Posted: 12/26/2010 4:16:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: SCW][Edited]
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I've got some stored food around the place in various forms and storage methods that I think I'm going to expeniment with. Some of it I know the history of, some of it I was given a guess about. Here's what I've got-
I have over 400lbs of hard red wheat that has been stored in a 50 gallon steel open-topped drum (out of the bags) in a basement for about 20 years, or so. I don't know the history, I purchased the wheat and some rice from a guy when his mom died. We've used quite a bit of the wheat for bread but we really prefer white wheat, so it mostly sits around at this point. I also have old red wheat of unknown age stored in non-food grade crappy buckets (given to me) and some even older red wheat stored in old Army 20 gallon water drums with tin lids (not well sealed at all). I also have rice from the same source that has been stored out of the bags in plastic drums. So, 20 year old rice in barrels without mylar. Some of the rice (not all the barrels) are showing some oxidation (yellowing of the rice), but not all of it. I have some dehydrated soups from the LDS church in #10 cans from 1998. These are 'just add water' soups with rice, lentils, dehyrated veggies, etc. No meat it in, I've never eaten it, it was given to me years ago and I just found it the other day. White wheat stored in the bag in 50 gallon steel drums for about 4 years. This is stuff I purchased and we are (slowly) rotating through at about 5 bags of wheat a year. 7 bags fit in a barrel so that I can take the bags out to move or use them. I find this is my favorite way to store bulk basics. Pinto beans stored in the bag for about 4 years in barrels again. Again, this is stuff I purchased, I've heard that beans get hard and won't soften for eating, mine were stored in an unheated/uncooled garage in Utah. I also have beans, rice, etc stored in cans and sealed with O2 absorbers, etc, but I really don't think they will be interesting. I'm willing to open this stuff up and take some pictures if there is any interest. I don't know how I'd get the nutritional value tested, but I have tried sprouting the wheat. The old red wheat didn't sprout worth a crap, but the newer white wheat sprouts like mad still. Any test or interest in what it looks like or how it cooks up? Most of the red wheat is reserved for chickens at this point, I grinds up just fine but we don't care for it as much, and I was just given another 300 lbs or so of old red wheat. I won't be able to get after much of it until next weekend, but if someone has any ideas about testing it or has questions I'll gladly give it a try. I can tell right now that I haven't seen a weevil in any of it in the last 5 years, but we did quit using the old red wheat about a year ago. I have not opened the water cans of wheat since they were given to me, about 3 months ago. |
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Interested. I'd love to have someone dumping hundred of pounds of stuff on me. Wheat is hard to get around here. |
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Originally Posted By xmission:
Interested. I'd love to have someone dumping hundred of pounds of stuff on me. Wheat is hard to get around here. I have to confess, I have a little bit of an agenda regarding this- I'd like to prove that you can store bulk grains a lot less expensively than HDPE buckets with Omega lids and mylar bags sealed with impulse cannons and phasers after flux capacitors have soaked up 1.21 jigawatts..... In short, most of this stuff is just dumped into barrels and I started eating it 20 years or so later. Too bad about the wheat. I got 180lbs a few weeks ago out of the free section of the local classifieds. It's not the best chicken feed, but it's the cheapest chicken feed I've got! |
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You certainly can skip the mylar/O2 bit if you keep it dry and away from pests. I have rice that has been in a plastic bag in a bin for about 7 years now that still looks fine. Just looks slightly oxidized, but I would have no problem eating it. Same for pinto beans that I bought at the same time. I keep it around sort of as a control group. PAW productions video showed some rice and TVP that had been in just plain buckets for a decade in hot weather, and appeared to be OK. I do the mylar/O2 thing just because I can't think of a good reason not to make it as bulletproof as possible. Makes up for storing in a location that goes from 40s to 115 over the course of a year. Buckets also make it easier for me to store and move around because I don't have a good place to put a bunch of drums. I stock up a bit at a time anyway, so drums would be overkill. Odds are the buckets themselves would be plenty of protection for my stuff, but I would feel like an asshole if someday I needed it and found that it had been degraded or ruined because I cut some very easy corners. That's basically why I prep in the first place, not because I think that the zombies are coming any day now. Spending an extra 30 minutes and a couple of bucks = not ever having to wonder if weevils can get into my stuff. |
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I hear you, cutting corners is not really cost effective, especially when storing food in other lifesaving/sustaining items. The problem I've seen is a lot of people are overwhelmed with the cost of storing food because they see the 'need' to spend 3x the cost of the food in packaging and equipment. When you are tight on funds I think it's perfectly acceptable to start to pinch pennies in some areas, packaging is one of those areas. Here is a link to one of my previous threads about packaging food in cans-
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=10&f=17&t=615726 From a larger perspective, it's better to have more food stored well, than less food stored perfectly. Here are some pics- This is the cheap buckets of red wheat stored for an unknown time in unknown conditions, but the buckets are VERY cheap and have no seal. 
