223- Deer Hunting Rounds (Page 5 of 15)
| Figured I would post here, does anyone/has anyone used the Black Hills ammo topped with 62 gr Barnes TSX on deer? I have had VERY good experiences with Black Hills as far as quality goes so I figured that I would try them for hunting ammo first, before I start to reload. Here is the Link to the specs. Any input would be great. |
| I have used the 62 gr TSX's from CorBon, good clean kills on 3 doe's last year. I have not tried the BH with 62 gr TSX but I use BH 60 gr Vmax on yotes and in my RRA Predator Pursuit it shoots under an inch at 100 yds. Didn't know BH was loading the 62 gr TSX so I will be inclined to try a box to see how they shoot in my gun. |
| Any bullet/round........as long as it is a neck shot and under a hunred yards,hardly a creature walking including humans that can live after one of those.If you want to use a .223/5.56 bullet get you one of those WSSM with a 64 grain soft point,it worked for me many times with heart lung shots,ran and dropped about equal to the distance shot from |
| Guys, I am new to the forum, but I have been quite successful with NC deer using a 55 grain Nosler Ballistic tip over some IMR 4064 powder. I have used this load in my Ruger 77 and Remington 700 for deer hunting. Tissue damage is massive and there is no exit wound so all the energy is in the animal. |
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Originally Posted By TheNewGabriel:
Figured I would post here, does anyone/has anyone used the Black Hills ammo topped with 62 gr Barnes TSX on deer? I have had VERY good experiences with Black Hills as far as quality goes so I figured that I would try them for hunting ammo first, before I start to reload. Here is the Link to the specs. Any input would be great. $71.00!!! |
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Originally Posted By DrDeath:
Originally Posted By TheNewGabriel:
Figured I would post here, does anyone/has anyone used the Black Hills ammo topped with 62 gr Barnes TSX on deer? I have had VERY good experiences with Black Hills as far as quality goes so I figured that I would try them for hunting ammo first, before I start to reload. Here is the Link to the specs. Any input would be great. $71.00!!! That is equivalent to just over $28.00/box of twenty. |
Originally Posted By JPratt06:
Next time they visit, answer the door in a tinfoil hat and underwear, clutching a beltfed and a copy of 1984.
Next time they visit, answer the door in a tinfoil hat and underwear, clutching a beltfed and a copy of 1984.
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Originally Posted By DrDeath:
Originally Posted By TheNewGabriel:
Figured I would post here, does anyone/has anyone used the Black Hills ammo topped with 62 gr Barnes TSX on deer? I have had VERY good experiences with Black Hills as far as quality goes so I figured that I would try them for hunting ammo first, before I start to reload. Here is the Link to the specs. Any input would be great. $71.00!!! That's for a box of 50. You can reload/handload that exact same ammo yourself for less than HALF of that price... I load up 69 gn SMK's to practice with since they are almost the exact same length as the 62 gn TSX and fly the same out of my rifles. |
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." ~ Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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Originally Posted By DPeacher:
danc46, scepticism is not a bad thing, but being a blind sceptic certainly has it's shortcomings. I'm glad to see you were willing to give a proper .224" game bullet an honest day in court. I hope to see you post some more pics. 
We're having a problem with coyotes this year. Haven't started thinning them out yet but we will. My son hit a buck in the shoulder, broke it's leg, with a 50 cal sabot using a 240 XTP Hornady. He lost the deer. I'll find him if the coyotes don't get him. He was using three pellets of Triple 7 out of a Encore 50x209 and that XTP at 40 yards. Even with a heavy bullet and plenty of power, getting past that shoulder bone on large bucks can be a bitch. My son is no slouch of a shot and has killed dozens of deer with everything from a mechanical broadhead to Dodge pickup. 
I'm going to be loathe to ever use a 223 bullet, no matter the make or weight, on a nice buck. That's not skepticism, that's 35 years of hunting whitetails in all types of terrain and in several different states. |
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Originally Posted By danc46:
Originally Posted By DPeacher:
danc46, scepticism is not a bad thing, but being a blind sceptic certainly has it's shortcomings. I'm glad to see you were willing to give a proper .224" game bullet an honest day in court. I hope to see you post some more pics.
