatemalan or Malaysian 5.56 from 1990 has better case to case consistency than Rem. Not kidding. I will not use Rem ammo. Period. In the .243, even a 18", the 95 grainer can move along at a pretty good clip. Remington rates their Tipped Corlokt load at 3140 fs. Lets knock 100 fps off of that to account for marketing hype and short barrel. That 95 grainer could reasonably be leaving the barrel at 3000-3040 fps. If impact was at 500 yards, the speed has dropped into the sweet spot for most bullets like the Ballistic Tip, the SST, and I'll assume the Rem Tipped. However, at shorter ranges, the impact speeds are still high. Too high. You got 1/2" of penetration , dramatic over expansion, complete bullet fragmentation, poor overall penetration and no exit. And lost the animal.... This is sort of common with stuff like the BT, SST and others when driven FAST. The original Ballistic Tip got a bad reputation, mostly I think because people bought it in 300 Mag, and got results like you did. I love (absolutely LOVE) the Ballistic Tip. And the SST. But I shoot them at 2500-2600 muzzle fps. On impact, speeds are mild enough that these open hard, absolutely destroy internals, yet still get deep enough to give me an exit. I get a cantaloupe sized mass of tissue, between about 4 and 12 inches, that is liquified. Its gone. Meat soup. If I speed them up, all bets are off. These work wonderfully at 2600 in a short 308. I've got a recoil sensitive step-son. I gave him a 30-06, but wanted a lower recoil load. So I down loaded 165 SST to 2550 and he's taken three deer so far: The bullet absolutely hammered them. Take any of these tipped bullets (BT, SST or the Rem. I assume Sierras TGK will be similar) and drive it to 3000 and its a disaster waiting to happen. If all your shots are 300, 350+ yards they will work wonderfully. Use it at under 100 and expect unreliable performance. I think we are too fast, we're outside the ideal impact velocity window. If I wanted to hunt coyote and didn't care about pelt damage, I'd use the 243 and a tipped bullet alll day long. Heck, I bet they would be VERY entertaining on woodchucks too. 243? Deer? Thats generally a 3000 fps+++ combination and that needs a TOUGH bullet and a tipped bullet isn't tough. (I'm leaved tipped bonded as a different kind of bullet. Bonding in Noslers Accubond or Hornady's older Interbond is different) I load 280 Ackley with 160 Nosler Partitions. measured and tested MV is an average of 3003 fps out of my gun. There's no way I'm loading a Ballistic tip, SST or any other tipped bullet in that gun. Speeds are too high. End of story. And my 280 3000 fps and your 243 3000 fps are, well, the same speed. Too damned fast for a BT, SST or other tipped bullet. Back to your 1905. My impression of the Sierra Game King is that there is a somewhat tougher jacket than the regular vanilla cup and core. It should hold together well at shorter distances. I'd speculate on mild expansion at 400 yards out of a 7mm08, but would still expect it to open much better than a TTSX or CX at the same velocity and range. I simply dont have enough experience to truly tell, but I'd happily load that in 7-08, drive it to 2600 and call it good. You might be in the sort of happy compromise here, a little harder than the BT/SST but softer than the CX/TTSX. The ideal bullet will withstand 3200 fps impacts and not blow up, yet still expand and penetrate deeply at 1700 fps on that 600 yard shot. Its got a BC of .700, its laser accurate, and its available for $14/ box of 100. And this bullet doesnt exist. Every bullet on the market is a compromise. If its tough enough to really hold up under high impact speeds, its going to be harder to expand at long ranges and low impact speeds. They are all compromises... My bullet selection criteria is different. I look at cartridge, barrel length and loads, and extrapolate a reasonable expected MV. Then I anticipate impact range and the resulting impact speed. Given the game Im hunting, what bullet will open and penetrate best at that impact speed. Nothing else matters. If you limit shots to 300 yards, you've narrowed the range of impact speeds. Its easier to find a bullet that works. As ranges get longer, the difference between Muzzle speed and Impact speeds get farther and farther apart, and bullet selection gets tougher. I can speed up MV with longer barrels, hotter loads, lighter bullets, or more powder capacity. I can try to retain what speed I have with higher BC's. But it all boils down to "the bullet struck my mule deer at 2,318 fps. Is that within this bullets design and manufactured velocity 'sweet spot'? " Thats all I got... I use BT and SST when MV are mild. I use Partitions when I get faster than 2800. works for me. Thanks so much for the in-depth response.How do we know what the sweet spot is for each bullet?I definately want the bullet to choose for me. |
I aint doin nothing,but doing nothing means a lot to me.
