[ARCHIVED THREAD] - PA10 buffer length problem (Page 2 of 4)
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So....... Is the H2 now the correct buffer and not a H? Quoted:
Quoted:.... when i picked up mine, they had given me a H2 buffer, and a replacement buffer Detent spring. So....... Is the H2 now the correct buffer and not a H? unknown to me. I have the complete lower assembled, but not an upper yet. Some folks are reporting 1-2pm ejection versus others who report 3-5pm ejections with the standard buffer. Since i have both, i'll probably shoot a few with each to see which is best. |
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I bought a complete PA10 lower, the first day or two that they were available. I later bought an upper. It's still unfired. I checked the buffer, it's 2.5 inches. I contacted PSA And they are sending a new buffer and spring. when you get them in, im curious to see if they sent you a H2 or a standard.carbine .. |
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when you get them in, im curious to see if they sent you a H2 or a standard.carbine .. Quoted:
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I bought a complete PA10 lower, the first day or two that they were available. I later bought an upper. It's still unfired. I checked the buffer, it's 2.5 inches. I contacted PSA And they are sending a new buffer and spring. when you get them in, im curious to see if they sent you a H2 or a standard.carbine .. In my second build kit I ordered. I got an H buffer. The replacement I received day before yesterday was the PSA H buffer. I am wondering if the H2 buffers were sent out by mistake |
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You can take the tungsten weights out of the short buffer and mix and match them with the H or H2 to get whatever config you need.
H buffer is 2 steel and 1 tungsten weights H2 buffer is 1 steel and 2 tungsten weights H3 buffer is 3 tungsten weights So instead of anyone going off and ordering a H3 or H2 buffer, just swap some weights around and save $40 |
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I c wut u did thar. Quoted:
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i received an IM that the H buffer was the correct buffer wonder why i got an H2 then no idea either. Send them an IM GCO I c wut u did thar. I have always wanted to tell GCO to IM them for a resoulution 
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I have always wanted to tell GCO to IM them for a resoulution Quoted:
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i received an IM that the H buffer was the correct buffer wonder why i got an H2 then no idea either. Send them an IM GCO I c wut u did thar. I have always wanted to tell GCO to IM them for a resoulution i feel like im part of the make a wish foundation now. :) your wish has been Granted!!! |
| I got tired of waiting for PSA to ship me the correct buffer so I sacrificed the PSA buffer from one of my 556 AR's. The "normal" carbine buffer had 3 steel weights, which I replaced 2 of them with the heavier tungsten weights from the 308 buffer that was too short and damaged my lower. My hybrid buffer works fantastic, ejecting about 3-3:30 as opposed to 1-2 from before, oh and it doesn't damage my lower! Hopefully I will fill my deer tag tomorrow morning now that I have a running rifle. |
| Ok, well here's what I currently have. I did not buy the PSA lower build kit that included the longer carbine buffer and whatever buffer they seem to want to provide. I bought separately a standard carbine length buffer tube and a 4oz Tungsten short 308 DPMS type carbine buffer and chrome 308 buffer spring, 29 coils and about 11 3/4" long. I tested the combination by depressing the carrier all the way into the receiver/tube against the spring and buffer and the carrier stopped well short of making contact with the end of the buffer tube or the receiver with the tube screwed in to the correct position. It traveled far enough to easily be caught be the bolt catch and then some but nowhere close to the receiver or tube and it was fully bottomed out. At least between 1/8 to 3/16" room to spare. Since I really want to use a standard carbine buffer tube in this rifle, to enable using a Magpul fixed carbine stock I'm going to try running the rifle with that setup a few rounds to test reliable function. You can bet I'll be looking at the end of the tube and receiver after the first shot and several shots after that to make sure there's no contact. If I have to end up changing this setup I'll be going with a rifle length system with shorter rifle buffer and appropriate 308 rifle spring so I can run a fixed Magpul rifle stock. |