We're having a problem with coyotes this year. Haven't started thinning them out yet but we will. My son hit a buck in the shoulder, broke it's leg, with a 50 cal sabot using a 240 XTP Hornady. He lost the deer. I'll find him if the coyotes don't get him. He was using three pellets of Triple 7 out of a Encore 50x209 and that XTP at 40 yards. Even with a heavy bullet and plenty of power, getting past that shoulder bone on large bucks can be a bitch. My son is no slouch of a shot and has killed dozens of deer with everything from a mechanical broadhead to Dodge pickup.
I'm going to be loathe to ever use a 223 bullet, no matter the make or weight, on a nice buck. That's not skepticism, that's 35 years of hunting whitetails in all types of terrain and in several different states. A .223 will punch a hole through 3/8ths of an inch of mild steel. That .50 will only leave a shined up dent in the same material. Unless the deer you are hunting are wearing SAPI plates over their vitals, .223 will get the job done when proper hunting bullets are used. |
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." ~ Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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Originally Posted By DPeacher:
A .223 will punch a hole through 3/8ths of an inch of mild steel. That .50 will only leave a shined up dent in the same material. Unless the deer you are hunting are wearing SAPI plates over their vitals, .223 will get the job done when proper hunting bullets are used. I agree with you 100%. I'd like to see what a 223 Nosler Partition will do on a front shoulder of a large buck. I promise you, the first big buck we drop the butchered two legs will become a test medium for the Noslers. My dad once dropped a buck with a 165 gr Hornady Interlock DRT with a front shoulder hit. Dead center of the leg bone. There was an exit wound on the other side. When we cut the deer up, there was NO penetration on the opposite rib cage but the spine was torn up. The bullet apparently had broken up and the jacket separated and rolled around the carcass under the skin and exited on the opposite side, with the core hitting the spine. I've dropped several elk and numerous deer with that same bullet. Even hitting a buck in the front chest and exiting out the back toward the rump at 300 yds+. You've got my attention though. I just am loathe to try the Nosler 223 Partition on a nice buck. My gun club does not allow any centerfire 22s on the metal silhouettes exactly because of what you pointed out. I'm just going to have to shoot some heavy deer leg bones and see what will happen. 
ETA We have a custom processor over in Guthrie that is a pretty good friend of mine. He and his family always made a big whoop to-doo over Old Bud when we brought in a deer he had shot. I'll hit him up for some heavy buck leg bones to run some tests on when I take a deer into them for processing. He's an ardent hunter and I'm sure will be glad to help. Interesting story and thread drift, but his son killed a nice piebald buck about 10 years ago. Indians and some others made a huge fuss about killing a "white" spirit deer and now it is illegal to shoot a piebald deer in Oklahoma without consent from the Oklahoma Department of Wildlife Conservation. 
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I like to pop armored eyeballs! [img]icon_smile_big.gif[/img]
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Originally Posted By danc46: Originally Posted By DPeacher: A .223 will punch a hole through 3/8ths of an inch of mild steel. That .50 will only leave a shined up dent in the same material. Unless the deer you are hunting are wearing SAPI plates over their vitals, .223 will get the job done when proper hunting bullets are used. I agree with you 100%. I'd like to see what a 223 Nosler Partition will do on a front shoulder of a large buck. I promise you, the first big buck we drop the butchered two legs will become a test medium for the Noslers. My dad once dropped a buck with a 165 gr Hornady Interlock DRT with a front shoulder hit. Dead center of the leg bone. There was an exit wound on the other side. When we cut the deer up, there was NO penetration on the opposite rib cage but the spine was torn up. The bullet apparently had broken up and the jacket separated and rolled around the carcass under the skin and exited on the opposite side, with the core hitting the spine. I've dropped several elk and numerous deer with that same bullet. Even hitting a buck in the front chest and exiting out the back toward the rump at 300 yds+. You've got my attention though. I just am loathe to try the Nosler 223 Partition on a nice buck. My gun club does not allow any centerfire 22s on the metal silhouettes exactly because of what you pointed out. I'm just going to have to shoot some heavy deer leg bones and see what will happen. Bullets do some weird stuff, that's for sure. I think almost everyone has had one of those head-scratching experiences when gutting a deer going "how the hell did the bullet do THAT?" DPeacher swears by the Barnes TSX - it's a solid copper bullet that expands to expose 4 sharp petals. They penetrate very well, although the petals may shear off going through bone. He gave me a box to try in my gun, and they group the best of any bullet I've tried so far. I've taken a couple of deer with them, and I know Dave has in several calibers as well. I got a bunch of the 139gr Interlocks for my 7mag, but they just don't group that well in my gun unfortunately. [ETA] My son shoots Winchester 64gr PowerPoints out of my M4. The first deer he ever shot, the bullet made a nice clean hole through the shoulder and pretty much stayed intact. |
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Bullets do some weird stuff, that's for sure. I think almost everyone has had one of those head-scratching experiences when gutting a deer going "how the hell did the bullet do THAT?"
