Posted: 8/14/2024 6:40:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Lancelot][Edited]
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A long long time ago, before the wind, before the snow, Jim’s Firearms in Baton Rouge had a sale on some barrels. Oh, how I wish I’d kept walking. I have twin boys. They’re really lucky on almost every level you can be lucky, other than not being able to tan. Tiger Mckee, may he rest in peace, started training them when they were 10 years old. Tiger helped select and assemble their carbines around then – they are 14.5” .625 lightweight carbines, and actually served as the prototypes/proof of concept for the Katana line he put together back when. Craddock Precision made those barrels – they were turned down from stainless match blanks and could have ended up in a High Power rifle if I hadn’t asked for skinny and light, and the shoot like it to this day. As a multi time graduate of Thunder Ranch and Shootrite, the concept of two is one and one is none is so deeply etched into me that I… had identical twins. So it would make sense for them to have identical-ish rifles as well, particularly as they have gotten old enough to hunt at night – the plan was to build duplicates for their thermal and NV. So, I see these barrels at Jim’s. They were 14.5” .625, retail was nearly $600 for the naked barrel, but they were around $400 and I was feeling froggy as they appeared to be exactly what I would have spec’d. They were advertised as – “The Battle Arms Ultramatch Lightrigid barrels feature a proprietary barrel contour & fluting. 416r stainless steel and 1-8 twist lend themselves to a superior shooting barrel. Cryogenically treated, magnetic particle inspected, double heat treat stress relieved and with multiple points of inspection, these barrels undergo a rigorous quality control process. Barrels feature ½-28 muzzle threads, mid-length gas systems, dimpled for gas blocks, polished chambers, .625" od at gas block, M4 feedramps, and 6-groove, ultra-precision button rifling 14.5" barrel weighs in at 23oz. Barrels are made in USA: Battle Arms Development inc. Specs: 416r stainless steel barrel. Lightrigid proprietary barrel contour & fluting. 1:8 twist. .625" gas block dia. Dimpled for gas block set screw. 1/2-28 muzzle thread. Mid length gas system. Polished chamber. Polished m4 feed ramps. Proprietary in-house manufacturing process. High quality rifle barrels by Battle. NOT MADE FROM 3rd PARTY BLANKS (Emphasis mine) Manufacturer item ID: BADBBL145LR62. ^^^^ Just about all of that turned out to be bullshit, or a least yield bullshit results. I wasn’t in a rush – the barrels sat in a drawer until I picked up some neat sequential builder sets, etc ad nauseum, Christmas rolls around and under the tree are two new 556 carbines. Come January, we get to the range and it was immediately obvious something was wrong. In an effort to zero them, at 50, I was getting 2-3” groups. At 100, my first effort was over 6”. I didn’t even bother figuring anything else out that first trip as we were shooting other stuff, but the next range trip was purposeful to understand what was going on. I shot them side by side with 55, 62, and 75 gr ammo and had a Noveske and Craddock as controls. They were atrocious. I called Battle Arms and told the story. My initial point of contact immediately told me that they’d had a bad run from their supplier in that time frame and that it was possible they were defective. To their credit, they could have just told me to pound sand as they were not involved in the assembly, but they said to send them in. The next year of this story is a painful example of what not to do. I have over 75 emails back and forth, so I have the receipts as the kids say. I think it is summed up in the email I sent to George, the owner, which is partially redacted out of some human courtesy to not name employees – “Greetings sir. I'm writing to bring to your attention an ongoing warranty issue with some BAD Ultra Match 14.5" 5.56/.223 Wylde barrels. I'm aware that the general shooting public often has issues due to a lack of capability, training or competence. I'll briefly say that I sit on the board of the Louisiana Shooting Association, I've competed in various shooting disciplines and have been to many of the premier firearms training schools in the country. I have a ranch south of San Antonio where my sons and I regularly take game with wild hogs as our primary target species due to their impact. I said that simply to say I have a baseline understanding of the mechanics and capabilities of the 556 carbine, and I own many of them. I bought your barrels with the goal of building some ultra light night rifles. Your marketing materials stated they were made with, among other things - Proprietary in-house manufacturing process Not made from 3rd party barrel blanks Multi-point quality control inspection 6-groove, ultra-precision