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You can check manufacturer websight. Some limited info. Check reload guides. And spend a lot of time searching for a reading tests.... A lot can be inferred. When my daughter wanted a rifle, I needed low recoil but acceptable performance. I could easily have just bought a 7.62x39, but wanted "more". I used that as a floor. What can offer more, with mild recoil. And not a fan of .243 (because of experiences like yours). I decided on a Rem Seven Youth, in .260 Rem. Bought a used wood stock, had it cut down further, and made a super-youth, with stock 3/4 shorter than even the youth stock. Now for a load.... Believe it or not, I looked at handgun hunting data. The Tompson Contender crowd did a lot of handgun hunting for deer. the 6.5 JDJ was, at the time, widely regarded as a VERY good handgun hunting cartridge. One of the better options then was Noslers 120 Ballistic Tip to about 2500 fps. IIRC. The bullet doesnt care which cartridge its loaded in. A 6.5 120 at 2500 is a 6.5 120 at 2500. While the BT was a mild, easy to expand, "soft" bullet, it works wonderfully in this application. So I mimicked the JDJ load in her little .260. Ta da! Magic.... In your case... What does Hornady/Speer/Sierra/Nosler/Barnes recommend for 7mm TCU? You'll see info. This bullet is too hard to expand at 2400 fps. This one does good at 2500 or more. Gives you a clue as to bullet's sweet spot. Cross reference against 7mm Rem Mag or 7mm PRC. Hmmmm. This bullet is NOT recommended . Too fragile. This one will hold up to MV of 3300 fps. Whoa. Thats a tough bullet. What does this info imply in your 7mm08.... We are kind of using info from different sources to tease out and extrapolate the sweet spot velocity wise. When in doubt, call the tech dept and get info from Hornady/Speer/Sierra etc I've taken a LOT of printed and published info, and then simply killed dozens and dozens and dozens of deer. Trends begin to show up. Example: When I shoot a northern whitetail with my 165 BT, they tend to KaBOOOMflop drop on the spot. When they run, they run 10-15 yards. I've seen that a couple dozen times. On field dressing, there was internal tissue that was GONE. just soup. I switched to 150 Hornady Interlock. The next four deer were all squarely hit, with bullets penetrating the heart. Every flippin' one of those four ran a minimum of 75 yards before dying. Post mortems on the deer showed nice clean holes right though the deer. Excellent shots. Dead deer. But post-impact deer behavior was not what I wanted. Very different expansion and wounding than the BT's. While four is not a large sample size, I can see trends. I've gone back to the Nosler BTs. Partitions: First experience with a Partition was a 7mm 175gr driven at max 7mm Rem Mag speeds into the hip bone ball joint on a 900 lb moose (shot seconds earlier with 30-06 broadside). We found the bullet up in the liver, after about 3.5-4 FEET of penetration. Wonderful. Impressive. I've drilled a 45 lb coyote with the 160 Nosler out of 280 AI. You could have pushed a tennis ball thru that coyote with little difficulty. Direct observation works.... Read everything you can from bullet makers.... What do they recommend for various applications. Cross reference. If a bullet is recommended in 7-08 but not in 7 rem mag, it implies "ah, softer bullet". If its recommended in the the 7 rem mag but they recommend a lighter, faster bullet in 7-08, it tells you "okay, this might be a harder, deeper penetrator"... Overlay with testing results... I particularly like when I see testing at various ranges/speeds. You'll see trends. There are a LOT of YouTube vids, of people shooting test media at longer ranges. This worked really good at 100 and 200 but started to show weak expansion at 300. Total failure to expand at 400. How