No doubt I once shot a buck at a perfect 130 yd broadside with a 180g ballistic silvertip from a 300wby. The bullet went in the shoulder, came out going straight up between the shoulder blade and ribcage on the same side as the entrance. Did not enter or damage the chest cavity at all yet knocked the deer flat dead like you'd tripped over his power cord. |
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Originally Posted By wtwining:
If one has a 16'' AR 1/7 twist, what would the max range to use on deer with 62gr. G.I. bullets? I would think 400m would be max, what ya think? I would NEVER use 855s on deer. They are not working all that well for the military in carbines. My nephew pulled a tour of duty in the first battle of faluga and swears they are ineffective at most ranges beyond 50yds using short barrel M-4s. He has spent the last 8 yrs. with the Marine grunts and knows his shit. He said they act like ice picks with no yaw or fragmentation. He said he has seen Iraqies hit in the head and the bullets never penetrated the skull only passed under the scalp and left the enemy totally capable of returning fire. Please use a expanding bullet designed to kill not designed for politics. I use 62gr. Federal Fusions and they work great and are not as expensixe as the corbons. Good luck and good hunting. 
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I also posted these in the ammo forum. Here are a couple of pictures of a recovered 55 grain Barnes TSX bullet out of my daughter's deer. Shot was facing us at about 40 yards, bullet went in where the neck meets the chest and stopped just under the hide near the back right leg, deer was a small doe and was DRT.
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Originally Posted By VTDuckGuy:
I also posted these in the ammo forum. Here are a couple of pictures of a recovered 55 grain Barnes TSX bullet out of my daughter's deer. Shot was facing us at about 40 yards, bullet went in where the neck meets the chest and stopped just under the hide near the back right leg, deer was a small doe and was DRT. http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/HJF71/IMG_1865.jpg http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/HJF71/IMG_1863.jpg http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/HJF71/IMG_1860.jpg http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/HJF71/IMG_1856.jpg Very impressive. Thanks for posting the picture. 
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If you don't want to get hurt, don't get into a fight!
And if you don't fight, don't whine when they bend you over.
And if you don't fight, don't whine when they bend you over.
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Originally Posted By Zhukov: Well aware thanks for the heads up. Originally Posted By Callahan: Just a heads up I just ordered some factory 70gr TSX, from ASYM Precision for $62 per 50. Just remember that you need a 1:7 to shoot the 70gr TSX due the length of the bullet. |
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Proud Member of "Ranstad's Militia"...The Fantastic Bastards"
JMB Disciple
Proud Member of "Ranstad's Militia"...The Fantastic Bastards"
JMB Disciple
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Originally Posted By jonc7:
My son took his first buck with my dpms ar on 10/24/10 with my handloaded 62 grain tsx over 24.7 grains of Varget, deer ran 20 yards <a href="" target="_blank">[url=</a> that's the exact load I planned on using this year out of my SPS tactical. Shot the best group for me. Glad to see it's enough velocity for a kill. I was worried since I figure it's around 2700 fps but have no access to chrono. I'm going to load some up around and a little above max to see what I get for groups. |
"Procrastination is the thief of time"
-Edward Young
-Edward Young
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http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh14/wtdpn115/IMAG0084.jpg
m4 .. 75gr ..shot it at 125yards..deer tried to run off but only made it 15yards |
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Originally Posted By USMC69-70:
Originally Posted By wtwining:
If one has a 16'' AR 1/7 twist, what would the max range to use on deer with 62gr. G.I. bullets? I would think 400m would be max, what ya think? I would NEVER use 855s on deer. They are not working all that well for the military in carbines. My nephew pulled a tour of duty in the first battle of faluga and swears they are ineffective at most ranges beyond 50yds using short barrel M-4s. He has spent the last 8 yrs. with the Marine grunts and knows his shit. He said they act like ice picks with no yaw or fragmentation. He said he has seen Iraqies hit in the head and the bullets never penetrated the skull only passed under the scalp and left the enemy totally capable of returning fire. Please use a expanding bullet designed to kill not designed for politics. I use 62gr. Federal Fusions and they work great and are not as expensixe as the corbons. Good luck and good hunting. Quite Correct. The M855 was designed to deal with the Soviet Horde crossing the Fulda Gap wearing their version of body armor which at the time consisted of titanium plates. Against this the M855 worked well, not so well against malnourished unarmored tribesman. My use of the 5.56/.223 has always been in marshy/swamp areas. I myself would not have any quams at 300 m but for me that's the limit. Anything more it I reach for the .308 as I would be hunting field that would give me 300 +. |
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To my Father, I learned the lesson Dad, may your soul rest in peace, You Led the Way.