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Ok, well here's what I currently have. I did not buy the PSA lower build kit that included the longer carbine buffer and whatever buffer they seem to want to provide. I bought separately a standard carbine length buffer tube and a 4oz Tungsten short 308 DPMS type carbine buffer and chrome 308 buffer spring, 29 coils and about 11 3/4" long. I tested the combination by depressing the carrier all the way into the receiver/tube against the spring and buffer and the carrier stopped well short of making contact with the end of the buffer tube or the receiver with the tube screwed in to the correct position. It traveled far enough to easily be caught be the bolt catch and then some but nowhere close to the receiver or tube and it was fully bottomed out. At least between 1/8 to 3/16" room to spare. Since I really want to use a standard carbine buffer tube in this rifle, to enable using a Magpul fixed carbine stock I'm going to try running the rifle with that setup a few rounds to test reliable function. You can bet I'll be looking at the end of the tube and receiver after the first shot and several shots after that to make sure there's no contact. If I have to end up changing this setup I'll be going with a rifle length system with shorter rifle buffer and appropriate 308 rifle spring so I can run a fixed Magpul rifle stock. Same here I went with the dpms 308 buffer kit assembly from brownells, seems to work good dry without hitting tube, will report back after sighting in this weekend. |
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"Same here I went with the dpms 308 buffer kit assembly from brownells, seems to work good dry without hitting tube, will report back after sighting in this weekend"
Please DO post your results!! I won't be shooting mine any time soon since I got hosed since PSA didn't supply information about the proprietary parts needed in the their lower to even put it together. So, I'm stuck with a stripped lower waiting for their slow shipping time to get one of their proprietary and overly expensive LPK's. Double what it cost me for a DPMS kit without trigger. It sure would be nice to know if my setup is going to work before I bother even putting the thing together. If it does work it sure seems kind of stupid that they went with a longer carbine tube for no good reason except to make people think they needed to buy another proprietary part from them. Wanna' bet it works perfectly just like it does on a DPMS/LR platform. It's hard to imagine that it won't unless they are under sizing the gas ports on the upper. If it works, as they say, with a rifle tube, 308 rifle buffer and 308 rifle spring it should also work with the standard carbine tube, 308 carbine buffer and 308 carbine spring. What a revelation if it does!! It sure would simplify things for a lot of us....me for certain after investing in that fixed carbine stock. |
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"Same here I went with the dpms 308 buffer kit assembly from brownells, seems to work good dry without hitting tube, will report back after sighting in this weekend" Please DO post your results!! I won't be shooting mine any time soon since I got hosed since PSA didn't supply information about the proprietary parts needed in the their lower to even put it together. So, I'm stuck with a stripped lower waiting for their slow shipping time to get one of their proprietary and overly expensive LPK's. Double what it cost me for a DPMS kit without trigger. It sure would be nice to know if my setup is going to work before I bother even putting the thing together. If it does work it sure seems kind of stupid that they went with a longer carbine tube for no good reason except to make people think they needed to buy another proprietary part from them. Wanna' bet it works perfectly just like it does on a DPMS/LR platform. It's hard to imagine that it won't unless they are under sizing the gas ports on the upper. If it works, as they say, with a rifle tube, 308 rifle buffer and 308 rifle spring it should also work with the standard carbine tube, 308 carbine buffer and 308 carbine spring. What a revelation if it does!! It sure would simplify things for a lot of us....me for certain after investing in that fixed carbine stock. Will do, hope to get out to the range Saturday, gonna zero at 100yds and see how it groups out at 300yds. I feel your pain, I went thru the same thing with my lower, I ordered the dpms 308 lpk from brownells without trigger since I was going with a geissle to try and save some $. Lo and behold I couldn't use half of it, had to order the pa 10 parts kit anyway, so I am really hoping this dpms buffer kit works. |
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Well Here It Is........
The "Correct" H Buffer and the 27 Coils Spring. 
The beating that my PA10 took with the short buffer is showed on page 2 of this thread. The new 27 coil spring is much stronger than the spring that came with my kit (which I think was a standard carbine spring). The BCG now goes forward into battery with some real authority, much like any normal AR based firearm. Today at the range I put over 100 rounds of M80 ball ammo through the gun. Slow Fire, Controlled Pairs, Rapid Strings of 3-6 shots and the weapon ran without any issues. Extraction was very positive and the cases were ejected to the 3-4 o'clock position 8 to 10 feet away from the weapon. Before heading to the range I used a Sharpie to blacken the areas of the bolt and buffer tube than had shown contact as a result of the short buffer. Happy to report that there was no evidence of any impact of the BCG on the buffer tube using the H Buffer and the 27 coil spring. OH - - - and the Geissele fix for the SSA also works! Happy, Happy...., Joy, Joy! 