button rifling for ultimate accuracy These were assembled for me by a gentleman with a track record of building capable High Power rifles. When we went to do the initial testing, the 50 yard zeroing results produced unusually large groups and at 100 we saw 6-8". A call to BAD led to me talking to XXXXX and XXXXX who asked some reasonable questions about bullet weight used etc. Ultimately I ended up shooting 55, 62, and 77 gr ammo out of them along side some other known barrels from Noveske and Craddock and the side by side led to me being told to send them in. XXXXX told me specifically that there had been a "bad run" due to some supplier issues, which seemed to contradict the "Not made from 3rd party blanks" but that's life, whether or not he was correct. XXXXXX said BAD would evaluate the barrels and replace them if they were determined to be defective. I sent the rifles in May of 2023. I always emphasized I wasn't in a rush as they were not immediately essential. On July 11, I got this from XXXX emphasis mine. "I took the uppers out to 100 yards on 4th of July. The grouping that I had on it was horrible, bad enough where I don't really want to show it. We're going to be replacing the barrels and I will be going back out this weekend to see if the new barrels are good. We're only able to test on our off days, so we're at the mercy of range availability. I do apologize for the delay, we want to get the results and the uppers back as soon as possible. Thank you, XXXXX" Rather than bore you with the other 45 or so emails that have gone back and forth since then - 1) I do appreciate that BAD recognized the issue and said they would replace the barrels. 2) We're approaching 8 months. While I wasn't in a rush, I did think we'd get to a resolution a little sooner. 3) I'm on my 3rd point of contact with XXXXXX. He sent me some pictures yesterday with caveats I've heard several times from BAD employees - I'm shooting in high winds - I've also been told there is limited range access, they used ACOGs (I'm a big fan, but not for confirmation of precision capability), and for the second time I've heard it was done in their personal time/day off. He also used PMC 55 ball. The photographic results were underwhelming. I don't think it is unreasonable to say that if BAD is going to hold itself out as a premium barrel manufacturer, I'd expect the capability to test barrels in a controlled environment with match ammo. I don't know another way to test capability. I do know testing in 15-25 mph winds by a relatively new employee who has recently been taught to assemble guns - XXXXXX seems very nice and has been nothing but helpful, but he's also been honest about that - that isn't how I'd expect barrels to be tested. I own premium 556 barrels from Kreiger, White Oak, Shilen, Noveske and Craddock of various lengths and widths and I understand what they can and can't do. All I'm looking for out of this is - per your ad copy - "ultimate accuracy". That doesn't need to be .25 MOA, but the groups sent, tested with PMC in high winds is, to be blunt, laughable at this point. XXXXX asked me if the results he sent me were acceptable. I'm asking you the same question. Best, Pangris” The reply – Mr. Pangris, First of all, we apologize for the issues you experienced with our original batch of barrels. Also, the amount of time it took to resolve your situation is not acceptable in my book. As for the accuracy results, I consulted my team and reviewed the targets, it appears the targets had "multiple groups" on there which makes the grouping look much greater. I hardly noticed the black pencil/pen circle they drew on the targets to indicate groupings. If you didn't notice that then the groupings look like are 6"+, which is unacceptable. The actual grouping was about 1" to 2" with the PMC ammunition, which is decent for that grade of ammo out of a 14.5" barrel. However, for accuracy tests like this, we should be using Federal Gold Match, Black Hills, or some other Match Grade ammunition for true performance results. Also, shooting in high winds is not ideal. We should have waited for another day to do this when the wind was calmer. It was 25+ mph the other day but still no excuse to be testing in that condition. What I will do for you is the following: 1. Make arrangements for a private indoor 100-yard range for controlled condition testing of your two uppers. This is not easy to find in Las Vegas so it is typically not an option for my team. 2. We will seek out and purchase match-grade ammunition for your testing 3. We will use a good optic for the testing, 6X, 8X or greater 4. I will have XXXXX, an ex-military sniper, to do the testing. This way we will get the true accuracy potential of these two uppers/barrels. We will send you 3-shot and 5-shot group photos of the results Please give us a few days to get this done as it is also crunch time before the SHOT SHOW