Death Sanctions All Mistakes
To my Father, I learned the lesson Dad, may your soul rest in peace, You Led the Way.
Death Sanctions All Mistakes
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Got my first one with my AR today, using Silver State Armory's loads with the Barnes 70 grain TSX bullet. Just a button buck, about 125 yards, dropped him in his tracks. Bullet made a complete pass through. Entrance hole was a little smaller than a dime and broke two ribs. The exit hole was between the size of a nickel and a quarter. It did it's job, the deer never took a step and expired in less than 30 seconds.
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| got a 75lb doe today out of an M&P15 at about 25 yards using Hornady TAP. Tiny entrance, no exit. In one side of the heart, other side of the heart minced into itty bitty peices. Exited the other side of the rib cage, and lodged between the ribs and skin opposite the enrty side. Worked perfectly. |
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Originally Posted By raymondh3201:
Originally Posted By USMC69-70:
Originally Posted By wtwining:
If one has a 16'' AR 1/7 twist, what would the max range to use on deer with 62gr. G.I. bullets? I would think 400m would be max, what ya think? I would NEVER use 855s on deer. They are not working all that well for the military in carbines. My nephew pulled a tour of duty in the first battle of faluga and swears they are ineffective at most ranges beyond 50yds using short barrel M-4s. He has spent the last 8 yrs. with the Marine grunts and knows his shit. He said they act like ice picks with no yaw or fragmentation. He said he has seen Iraqies hit in the head and the bullets never penetrated the skull only passed under the scalp and left the enemy totally capable of returning fire. Please use a expanding bullet designed to kill not designed for politics. I use 62gr. Federal Fusions and they work great and are not as expensixe as the corbons. Good luck and good hunting. Quite Correct. The M855 was designed to deal with the Soviet Horde crossing the Fulda Gap wearing their version of body armor which at the time consisted of titanium plates. Against this the M855 worked well, not so well against malnourished unarmored tribesman. My use of the 5.56/.223 has always been in marshy/swamp areas. I myself would not have any quams at 300 m but for me that's the limit. Anything more it I reach for the .308 as I would be hunting field that would give me 300 +. Thanks for the info
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| Shot two deer recently with 62 gr Nosler Partition. One was today, the other was 3 days ago. Both were good size does shot at the same location at a range of 70 yds. The first doe got hit right through the lungs, limped about 30 yds away and fell down. The bullet went all the way through and left a quarter size exit wound and a nice blood trail. The second got hit in the shoulder blade at a slight angle with her head towards me. She ran to within 10 feet of the last deer and fell down. The bullet did not exit, which doesn't really bother me other than the fact there was not much of a blood trail. I am very satisfied. |
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Originally Posted By Zoomer302:
Like I said - I dont want to start a caliber or interweb war with anyone. If you like it, are allowed to use it then by all means shoot what you like. I (emphasis added) like a 150 - 168 grain Nosler Ballistic tip pushed out of a 308 or preferrably a 30-06. I (emphasis added) consider a 55 grain A-max for use on deer a crime. It's a varmint bullet for Christs sake. Is it accurate..Yep. Can it kill a deer...Yep. But call a spade a spade there are "better choices" out there. So we all have 55-62 grain "SHTF" and "defense loads" intended to be used against other human beings. Or the "I"m a wanna be Special Forces" when I take pictures of me and my AR looking very "tacticool' with several hi capacity magazines of this stuff, again intended to be used against other human beings. Shooting a deer with a .223 round is a crime? 