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Well Here It Is........ The "Correct" H Buffer and the 27 Coils Spring. http://i61.tinypic.com/nltxxk.jpg The beating that my PA10 took with the short buffer is showed on page 2 of this thread. The new 27 coil spring is much stronger than the spring that came with my kit (which I think was a standard carbine spring). The BCG now goes forward into battery with some real authority, much like any normal AR based firearm. Today at the range I put over 100 rounds of M80 ball ammo through the gun. Slow Fire, Controlled Pairs, Rapid Strings of 3-6 shots and the weapon ran without any issues. Extraction was very positive and the cases were ejected to the 3-4 o'clock position 8 to 10 feet away from the weapon. Before heading to the range I used a Sharpie to blacken the areas of the bolt and buffer tube than had shown contact as a result of the short buffer. Happy to report that there was no evidence of any impact of the BCG on the buffer tube using the H Buffer and the 27 coil spring. OH - - - and the Geissele fix for the SSA also works! Happy, Happy...., Joy, Joy!
same spring and buffer that came with my kit, i am also getting 3 to 4 o'clock 8-10 ft.i have 120 rounds through it and it has functioned flawlessly! |
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I will say, after the blunt and specific emails I wrote PSA Customer Service I was surprised to get a direct phone call from them today. I had a long discussion with CS Rep Cory and he explained some of the problems that have cropped up with their new system. Things like a rush to get the product on the market. He indicated that they are working as fast as possible with their Webmaster to get more information concerning the proprietary parts issues with their lowers and the confusion concerning the buffer system. He was very sympathetic to my problems and even offered to send me a shipping label to send everything back for refund. I explained after the $80 I have invested in DROS and CA registration that I would work at making this rifle work. Too much time and effort expended already
It seems that blk03shkr and I will be a test case on the functionality of using a standard length carbine buffer tube, shorter and heavier 308 carbine buffer and stronger 308 buffer spring. He had no idea if it was ever tested with those installed. He seems very interested in how the test turns out and wants to be written with the results so he can pass it on. I went ahead and ordered a PA10 QMS LPK since just that QMS trigger sells for $40 and the entire kit is only $5 more than the classic kit with the gritty mil spec trigger. The QMS trigger gets real good reviews on line and I can use it in one of my AR15's that has a gritty, nasty trigger in it. They say adding JP springs to the QMS will give you about 4.5# of clean trigger pull. I have JP springs in that one now and have never had the so called weak primer strike problem so often discussed with all the different I've shot in it commercial and mil spec. For now, After talking personally with them, I'm feeling a little better about this....so far. The proof is in the success though, and not just the talk. |
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whihc spring did you receive? the buffer detent spring? or the buffer spring itself? Quoted:
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I got my replacement buffer and spring from PSA today. It's a 3.25" H buffer (black). whihc spring did you receive? the buffer detent spring? or the buffer spring itself? Buffer spring, no marking on the packaging. |
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Buffer spring, no marking on the packaging. Quoted:
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I got my replacement buffer and spring from PSA today. It's a 3.25" H buffer (black). whihc spring did you receive? the buffer detent spring? or the buffer spring itself? Buffer spring, no marking on the packaging. interesting, they gave me a detent spring, not a buffer spring. |
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interesting, they gave me a detent spring, not a buffer spring. Quoted:
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I got my replacement buffer and spring from PSA today. It's a 3.25" H buffer (black). whihc spring did you receive? the buffer detent spring? or the buffer spring itself? Buffer spring, no marking on the packaging. interesting, they gave me a detent spring, not a buffer spring. 
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interesting, they gave me a detent spring, not a buffer spring. Quoted:
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I got my replacement buffer and spring from PSA today. It's a 3.25" H buffer (black). whihc spring did you receive? the buffer detent spring? or the buffer spring itself? Buffer spring, no marking on the packaging. interesting, they gave me a detent spring, not a buffer spring. me too. I need to check the length/coils on my buffer springs when I get home |
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me too. I need to check the length/coils on my buffer springs when I get home Quoted:
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I got my replacement buffer and spring from PSA today. It's a 3.25" H buffer (black). whihc spring did you receive? the buffer detent spring? or the buffer spring itself? Buffer spring, no marking on the packaging. interesting, they gave me a detent spring, not a buffer spring. me too. I need to check the length/coils on my buffer springs when I get home i think the 27 coil spring and h buffer is what it is supposed to be? that is what is in mine and it works fantastic |
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Guys, the AR-10 and 308 AR rifles have a longer action. The stroke is about 3/4" longer than an AR-15.