so the team is spread a bit thin. Thank you for your continued patience. Sincerely, George This is where I made the mistake of thinking George had this. “Sir, I appreciate your timely response. You don't need to do this before SHOT. I am not in a bind for these, I'm lucky enough to have plenty to get me through. Thank you for addressing this. Your solution sounds appropriate. Best, Pangris” I followed up a couple weeks after SHOT and got this reply – “Hi Paul, XXXX will follow up with you on this as soon as we can. The initial testing of the barrels in the indoor 100-yard range was not satisfactory to me. We contact the OEM manufacturer of these replacement barrels to work out something. Once we have new replacements and are able to prove their performance, we will contact you again to get these uppers back to you. Thank you.” I told him yet again – I’m not in a bind, glad you’re making sure they’re up to spec, blah blah blah. I checked in about every 30 days and got shined on. Fast forward to May, a new employee says the words – “Ballistic Advantage”. I write George a new email… George, I called in and spoke with one of your guys on Friday. He told me Ballistic Advantage was still in the accurizing process. I understood you weren't making this round of barrels as your original ad copy indicated the ones I originally bought - however - I'm familiar with the various grades and capabilities of barrels and makers out there, and Ballistic Advantage isn't the quality of barrel that was represented. I feel like that should be obvious on its face. Not to belabor the point of why I tried BAD's barrels, but in addition to being ultralight, they were supposed to be ultra accurate and manufactured as below. I knew that I couldn't custom spec them to that for the price point from Craddock, Krieger won't make them that skinny, Noveske doesn't make them to order so I tried yours. We're now months past when you got involved and approaching one year since the uppers hit your shop. They arrived May 23rd, 2023. To be frank, if you're going to put a second rate barrel in my uppers and ship them back - please do not do that. Life's too short to wonder if it was the shooter or the gun. I'd rather you send back my parts without a barrel and I'll go buy the quality level I was hoping for in the first place and will chalk this up to a life experience. I've emphasized all along that I appreciated BAD taking these in, and that I wasn't in a rush. Now I'm emphasizing that it has been a year and we don't run trash barrels. If you don't feel like I should get what I paid for or a very, very similar facsimile that is your discretion at this point. A year is long enough to solve a simple problem. Put first tier barrels in there, or don't put in anything at all. Whatever you're going to do, please do it soon and ship my uppers back - with or without barrels, assembled or in pieces – ship to Pangris Somewhere Awesome Between Louisiana and Texas A few pointless emails later, I get a tracking number. A few days later, they show up with Ballistic Advantage barrels. They were .750, not .625 but I gave them a try. I can’t emphasize enough none of this is their fault and I’m not mad at them. Using their stated 5 rounds single fed or three out of a magazine, using a variety of ammo – one almost got to an inch with match ammo, the other didn’t, and I’m going to pull them out and send them back to BA per a conversation with them. Once they are replaced or blessed, they’ll be on Gunbroker as such (caveat emptor!) So, at the end of all this bullshit, life goes on. Along the way, Noveske had a sale and I bought two barrels. Craddock built them, they shoot lights out, the twins got their duplicates. Craddock also introduced their Grendel barrel named after yours truly in .625 – I can’t think of a more appropriate barrel to put in the original builds that were supposed to be an ultralight anyway, and they’ll make great general purpose hunting guns and maybe Christmas presents yet again. I tried to give Battle Arms every chance to just put in a couple decent barrels. At one point I thought they were going above and beyond, but at this point I just feel like they stole over a grand from me when you look at the cost of the barrels, the ammo, the time for the range trips, shipping etc. George is aware of how I feel and he decided to leave it how they left it. I can't figure out how to attach pics these days 
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| I have no idea who Battle Arms Development is. I looked around at their website and it is cringe..Nothing on there makes me think they sell high end barrels..At $400 you are in White Oak Armament , Krieger or Criterion neighborhood . All of whom are at the top of the barrel food chain. Am I missing something ? |
RIP Jeff Reed. Tennessee Squire, Ga. Carry member, NRA,Non-puking 72 ounce drinker 2 of 6 Norcal call sign, Forgotten.