do their speeds correlate to yours? Basically, my "knowledge" (which could be complete and utter bullshit) is sort of 40 years of shooting, reading, observed experience, and failures.... sort of cross referencing data and info from a dozen different sources. In truth, it used to be easier. There were fewer choices on the market. Now there are sooooo many choices, its a bit bewildering. Overall, it all gets harder at the fringes.... If you are shooting moderate cartridges (6.5 Creed, 7-08, 308, 270, 30-06, 7x57 etc) all of these use a middle of the road bullet in a middle of the road velocity. A 140 at 2600, a 140 at 2700, a 165 at 2600, a 180 at 2750... This is sort of overall generally "vanilla". Its in the middle of expected values. Almost anything made will work reasonably well. Where the trouble starts is the ends of the bell curve, the unusual stuff. Going to use a 22-250 on deer? Now we got an issue. I've got a tiny little bullet, going a lot faster (3400+) than usual on a game animal that's big for the cartridge. All bets are off. We have to find the toughest bullet available in that application. (that sort of tells you what bullet line is "tough"). Likewise, going to shoot a .30 cal at really slow speeds? (.300 AAC Blackout). Now we got an issue. 2300 fps MV is low. Really low. What will expand at that speed? So a Nosler 125 BT works well, as does a 125 SST? These must be soft bullets.... I'm loading up big heavy 30's for use in a 300 Rem Ultra Mag. Regular cup and cores (which work in the 30-06) aren't holding together. There's a lot of info indicating that 180 Barnes TTSX are working magnificently in this application. Working really well in the 300 PRC too. There's a clue. Tough bullet. Reports indicate that expansion is spotty at 500 yards though, so Nosler came out with an Accubond LR. What's the difference between this and regular Accubond? LR variation expands better at long range (which is tech speak for "softer bullet that will still open when impact speeds have dropped off). You can sort of generally build some information about bullet lines by cross referencing uses and finding the limits: Yeah, this bullet didn't work so well in this application... It begins to define a bullet's limitations. You've already started: Remington's tipped bullshit cost be a deer in .243. Think it was a good hit. Got blood. Didn't kill deer. Bullet failure. Nope, not using that bullet at 3000 fps in a 6mm ever again. Data point that helps inform you as to that bullet's operation at that speed. Go load the partitions or the Sierra 1905s. Shoot a deer. Pay close attention to entrance and exit in the chest cavity. What are you seeing???? Hope it helps... |
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Originally Posted By John-in-austin: I've used Sierra Game Kings for decades now. All calibers perform well. As are their ProHunters. Years ago when the .243 Win seemed to suddenly hit another growth spurt in the 80’s the only bullet that was truly trustworthy in that cartridge at that time was the Nosler Partition. I wish the Hornady Interbonds were still a thing. I have a fair amount left but it had everything I liked without too much fanfare and the price that went with the hoopla. Hornady killed it to shift those sales to their newer more expensive bullets. I am like the only guy that couldn’t get Accubonds to shoot well in a .260 Rem., to the point I called Nosler and asked them if they had any recalls or complaints on them. Nope but they sent me a fresh box from a different lot just in case. Apparently my gun just hated them. Switched to a Sierra GK and it tuned so easily I was done in a couple range trips where I had a lot of time trying to make the Accubonds work in that same rifle. |
The only hyphenated names I like are cartridge names......30-06, 30-40, 38-55 etc.