The wheat is in good shape and free of any sign of bugs or vermin. Berries are still plump and healthy looking, no problems that I can see. Next weekend I'll pull some out and try to sprout it. 
This is the barrel of over-20 year old red wheat. The barrel lid has no seal but fits quite tightly over the rim of the drum, not airtight by any stretch however. 
Here is the wheat from that barrel- I’ve eaten quite a bit of this without any adverse effects (other than this twitch…. I did try to sprout some last year and it did quite poorly, I’ll try some again next week as well. 
Here is one of the barrels of rice that came with the previously shown wheat. Again, no seal just a fair fitting lid on the barrel. The blue barrels in back have much tighter fitting lids and show much less oxidation than this rice. 
Another rice barrel- 
Rice from the first barrel. I dug into it as far as I could without spilling looking for vermin or whatever, all I found was a few small rocks, pictured- 
This is the real wildcard stuff. Stored for well over a decade (probably 30 years old) in poor containers in vermin-rich environments. 
This is from the green water cans, this looks like twice cleaned wheat due to the chaff, rocks and sticks. It’s vermin free and looks very good. I found nothing that I could fault with this wheat. 
This can is just a simple metal can with a slip-fit lid. The wheat looked ok, but there is quite a bit of these small black things present. Some are split in half and appear to be bug eggs. Rather nasty really. 
Any other requests for test? |
| Please keep up the testing! This is very interesting...I appreciate what you're doing! |
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Originally Posted By Sixtigers:
Please keep up the testing! This is very interesting...I appreciate what you're doing! OK.... How do you want me to test it? I can try to sprout some and I can try to eat some. Other than that I'm just taking pictures. Maybe it's worth grinding some and putting it into jars on the shelf for a while to see what grows more weevil in the next month or so. I wonder how long I'd have to let it sit to know if it's going to end up 'weeviled'. This might end up a pretty good experiment yet. |
| What would be intersting is if another memebr somewhere humid, like LA or Fl had some stuff lying around, so we could compare the the effect humidity plays on things. |
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Originally Posted By MisterPX:
What would be intersting is if another memebr somewhere humid, like LA or Fl had some stuff lying around, so we could compare the the effect humidity plays on things. That would be interesting. Wisconsin is humid.... Got wheat? 
I just ground them up (odd little black crud, sticks, chaff and all) and put the flour into jars. I'll let it sit for a few weeks and we'll see if any weevil get started. Here's a pic 
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Originally Posted By SCW:
Originally Posted By MisterPX:
What would be intersting is if another memebr somewhere humid, like LA or Fl had some stuff lying around, so we could compare the the effect humidity plays on things. That would be interesting. Wisconsin is humid.... Got wheat?