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I got my first AR kill this past weekend. Here is the gun, or at least most of it:
Here is the damage: 
I loaded up a set of 62gr Barnes Tac-X M/LE bullets in a winchester cases with Rem 7 1/2s and a charge of 25.3gr of Varget. I pulled my shot just a bit cause I flinched when I thought about the brake on my gun echoing back in the stand. The bullet entered her shoulder about an inch and a half to the right of where I was aiming. After it took a quarter sized chunk out of there, it unzipped the rib cage, as you can see in the pic, and sliced the lung open along the way. After not moving for 5 minutes or so, I went over to her and she bolted for about 125 yards at a "dead" sprint. The entry and exit wounds were so small, almost the same size, that there was only a half dollar size blood spot where she was laying. I know now from personal experience that the Barnes TSX style bullets do a great job of punching through bones since mine went through about 9 different ones. |
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Originally Posted By JGSCAB012:
....I know now from personal experience that the Barnes TSX style bullets do a great job of punching through bones since mine went through about 9 different ones. No doubt about that. But so will AP rounds. The point is will they hold together after hitting a heavy bone, expand a great deal, and penetrate deeply - all at the same time! Bullet performance in hunting large game will hinge on three things: a. weight retention even after hitting a heavy bone b. penetration to get maximum organ damage c. significant expansion |
If you don't want to get hurt, don't get into a fight!
And if you don't fight, don't whine when they bend you over.
And if you don't fight, don't whine when they bend you over.
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Originally Posted By danc46:
Originally Posted By JGSCAB012:
....I know now from personal experience that the Barnes TSX style bullets do a great job of punching through bones since mine went through about 9 different ones. No doubt about that. But so will AP rounds. The point is will they hold together after hitting a heavy bone, expand a great deal, and penetrate deeply - all at the same time! Bullet performance in hunting large game will hinge on three things: a. weight retention even after hitting a heavy bone b. penetration to get maximum organ damage c. significant expansion The Barnes TSX will do all of those things as long as the impact velocity is 1800 fps or greater. The pic above shows ample evidence of the TSX expanding and holding together after breaking several inches of bone. It also appears the deer was facing the shooter and the bullet entered the left side of the chest and ran down the rib cage in a manner that did not permit damage to both lungs. I've read about hunters killing perfectly healthy deer only to discover one lung was collapsed and shriveled up to about the size of a plum due to a previous gunshot wound. I can now see how just such a wound can happen. |
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." ~ Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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Hey guys, what would be the best off the shelf ammo for deer hunting? By off the shelf, I mean factory ammo, I guess that's the term, I have a 1/7 twist rate on my barrel, so I can use the heaviest bullets out there, but I have no clue about hunting rounds, I usually just buy fmj's and target shoot, but I have the opportunity to hunt some smaller deer with my great uncle on his land and am fully aware of the limitations of the round on larger deer. If I could afford a larger caliber upper, I'd go for it, but bullets are cheaper than uppers and I'm saving every cent I can for moving in april.
Thanks |
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Originally Posted By reddeth:
Hey guys, what would be the best off the shelf ammo for deer hunting? By off the shelf, I mean factory ammo, I guess that's the term, I have a 1/7 twist rate on my barrel, so I can use the heaviest bullets out there, but I have no clue about hunting rounds, I usually just buy fmj's and target shoot, but I have the opportunity to hunt some smaller deer with my great uncle on his land and am fully aware of the limitations of the round on larger deer. If I could afford a larger caliber upper, I'd go for it, but bullets are cheaper than uppers and I'm saving every cent I can for moving in april. Thanks Go back to page one of this thread and start reading. There are numerous references to what you are asking. The twist rate in your barrel will stabilize every projectile that I am aware of. Bonded core or homogeneous copper bullets provide the most consistent performance, Nosler Partitions are also reliable. I prefer bullets that weigh 60 grains or more. |
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." ~ Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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DPeacher, I am starting to accept the 223 more as a deer hunting round. I talked to a long time friend in Texas last night and he's converting just like I have.
He's happy with the Noslers like I am. I went to get some large buck shoulder bones from the processor that had been laid back for me and they were gone. 
Hopefully, I'll still be able to get some to try out with the Noslers and the Barnes bullets. I do have a question for you. My previous experience with the Barnes bullets are less accuracy with them than the Noslers or Hornadys. The explanation after contacting different bullet manufacturers were the Barnes are harder (more bronze than copper) than the jackets on conventional bullets. It supposedly changes the friction coefficient in the barrels with the deposits they leave behind. The Barnes are harder being solid (obviously to hold together on impact) than the jacketed bullets. To me 2 moa is acceptable for a hunting rifle out to the 200 yards I would limit a 223 round too. Have you had any accuracy problems switching back and forth between bullet makes like major changes in POI? I know my previous experience (10 years ago) with the 180 gr 30 cal Barnes X vs the 180 gr Nosler Partition and Hornady Interlock was not good as far as accuracy out of a Krieger barrel. It might be a moot point now with the really good foaming cleaners that remove barrel deposits so well. |
If you don't want to get hurt, don't get into a fight!