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Originally Posted By frozenny: You can check manufacturer websight. Some limited info. Check reload guides. And spend a lot of time searching for a reading tests.... A lot can be inferred. When my daughter wanted a rifle, I needed low recoil but acceptable performance. I could easily have just bought a 7.62x39, but wanted "more". I used that as a floor. What can offer more, with mild recoil. And not a fan of .243 (because of experiences like yours). I decided on a Rem Seven Youth, in .260 Rem. Bought a used wood stock, had it cut down further, and made a super-youth, with stock 3/4 shorter than even the youth stock. Now for a load.... Believe it or not, I looked at handgun hunting data. The Tompson Contender crowd did a lot of handgun hunting for deer. the 6.5 JDJ was, at the time, widely regarded as a VERY good handgun hunting cartridge. One of the better options then was Noslers 120 Ballistic Tip to about 2500 fps. IIRC. The bullet doesnt care which cartridge its loaded in. A 6.5 120 at 2500 is a 6.5 120 at 2500. While the BT was a mild, easy to expand, "soft" bullet, it works wonderfully in this application. So I mimicked the JDJ load in her little .260. Ta da! Magic.... In your case... What does Hornady/Speer/Sierra/Nosler/Barnes recommend for 7mm TCU? You'll see info. This bullet is too hard to expand at 2400 fps. This one does good at 2500 or more. Gives you a clue as to bullet's sweet spot. Cross reference against 7mm Rem Mag or 7mm PRC. Hmmmm. This bullet is NOT recommended . Too fragile. This one will hold up to MV of 3300 fps. Whoa. Thats a tough bullet. What does this info imply in your 7mm08.... We are kind of using info from different sources to tease out and extrapolate the sweet spot velocity wise. When in doubt, call the tech dept and get info from Hornady/Speer/Sierra etc I've taken a LOT of printed and published info, and then simply killed dozens and dozens and dozens of deer. Trends begin to show up. Example: When I shoot a northern whitetail with my 165 BT, they tend to KaBOOOMflop drop on the spot. When they run, they run 10-15 yards. I've seen that a couple dozen times. On field dressing, there was internal tissue that was GONE. just soup. I switched to 150 Hornady Interlock. The next four deer were all squarely hit, with bullets penetrating the heart. Every flippin' one of those four ran a minimum of 75 yards before dying. Post mortems on the deer showed nice clean holes right though the deer. Excellent shots. Dead deer. But post-impact deer behavior was not what I wanted. Very different expansion and wounding than the BT's. While four is not a large sample size, I can see trends. I've gone back to the Nosler BTs. Partitions: First experience with a Partition was a 7mm 175gr driven at max 7mm Rem Mag speeds into the hip bone ball joint on a 900 lb moose (shot seconds earlier with 30-06 broadside). We found the bullet up in the liver, after about 3.5-4 FEET of penetration. Wonderful. Impressive. I've drilled a 45 lb coyote with the 160 Nosler out of 280 AI. You could have pushed a tennis ball thru that coyote with little difficulty. Direct observation works.... Read everything you can from bullet makers.... What do they recommend for various applications. Cross reference. If a bullet is recommended in 7-08 but not in 7 rem mag, it implies "ah, softer bullet". If its recommended in the the 7 rem mag but they recommend a lighter, faster bullet in 7-08, it tells you "okay, this might be a harder, deeper penetrator"... Overlay with testing results... I particularly like when I see testing at various ranges/speeds. You'll see trends. There are a LOT of YouTube vids, of people shooting test media at longer ranges. This worked really good at 100 and 200 but started to show weak expansion at 300. Total failure to expand at 400. How do their speeds correlate to yours? Basically, my "knowledge" (which could be complete and utter bullshit) is sort of 40 years of shooting, reading, observed experience, and failures.... sort of cross referencing data and info from a dozen different sources. In truth, it used to be easier. There were fewer choices on the market. Now there are sooooo many choices, its a bit bewildering. Overall, it all gets harder at the fringes.... If you are shooting moderate cartridges (6.5 Creed, 7-08, 308, 270, 30-06, 7x57 