When it comes to buffers/stocks, you can use some AR-15 parts, but you must pair them with the appropriate 308 specific parts or bad things happen. You've got to account for that 3/4". PSA appears to be using a receiver extension that is 3/4" longer than the standard AR-15 carbine receiver extension, similar to ArmaLite and other makes. This compensates for the 3/4" longer stroke and that means that AR-15 carbine length buffers can be used. The short 2.5" buffers that you guys are getting are DPMS style 308 carbine buffers and are meant for use with standard AR-15 carbine receiver extensions - they're 3/4" shorter than an AR-15 buffer to compensate for the longer stroke of the action. When used in the longer ArmaLite style 308 AR receiver extensions, the result is exactly what you're seeing: Instead of the buffer bottoming out on the end of the receiver extension, the shoulder of the BCG slams into the lower and/or receiver extension. Not good! It's because you've double compensated for the 308 action stroke, you've added 3/4" to the receiver extension and subtracted 3/4" from the buffer. If you don't want to dick around with PSA customer service, here's what I'd recommend: Verify that you have the longer 308 receiver extension by comparing the length with a standard mil-spec AR-15 receiver extension. If you don't have one of those to compare to, the tube should be about 7 3/4" internally. If you've got the longer extension (and you probably do since it sounds like that's what people have been getting) then get an H or H2 or H3 AR-15 carbine buffer, and an ArmaLite 308 spring, part number EA1095. It's the one Slash recommends, I run it and it works good in my Mega with the appropriate parts. You can also use a Sprinco "RED" spring, or David Tubb's ARBUFSR spring. If it feels under-buffered with an H3, go with one of Slash's heavy buffers. Hope this helps. That really sucks that they just bought a bunch of parts marked 308, slapped them together and sent them to customers. What a cluster... ETA: If you want to shoot while you're waiting for the correct parts to come in, put about $3 worth of quarters in the receiver extension and then follow it with the spring and buffer that you have. |
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So, based on what you say here, if I choose to use a shorter DPMS/AR15 carbine extension tube with a DPMS style shorter buffer and DPMS style 308 buffer spring I should also be fine. I have compressed that setup to the bottom on the lower and the BCG does not come close to contacting the lower yet still will catch the bolt catch easily. It's short of contact by about 1/8". Thanks.
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Spart,
Thank You So Much for the detail explanation as to WTH is going on with the PA10 Buffer, Spring, and Tube! If there was ever a post that needed a stand alone sticky - - - yours is it. It now makes me wonder even more as to where this 27 coil buffer spring came from? D. Mark |
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You guys with damaged lowers. That's acceptable to you since it's PSA's fault? The pictures sure seem to indicate some pretty messed up lowers and buffer tubes. I not sure that would be acceptable to me. 
Im really pissed with my damaged lower, but its only cosmetic on a internal part. I don't think its really worth the hassle to get a new lower for something that will never be seen or impact function. They got me the (correct) replacement parts for free. Some additional reimbursement in the form of a $25 or so gift card would have been acceptable but really with how PSA can be, I am just happy to have a working rifle. What did I learn? NEVER buy something that PSA comes out with right away until OTHER people can be their QA lab rats. I was excited that they have a 9mm AR line, but its going to be a long long time until I feel comfortable buying one. |
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Spart, Thank You So Much for the detail explanation as to WTH is going on with the PA10 Buffer, Spring, and Tube! If there was ever a post that needed a stand alone sticky - - - yours is it. It now makes me wonder even more as to where this 27 coil buffer spring came from? D. Mark Dude, no problem. I did a ton of research on this exact topic before putting my 6.5 Creedmoor build together, so with all the confusion surrounding an obvious problem I thought some clarity was needed... ETA: for much, much more detail than you ever wanted on AR-10/308 AR stock systems, go here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_121/413443__308_AR_FAQ___Your_help_and_knowledge_is_requested_.html&page=6#i6663039 |
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I suppose you are not supposed to count the end coils. So, that means mine is a 27 coil spring 11 3/4" long. That, coupled with a LR 308 short buffer and standard buffer tube is what I intend to try. My spring actually came in a kit off eBay that included a chrome 308 heavy spring and Tungsten short 4oz (actually 3.8oz) 308 buffer. http://www.ebay.com/itm/151449223168?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
When depressed in the standard length buffer tube the carrier stops short of the receiver. The CS guy I talked to indicated his "former" boss pushed for the obviously premature release of the PA10. |