And if you don't fight, don't whine when they bend you over.
And if you don't fight, don't whine when they bend you over.
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danc46, The Barnes TSX is every bit as accurate as a Sierra Match King from my Rem 700 VS.308 Win and both of my .223 AR15's - all shoot sub MOA. HOWEVER, my Steyr SBS Pro Hunter in 6.5x57 will not shoot better then 3.5 - 4 MOA with the TSX, but it will shoot sub MOA with Nosler Accubond, Hornady SST, and Remington CorLokt.
Some barrels love the TSX and others, well, not so much. |
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." ~ Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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Originally Posted By danc46:
DPeacher, I am starting to accept the 223 more as a deer hunting round. I talked to a long time friend in Texas last night and he's converting just like I have. .. The explanation after contacting different bullet manufacturers were the Barnes are harder (more bronze than copper) than the jackets on conventional bullets. It supposedly changes the friction coefficient in the barrels with the deposits they leave behind. The Barnes are harder being solid (obviously to hold together on impact) than the jacketed bullets. To me 2 moa is acceptable for a hunting rifle out to the 200 yards I would limit a 223 round too. Have you had any accuracy problems switching back and forth between bullet makes like major changes in POI? Good question. I took Savage 200 instead of AR-15 this year since I could not get AR-15 to shoot Barnes 62 grain TSX three shot group into less than 3 inches. Savage shot 1 moa with TSX. Savage has 1 in 9 inch twist and AR-15 had 1 in 7 inch twist and shot 64 grain power point well. So this AR-15 just did not like Barnes TSX for some reason. EDIT TO ADD On Savage 200, it shifted 1 inch to the right. On AR-15, it shifted 2 inches to left/up |
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Originally Posted By CornDogg723a: After this last weekend dont put down Hornady 55gr. V-Max I did take one out when I shot its throat out. One shot doesn't make for a reliable determination. If you shoot them in the neck, you can get away with just about any bullet choice. A varmint bullet should NOT be your first choice; you'll be disappointed if you make shots other than what you described. |
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Originally Posted By CornDogg723a:
After this last weekend dont put down Hornady 55gr. V-Max I did take one out when I shot its throat out. The V in V-Max stands for varmint. Don't use varmint bullets on critters larger than coyotes. There are numerous bullets listed in this thread that are suitable for deer sized animals. Use those instead. |
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." ~ Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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Originally Posted By wtwining:
If one has a 16'' AR 1/7 twist, what would the max range to use on deer with 62gr. G.I. bullets? I would think 400m would be max, what ya think? I know this question has been asked and answered already but I found an interesting article that explains the dynamics of the problems the military has had with these bullets in "thin" (read Somali) targets: 62 gr M855 ball ammo Why not M193/M855? While these are not bad bullets, you will note that they are subject to large variations in neck length (distance the bullet penetrates before fragmenting); this variability is not desirable. In case of the short neck length, it is indeed an effective bullet. When 855 doesn't begin to fragment until 8"+, it will not be very effective on front torso shots and thin individuals; this explains the dissatisfaction of US combat troops with M855 in some cases. This is due to a phenomenon recently discovered called the "fleet yaw issue". It was first discussed in an article titled Small Caliber Lethality. There is variation from one rifle to the next about how much the bullet will yaw. The bullet leaving one rifle may exhibit more yaw than the same bullet shot from another rifle. 