I just ground them up (odd little black crud, sticks, chaff and all) and put the flour into jars. I'll let it sit for a few weeks and we'll see if any weevil get started. Here's a pic http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae294/SCW-Shooter/P1130150.jpg Wouldn't that just grind up and destroy the we-evil eggs too? E/never saw a weevil... |
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Originally Posted By MisterPX: What would be intersting is if another memebr somewhere humid, like LA or Fl had some stuff lying around, so we could compare the the effect humidity plays on things. all ready done. its all on the PAW channel on youtube. Yes the TVP and rice did look OK> It tasted fine as well and not just to me. Packing is not expensive or hard. The issue and one i think that the OP is trying to prove is that it doesnt need to be like the internet mantra of- new hdpe-food grade buckets that cost 6$ new hdpe gamma lids for said buckets -6$ 7 mil 20x30 mylar bags - 1-3$ each 2000 cc O2 abosrobers- est price 1$ each that you need a 180$ impluse sealer to do so. if done on the cheap the most expensive thing you will purchase will be the mylar and O'2s. Can you get away with out them. Yes. BUT this is very very very VERY dependant on grain condition, the AO is which it is stored and the conditions over time. IMHO however its is cheaper to just use the mylar and O2's or even just mylar if your cheap to protect the grains from moisture etc. You want a sprout test i have a can of "sprouting seeds" that are at LEAST from the mid 90's if not older( i cant find any info sides some folks saying it was big in the early 80's )..... NEO-LIFE "NEST" storage pack whole triticale seeds #2 can they are o2 removed......everyone sells seeds these days and there is a BIG controversy if o2 removing on the seeds will "kill" them making them useless.... OP do your test....disproving the myths out there about how "hard" it is to store food was the motivator for our food storage films....... |
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Buckets are free (or very cheap) a lot of places that just want to get rid of them. My sealer is a clothes iron and an aluminum level that I already owned. |
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BTW, the black balls look more like seeds to me. To big/solid for eggs, too regular for turds. Could it be purple sorghum that looks black?
I can't believe someone is spending $6/bucket for gamma lids. Just buy a few. New plain lids are just $2 each, and if you are using mylar, an old lid works fine, even if it has a cut in the top to empty faster. Firehouse subs is still selling buckets with lids for $2/ea |
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Originally Posted By SCW:
I have some dehydrated soups from the LDS church in #10 cans from 1998. These are 'just add water' soups with rice, lentils, dehyrated veggies, etc. No meat it in, I've never eaten it, it was given to me years ago and I just found it the other day. According to Jesse Ventura WATER is going to be the item in short supply!! 
ETA: Cool writeup and pics!!! |
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A quick update on this thread.
It's been nearly 3 months now since I ground the wheat and put the jars on the shelf. I just inspected all of them and there is not a single weevel to be found. So far so good, but I was sort of hoping to find some just for the sake fo the thread. |
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If we are talking about old, I can verify that pinto beans from 1981 are no longer food, but driveway material. Macaroni of the same age is edible, but looks and tastes oxidized. Both were properly packed for storage. No real suprise.
I just have to say this. In the case of bugs infesting your grain, always choose the lesser of two weevils. 
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Here's the direct link to the videos Protus mentioned.