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Originally Posted By SSeric02: Nobody is reading all that jibber jabber LOL. Why is this in tech? Originally Posted By CatBacker: For what it's worth, Battle Arms Development has a page in the Industry Forum, right up at the tippy top. Perhaps this thread should be there. Yeah,man. https://www.ar15.com/forums/Industry/Battle-Arms-Development/404/ |
Can't never could 'til try came along.
"All welchers should be removed from the EE".-Aimless
R.I.P. to the EE
"All welchers should be removed from the EE".-Aimless
R.I.P. to the EE
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Originally Posted By ThatGuyTheCooler: Cliff: he bought two super high end barrels from BAD that turned out to be garbage Ballistic Advantage barrels and had to wait a year Cliff notes are mainly correct. Although they were barrels of unknown origin that were replaced with Ballistic Advantage. I used to think Battle Arms was a reputable company who specialized in the ultralight realm and made good stuff. I was wrong. Hoping to prevent others from making the same mistake when building. |
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Originally Posted By pangris: Cliff notes are mainly correct. Although they were barrels of unknown origin that were replaced with Ballistic Advantage. I used to think Battle Arms was a reputable company who specialized in the ultralight realm and made good stuff. I was wrong. Hoping to prevent others from making the same mistake when building. I'd bet you they were BA contract barrels to begin with |
Member
Joined:
Jun 2023
Posts:
51
EE: 0% (0)
NV, USA
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To All (Especially Paul): First of all, I will confirm what Paul has said and experienced with our company. We royally screwed up with his particular situation, and there are no excuses, and I am fully responsible. I have reached back out to Paul again to find out what we can do to make him whole. We "manufactured" our barrels during an exclusive barrel manufacturing relationship between Northtech Defense and BATTLEARMS. These barrels are only done under our two brands and no others. We spent about two years working out the process with custom tooling to make highend precision barrels and the heat treat and cryo treatment recipe. There were many trials and errors in the beginning and many failures, some spectacular, as we experimented with new means and methods. The results of the finished products that passed our QC had been fantastic, equal to and above the tolerance and performance of many of the top brands. We had competition teams shooting our LIGHTRIGID barrels over an entire season and still get sub MOA after 10k rounds. The biggest problem was that we could not get enough barrels manufactured that passed our QC from Northech to meet demand, and we ended up eating a lot of subpar barrels, which cost us dearly. Due to these issues, we decided to stop manufacturing our Ultramatch grade barrels, focus on duty grade barrels, and work with companies like ROSCO and others to produce our firearms. Barrel manufacturing is an area that we will revisit again in the future and, this time, come back stronger than before. When Paul reached out to us for replacement barrels, we had already stopped production for years and did not have any replacement for him as it is a discontinued product. We tried to remedy the issue by replacing the barrels with match barrels we OEM'ed from Ballistic Advantage, thinking that was the end. However, it appears that the barrels we sourced also did not meet our or Paul's expectations. In our attempt to reach out to BA (now a multi month process), we have yet to receive an answer about the replacement, hence the stalled progress. Paul's recent email from June was missed by me and buried in my mountain of emails daily, and that's my fault. I have also been distracted by a ransomware issue for the past three months that caused major disruption to our operations. Again, none of what I said are excuses but simply what happened. The buck stops with me, and we intend to make things right for Paul. My apologies to Paul and anyone who did not receive their rightly deserved customer service from our company. We are growing and trying to hire and train the right people with the right attitude to represent our brand and customer service standards, but unfortunately, it will never be like the days when Roger (my ex partner) and I handled the daily issues personally. However, anyone can still contact me directly if there is an unresolved issue. Sincerely, George Huang President/CEO |