etc) all of these use a middle of the road bullet in a middle of the road velocity. A 140 at 2600, a 140 at 2700, a 165 at 2600, a 180 at 2750... This is sort of overall generally "vanilla". Its in the middle of expected values. Almost anything made will work reasonably well. Where the trouble starts is the ends of the bell curve, the unusual stuff. Going to use a 22-250 on deer? Now we got an issue. I've got a tiny little bullet, going a lot faster (3400+) than usual on a game animal that's big for the cartridge. All bets are off. We have to find the toughest bullet available in that application. (that sort of tells you what bullet line is "tough"). Likewise, going to shoot a .30 cal at really slow speeds? (.300 AAC Blackout). Now we got an issue. 2300 fps MV is low. Really low. What will expand at that speed? So a Nosler 125 BT works well, as does a 125 SST? These must be soft bullets.... I'm loading up big heavy 30's for use in a 300 Rem Ultra Mag. Regular cup and cores (which work in the 30-06) aren't holding together. There's a lot of info indicating that 180 Barnes TTSX are working magnificently in this application. Working really well in the 300 PRC too. There's a clue. Tough bullet. Reports indicate that expansion is spotty at 500 yards though, so Nosler came out with an Accubond LR. What's the difference between this and regular Accubond? LR variation expands better at long range (which is tech speak for "softer bullet that will still open when impact speeds have dropped off). You can sort of generally build some information about bullet lines by cross referencing uses and finding the limits: Yeah, this bullet didn't work so well in this application... It begins to define a bullet's limitations. You've already started: Remington's tipped bullshit cost be a deer in .243. Think it was a good hit. Got blood. Didn't kill deer. Bullet failure. Nope, not using that bullet at 3000 fps in a 6mm ever again. Data point that helps inform you as to that bullet's operation at that speed. Go load the partitions or the Sierra 1905s. Shoot a deer. Pay close attention to entrance and exit in the chest cavity. What are you seeing???? Hope it helps... Yes it helps immensely. Thanks again for taking the time to respond again. My daughter did everything you can do to be successful,including putting one on him so the failure is mine and I dont intend to put her in that situation again without taking bullet selection very seriously. Were setting it up here in the next couple weeks.Cant wait to go hunting next year. My 7 Rem Mag sommersaulted a 150/160" muley at 255yds this year. I was only 75yds away from my daughter and tried to signal her over but she didnt see me and I couldnt let him go.ETA I had just walked there to try to find her brass from two days before to range how far her deer was when shot. |
I aint doin nothing,but doing nothing means a lot to me.
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Originally Posted By wvfarrier: In 308 its pretty hard to beat a 130gr ttsx at 2900fps. Mild recoil, accurate and insanely effective. My buddy is a guide in big bear country and swears by them. For me, I have only used them on deer and black bear but have never had to trail one and have yet to recover a bullet The doe I shot last year was 527 yards and she dropped where she stood, broke both shoulders and exited. The buck I killed was 260# live weight and the shot was only 225 (ish) feet. He was uphill, the bullet went in behind the shoulder, went up and blew his spine into little pieces. Great performance I'm pushing that load 3100fps, and it hammers the absolute dog shit out of anything it has crossed. |
Watching the kids shoot Pieeater's 1919 was great. Nothing warms the heart more than seeing a little kid kneeling in a pile of brass and links.-Pthfndr after the Nov 13th NorCal shoot
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Originally Posted By StanleySpidowski: 1 more thing,this gun is going to be custom for my daughter,shes about 5' 115lbs. I want this to be an easy shooting gun for her so she will practice and have fun with it. 6ARC is a great round for kids to shoot and enjoy shooting. It’s low recoil even in a lighter gun that they will enjoy carrying in the field Lower velocity and faster twist for heavier bullets than 243, so you don’t get too much fragmentation and too little penetration. |