http://www.youtube.com/user/delta69alpha#p/u/50/BBoKCSFA1lQ http://www.youtube.com/user/delta69alpha#p/u/48/HVMDBVJCodI When we made those videos half of the purpose was to show the results of improperly packed (the rice that was oxidized) food over a decent time frame (17 years). Meanwhile we opened rice just a few years newer (when mylars and oxygen absorbers started being available- mid 90's)that was packed with absorbers and mylar and the rice was still white and showed no oxidation. Yes it's flat out retarded to pay $6. for a bucket, $6. for a gamma seal lid you don't need, etc. However it's also retarded not to protect your food. Mylar's are around a dollar. I haven't bought absorbers in literally about 12 years having about a pallet left over from our cannery operation in 98 and 99 so I can't tell you what D2000 absorbers cost now. When you get down to brass tacks- the ONLY item you cannot reuse is the absorber. The mylar is reusable, the bucket is reusable, if you rode the short bus in and bought gamma seal lids for all your buckets, they also are re-usable. Obviously I'm not a big fan of gamma seal lids. A $4. lid lifter will do the job for a lifetime versus $6. or more for the silly lids. Your money buy them if you want however. So REALLY, the only TRUE loss on packaging costs over the long haul is the absorber since it's the only item not reusable. Yep, you can find buckets for free or $1. each. Mylars are cheap. The more important monetary consideration is FUTURE COSTS of the food. For example, the rice I put up in 1988 was $14. per HUNDRED lbs. How much is it TODAY? 50 lbs. for $16. or so? Doubled in price and has been higher in the last couple years. So while your "stepping over a dollar to pick up a dime" trying to chince on not using mylar and absorbers, the food that will be worth maybe twice what you paid for it will be deteriorating. Also, keep in mind the OP shows Utah for location. You try to store bulk grain in barrels with NO protection in the Southeast and forgettaboutit... You'll be up to your eyes in weevils, those nasty smelly flying creatures and God only knows what else. Further, you just dump 300 lbs. of whole grains in a barrel, the smallest amount of water infiltration ruins the ENTIRE LOT of it to mold. 300 lbs. is a lotta eggs in ONE basket. Now if their was 6-7 individual 40-50 lb. mylar bags inside the barrel, then water infiltration wouldn't be a problem and if by chance you botched one seal, it would only mean a loss of 40-50 lbs. versus 300 lbs. Let's not forget WHY you are putting up food. When you REALLY need it, you'll need it to be the best condition it can be. This "well I'll eat it if it's moldy, full of bugs, etc. " talk isn't very realistic. Sure you COULD (most probably won't) but the nutrition you get from it would be negligible. Hell as it was we got so many "you aren't REALLY going to eat that rice" comments after showing the oxidized rice. Sure we ate it, but we take multivitamins every day, exercise regularly and balance stuff like that with fresh stuff from the gardens, orchards and animals. Will you for certain be able to do that in a survival situation? I've been storing food since 1986. I ran a mid size commercial cannery for two years in the late 90's. The very small cost of using absorbers and mylar liners is extremely affordable to me. We use storage food on a daily basis and have since 1999. Lowdown3 |
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Bucketsw/lids are $2/ea at firehouse subs, or free from a number of sources.
Lids are $2.09 from McMaster Carr. I can't figure out why you would want all gamma seal lids. Kind of like storing all of your ammo in stripper clips.. Mylar liners are $3.15 ea from Impak Oxygen absorbers are $0.60 for 2-1500 cc (same source) So my cost to do it right is $5.85per bucket, using my free buckets. A few cents more for the firehouse buckets, and I think you need something to hold the lid on (with the mylar, it is only there as a cover, and to support the bucket on top.) A few gamma seal lids are nice to use the 5 gallon pails as bins in the kitchen. |
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Well, I'm in a little of both camps on this. I have stored wheat and corn in open top 55 gallon drums for 10 years now without any issues at all. I dump it in the barrels and screw the top band on and call it good. I have also had rice stored in 5 gallon buckets- no mylar, no absorbers etc...that was full of bugs within a year. What pissed me off about that is that they were really good buckets with seals AND I had frozen all of that rice for at least a week and it still got buggy somehow. This food is all stored in a very low humidity area here in West Texas and much of it is stored underground in a cellar where the temps are pretty stable year round- nearly ideal storage conditions. Like I said, it really pissed me off when I lost 150 pounds of rice.
The wheat and corn I don't really worry about I get pretty much all I want for almost no cost though it is "field run" but if I'm hungry I figure I can pick out a few rocks or stems, no big deal. The rice cost me good money though. So, from now on all of my rice gets mylar and o2 absorbers. I'll keep the wheat and corn as it is. You don't have to spend big money on food storage but it isn't a good idea to cut too many corners either, it's LIFE INSURANCE after all. |
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Great thread, thanks op for taking the time to share the knowledge.
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I was poking through 'My Topics' and saw that this one had been forgotten and neglected, so I'll give it an update.