The bullets go through this yaw process on the way to becoming stable, and can yaw by as much as 4 degrees at short distances. You can see in the graph above that the bullet becomes very stable from about 100-400 meters, but the greatest variability - unfortunately - is within CQB range. The angle of attack has a profound impact on how a bullet behaves when striking tissue. Consider the two bullets in the picture below:: 
When you overlay a low-AOA bullet on a human torso, you can see that this might mean the bullet won't begin it's yaw cycle and fragment until after it leaves the body, making a hole not much bigger than a conventional .22LR: 
You could engage a target at one distance with a large AOA and great bullet performance, while a few yards more might mean a smaller AOA and poor bullet performance. When M855/193 fragment quickly, they can be very effective. Unfortunately, they could just as easily exhibit poor performance without the end user really knowing how well his particular rifle/ammo performs. I've just spent the last hour and a half reading this thread and it was really interesting. Previously, I had been opposed to hunting deer with the .556 But based on the reports I've read, good, bad and ugly, I would feel confident with a side shot (behind the shoulder, both lungs and/or heart) with a TSX. I've handloaded PowerPoints before and have grouped (consistantly) .75" out of a 14.75 Bushmaster 1:9 I suppose I'd use the 62 TSX (or is it 64?) if I were to hunt a deer. Of course, I just bought a 6.8 upper so my .556 uppers will have to wait a season or two to find out... |
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Originally Posted By DrDeath:
I started this thread in 2009! And still going strong. Awesome! Changed my mind somewhat about using the 223 for whitetails. I'm still leary about using the proper 223 bullet on a trophy buck but I'm damn sure it will do does DRT at ranges 100 to 150.
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If you don't want to get hurt, don't fight!
And if you don't fight, don't whine when they bend you over.
And if you don't fight, don't whine when they bend you over.
|
Originally Posted By danc46:
Originally Posted By DPeacher:
danc46, scepticism is not a bad thing, but being a blind sceptic certainly has it's shortcomings. I'm glad to see you were willing to give a proper .224" game bullet an honest day in court. I hope to see you post some more pics.
We're having a problem with coyotes this year. Haven't started thinning them out yet but we will. My son hit a buck in the shoulder, broke it's leg, with a 50 cal sabot using a 240 XTP Hornady. He lost the deer. I'll find him if the coyotes don't get him. He was using three pellets of Triple 7 out of a Encore 50x209 and that XTP at 40 yards. Even with a heavy bullet and plenty of power, getting past that shoulder bone on large bucks can be a bitch. My son is no slouch of a shot and has killed dozens of deer with everything from a mechanical broadhead to Dodge pickup.
I'm going to be loathe to ever use a 223 bullet, no matter the make or weight, on a nice buck. That's not skepticism, that's 35 years of hunting whitetails in all types of terrain and in several different states. Not trying to sound like a smartass, I'm serously inquiring here; what is the advantage of shooting the shoulder? My last buck - a very good sized 8 pt - was with a 50 ca;/ 240gr 44 cal sabot with the same powder load. Shot was behind the shoulder 1/3 of the way up. Bullet hit both lungs and clipped the top of the heart. Buck ran 30 yards and piled up. The year previous I hit the shoulder and had to track the buck for 2 1/2 hours. Also, i don't see the reason for the popularity with all of these "fancy" hollow point muzzle loader bullets. I shoot a .44 Nosler 240 grain JSP (rather than a JHP); the soft point expands PLENTY before passing through a deer. The lat 8pt buck I shot, the entry wound was .44 cal and the exit wound was the size of a quarter. As these bullets have always been through and throuhgs, I don't have any recovered bullets, but these I shot into wet newspirnt to get an idea of how they expand. 240 gr 44: 
I would think that a JSP would penetrate, especially through a shoulder than a JHP. Here is a 240gr recovered from wet newspirnt: 
As the exit hole in my last deer (only through heart and lungs, did NOT hit the shoulders) was the same diameter we can assume that the JSP exited the deer about the same size: 
And here is another: 
I can't see spending $1.75 a bullet for JHP when you can buy JSPs by the box at 50 (.44 reloading components) that do just as good of a job: |
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Man, I just discovered today this thread It is EXACTLY what I've been looking for. I have a 1/7 twist 16"bbl Spike's middy. I've tried several different cheaper rounds but they don't seem to be accurate worth a shit @ 100yds. Now. I'm going to try the TSX in 63gr & 70gr. I hope my rifle likes the 70's cuz I want the heaviest 223 rounf I can get that will penetrate deep & expand like crazy. Thanks for this great thread!
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Originally Posted By patriotoutlaw:
65gr. SGK-SBT. I've personally killed 52 does and several bucks with this rifle/bullet combo. My teenage son has killed several bucks with it as well. All shot kills, within 200 yds, as are most shots on Whitetail. I used Game King and they will do the job, but if you run them fast (3000fps) from 0 to 200yd they just might come apart if you go thru the shoulder I did not get a shot this year on a whitetail this year ( 62 ttsx these are all copper rounds) and they do one hell of a job on Pigs |