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Guys, the AR-10 and 308 AR rifles have a longer action. The stroke is about 3/4" longer than an AR-15. When it comes to buffers/stocks, you can use some AR-15 parts, but you must pair them with the appropriate 308 specific parts or bad things happen. You've got to account for that 3/4". PSA appears to be using a receiver extension that is 3/4" longer than the standard AR-15 carbine receiver extension, similar to ArmaLite and other makes. This compensates for the 3/4" longer stroke and that means that AR-15 carbine length buffers can be used. The short 2.5" buffers that you guys are getting are DPMS style 308 carbine buffers and are meant for use with standard AR-15 carbine receiver extensions - they're 3/4" shorter than an AR-15 buffer to compensate for the longer stroke of the action. When used in the longer ArmaLite style 308 AR receiver extensions, the result is exactly what you're seeing: Instead of the buffer bottoming out on the end of the receiver extension, the shoulder of the BCG slams into the lower and/or receiver extension. Not good! It's because you've double compensated for the 308 action stroke, you've added 3/4" to the receiver extension and subtracted 3/4" from the buffer. If you don't want to dick around with PSA customer service, here's what I'd recommend: Verify that you have the longer 308 receiver extension by comparing the length with a standard mil-spec AR-15 receiver extension. If you don't have one of those to compare to, the tube should be about 7 3/4" internally. If you've got the longer extension (and you probably do since it sounds like that's what people have been getting) then get an H or H2 or H3 AR-15 carbine buffer, and an ArmaLite 308 spring, part number EA1095. It's the one Slash recommends, I run it and it works good in my Mega with the appropriate parts. You can also use a Sprinco "RED" spring, or David Tubb's ARBUFSR spring. If it feels under-buffered with an H3, go with one of Slash's heavy buffers. Hope this helps. That really sucks that they just bought a bunch of parts marked 308, slapped them together and sent them to customers. What a cluster... ETA: If you want to shoot while you're waiting for the correct parts to come in, put about $3 worth of quarters in the receiver extension and then follow it with the spring and buffer that you have. thank you for this. very valuable info. I still dont know why PSA would send me a detent spring instead of a buffer spring. I havent shot my pa10 yet, so im not one with damage, but i do have the h2 buffer now, and teh pa10 tube. I may pickup one of the springs you mention now. |
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thank you for this. very valuable info. I still dont know why PSA would send me a detent spring instead of a buffer spring. I havent shot my pa10 yet, so im not one with damage, but i do have the h2 buffer now, and teh pa10 tube. I may pickup one of the springs you mention now. Quoted:
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Guys, the AR-10 and 308 AR rifles have a longer action. The stroke is about 3/4" longer than an AR-15. When it comes to buffers/stocks, you can use some AR-15 parts, but you must pair them with the appropriate 308 specific parts or bad things happen. You've got to account for that 3/4". PSA appears to be using a receiver extension that is 3/4" longer than the standard AR-15 carbine receiver extension, similar to ArmaLite and other makes. This compensates for the 3/4" longer stroke and that means that AR-15 carbine length buffers can be used. The short 2.5" buffers that you guys are getting are DPMS style 308 carbine buffers and are meant for use with standard AR-15 carbine receiver extensions - they're 3/4" shorter than an AR-15 buffer to compensate for the longer stroke of the action. When used in the longer ArmaLite style 308 AR receiver extensions, the result is exactly what you're seeing: Instead of the buffer bottoming out on the end of the receiver extension, the shoulder of the BCG slams into the lower and/or receiver extension. Not good! It's because you've double compensated for the 308 action stroke, you've added 3/4" to the receiver extension and subtracted 3/4" from the buffer. If you don't want to dick around with PSA customer service, here's what I'd recommend: Verify that you have the longer 308 receiver extension by comparing the length with a standard mil-spec AR-15 receiver extension. If you don't have one of those to compare to, the tube should be about 7 3/4" internally. If you've got the longer extension (and you probably do since it sounds like that's what people have been getting) then get an H or H2 or H3 AR-15 carbine buffer, and an ArmaLite 308 spring, part number EA1095. It's the one Slash recommends, I run it and it works good in my Mega with the appropriate parts. You can also use a Sprinco "RED" spring, or David Tubb's ARBUFSR spring. If it feels under-buffered with an H3, go with one of Slash's heavy buffers. Hope this helps. That really sucks that they just bought a bunch of parts marked 308, slapped them together and sent them to customers. What a cluster... ETA: If you want to shoot while you're waiting for the correct parts to come in, put about $3 worth of quarters in the receiver extension and then follow it with the spring and buffer that you have. thank you for this. very valuable info. I still dont know why PSA would send me a detent spring instead of a buffer spring. I havent shot my pa10 yet, so im not one with damage, but i do have the h2 buffer now, and teh pa10 tube. I may pickup one of the springs you mention now. GCO, what buffer spring did they send you to start with??? |
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so you got the long (PA10) tube and short buffer and regular spring? Quoted:
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GCO, what buffer spring did they send you to start with??? the one that came with the shorter buffer. so you got the long (PA10) tube and short buffer and regular spring? if the regular spring is the one that came with the original kit, then yes. that is correct. |