After 1.5 years none of the wheat showed any signs of vermin, caking or sour smell. All of it looked just as good as the day it was ground, so I trashed it all. Side note, we've been trying to use up a bunch of that old cruddy wheat as chicken food and it won't sprout- at all. So we just soak it for a day and the chickens still love it. |
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Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Tag for results Um, that last post was results. After 18 months no vermin and no change in apparent quality. I ended the test and dumped it out, the rest of the grain goes to the birds. You don't want to see the results of that... 
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| I didn't know a topic could be revived that was this old. Still valuable information, 10 years belated thanks for posting it. |
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| Just my experience, take for what it is, I packed rice, pintos, and a few other items in Sam's club buckets in 2010 IIRC. The buckets have degraded and cracked in the last few years. They were stored in an open garage, then later in an unventilated shed. I don't know if other buckets are better than the bakery buckets I used. Mine didn't last. |
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Originally Posted By SCW: I have to confess, I have a little bit of an agenda regarding this- I'd like to prove that you can store bulk grains a lot less expensively than HDPE buckets with Omega lids and mylar bags sealed with impulse cannons and phasers after flux capacitors have soaked up 1.21 jigawatts..... In short, most of this stuff is just dumped into barrels and I started eating it 20 years or so later. Too bad about the wheat. I got 180lbs a few weeks ago out of the free section of the local classifieds. It's not the best chicken feed, but it's the cheapest chicken feed I've got! I have the same beliefs as you regarding storage technique and how long certain food will last even in unfavorable storage conditions.....but if a person spends even a little bit if time, 5 gallon buckets can be had for free from a lot of restaurants. Once you have the bucket, it’s pretty much a no brainer to go ahead and use Mylar bags and a couple O2 absorbers. |
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Originally Posted By SCW: I have to confess, I have a little bit of an agenda regarding this- I'd like to prove that you can store bulk grains a lot less expensively than HDPE buckets with Omega lids and mylar bags sealed with ! Someone in a recent mylar thread mentioned that they'd been using 40 quart rubbermaid roughneck containers. Which seems to be a good idea, given that they stack and carry well and don't scream "BUCKETS-O-GRAINS". Even 5 gallon buckets with regular cheapo lids should work fine; bugs shouldn't be getting into mylar, you're primary keeping dirt and rodents out. I know plastic containers aren't actually rodent-proof, but you have to have some serious unsupervised rodent infestation for them to be chewing through that kind of stuff. The reason they get into gamma-lidded dog food containers because every critter for a mile can smell the stuff loose in the container. |
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Originally Posted By shooter_gregg: Just my experience, take for what it is, I packed rice, pintos, and a few other items in Sam's club buckets in 2010 IIRC. The buckets have degraded and cracked in the last few years. They were stored in an open garage, then later in an unventilated shed. I don't know if other buckets are better than the bakery buckets I used. Mine didn't last. I have 5 and 6 gallon buckets from emergency essentials and non of them have cracked or gotten brittle. We have moved them three times with no issues, always stored in a non-climate controlled garage. My grandma had 100s of pound of wheat stored in large plastic barrels for 40+ years. When she died my uncle opened the barrels, ground the wheat and used it up with no problems. To OP’s original query regarding nutritional value, BYU has opened 20 year old cans of wheat, rice,etc. and tested the nutritional value. The results showed very little loss. Holy necromancy on this thread, wow. |
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I had white rice in unsealed poly bottles (whey protein mix jar) in my hot Phoenix garage for 11 years and it cooked up white and fluffy. This was just the leftovers from the mylar/O2/bucket process, but it made a decent experiment. A heavy duty HDPE pet food container with a gamma seal on it was eaten through by rats. They didn't get all the way in, but did breach the wall a bit. |
Originally Posted By Extorris:
I've only gotten two warnings in almost 15 years and over 91,000 posts...and I'm an asshole. I don't know how guys rack up all these warnings and temp locks.
I've only gotten two warnings in almost 15 years and over 91,000 posts...and I'm an asshole. I don't know how guys rack up all these warnings and temp locks.