[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Filthy 14 is now over 40,000 rounds (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 11/15/2010 2:25:58 AM EDT
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Filthy 14 broke 40k this past weekend at the EAG Carbine 2 Course in Franklin TN.
#14 is a 16" Mid Length that has been used in EAG classes since we first received it. You rock BCM!!! http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7206084761/m/87120093563 http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/458100756/m/44520604563 |
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Strongly suggest you read the SWAT article about Filthy 14, or the multiple AAR's on LF.
They detail everything about Filthy 14. Short answer, broke bolt lugs around 16k, replaced extractor/ spring a few times, action spring a few times- all wear items. It went way past what i had believed realistic |
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SWAT article
The Fit and Finish crowd might want to skip this one. 
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Outstanding. And to think, a white glove wouldn't stay white even in the same room as that "biohazard"  rifle.
To reference some of the recurrent discussion of Vietnam era reliability problems in the LF thread, the biggest problem both before and after chrome lining was improperly cut chambers. If you think about it, the Vietnam era stereotypical malfunctions of stuck cases (failures to extract), failure to chamber and blown/separated cases are all classic symptoms of tight and/or rough chambers. That, and add in the fact that most were told that the rifle either did not need lube or were actually told to not lubricate it, which we now know doesn't work in an AR... add in corrosion in a tropical environment, and you have a recipe for failure. Changing the powder, chrome lining, etc are all minor factors comparatively to those big two (chamber and lubrication). Kudos to Pat and EAG for continuing to push the "white glove" cleaning nonsense out of the consciousness of as many as possible both in and outside the mil. |
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But, but, but, but, but, but.............. The fit? The finish? Pat, what you are saying couldn't possibly be the truth. We all KNOW that a gun can't run properly without perfect "fit and finish". The internet told me so, so it must be true.
But seriously though....Thanks for doing what you do and getting good info out to good people. Let the face shooting continue. Hopefully some day I'll be able to make it to one of your classes. |
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An NCO who shall remain nameless screwed me out of three rounds on the 500 a few months ago because he asserted that I'd "way over-lubricated" my rifle, which had caused it to "attract" sand and cause malfunctions. I now carry a copy of the 'Filthy 14' article in my day pack. Suffice it to say that this sergeant of Marines shall be educated, should he attempt to spout the "over-lubricated" nonsense again.
Semper Fi, sir. 
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Thanks for the report.
Pretty much what I have come to expect from an AR (not that I run mine that dirty) I have a hard time when some guy who has done a bunch of research on the internet tries to tell me that his piston gun is better than my AR . Buy and use whatever makes you happy but leave me alone with my "old" gun that has worked just fine for me! Not to knock your choice of lube (it clearly has worked fine) but I honestly would not expect results all that different with any other brand or combinations of brands. Many folks seem to get all excited over what brand of lube to use on a AR or other weapon but the common thing I see with guns that fail is little or no lube . I can't begin to claim the experience of Mr Rogers but just about every time someone at my club range comes to me with a problem AR I give them a squirt of whatever oil I have with me that day and a good mag with good ammo and surprise of surprises their gun is cured! |
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Quoted:
Thanks for the report. Pretty much what I have come to expect from an AR (not that I run mine that dirty) I have a hard time when some guy who has done a bunch of research on the internet tries to tell me that his piston gun is better than my AR . Buy and use whatever makes you happy but leave me alone with my "old" gun that has worked just fine for me! Not to knock your choice of lube (it clearly has worked fine) but I honestly would not expect results all that different with any other brand or combinations of brands. Many folks seem to get all excited over what brand of lube to use on a AR or other weapon but the common thing I see with guns that fail is little or no lube . I can't begin to claim the experience of Mr Rogers but just about every time someone at my club range comes to me with a problem AR I give them a squirt of whatever oil I have with me that day and a good mag with good ammo and surprise of surprises their gun is cured! I've helped out a number of new shooters who haven't yet figured out what the takedown pin is all about.  Hey, I was a n00b once too. Just ask me about the first time I tried to drop in the BCG...backwards...and thought I bought the wrong part because it wouldn't fit.
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I use the Filthy 14 article and thread as a reference to those who fall for all the misinformation in reagrds to the reliability of the AR..It shows that quality matters and just cause they all look the same, they are all not built to the same standards..I even had a friend swear up and down that his Keltec SU16 was a better choice than an "expensive" plain jane BCM..I invited him to join me in the Pat Rogers class I'm taking in Feb so he can run it to see how it will hold up..Guess we'll have to wait and see if that pans out..
Thanks Pat for proving the nay sayers wrong when it comes to QUALITY built AR based rifles... |
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Any word on accuracy changes?
I seen this in the article At 28,905 rounds, we finally cleaned Filthy 14.... We did run a patch down the barrel twice, but that was all. At 50 yards it still shoots two-inch groups, and we understand that it might not at 100 yards and beyond, but we are happy with the fact that, even at 50 yards, the gun is capable of tighter groups than most of the people running it. Hmm, I wonder if that 2in group was off-hand, or from a bench? I wonder what it would have done after cleaned up, and shot for groups on a bench @ 100yds? |
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Filthy 14 has 42770 rds downrange as of today.
If we get volunteers at the St Augustine FL class in Feb, it will have another 1500rds on it. Actually it is semi clean. It was so bad that it was contaminating other guns in the armory, so we actually cleaned it several thousand rounds ago. I was surprised at the longevity. Note that we haven't put a gage in it.Crane says that is wrong 60% of the time anyway. FN give s bbl life on the SCAR-L (a CHF bbl) as 20k. I have a tad over 20k on my SCAR and it is still shooting well. Filthy 14 is not a CHF bbl, so i am pretty surprised at how good it has held up. In the past, i dumped uppers on my personal guns at the 12k -15k mark. I'll salvage rails and sights, but otherwise the upper receiver, bolt and bbl go away. On the T&E guns we normally try for 20k (if they last that long- some die before that). If we are finished with the T&E we'll either send it back or buy it and put a new upper on it at some point. Bbl life is determined by a lot of issues. The firing schedule- a harsh sched will kill it a lot sooner Bbl length- short bbl's die much quicker. Crane says the Mk 18 service life (bbl) to be at 6k. Bbl material is also an issue. S&W- who used 4140 bbls, have only received 2 guns for worn out bbls. Lubrication The question is- does the mid length gas system shoot softer? Beats me. I don't have testing facilities or the background, and Filthy 14 is a sample of one. It is probably a number of reasons. There is no doubt that a gun built to specs will do better than one built to who knows what. And Paul builds great guns... There is also no doubt that SLiP 2000 EWL was a big reason. We run what could be considered a harsh schedule, so that is a wash. Having said that, we went to the CHF bbl's for a reason. We have a number of EAG carbines available for T&E at our classes and by the end of 2011 we should have a lot more data. I learn something new every day. But that is a recurring cycle, and anyone who does otherwise swims in a pool of stagnation. |
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Pat, How does one volunteer to use Filthy 14? I would love to shoot 'er a bit in the April class I'm going to. Although not the entire class, if possible, since one of the reasons I want to take the class is to test my own rifle's reliability and configuration. Thanks! |
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Brother- hit up this link
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/102101656/m/261103495 As a rule, we want the gun used for the entire class, otherwise we'd never get the rounds downrange that we need. However, if no one requests it, you are certainly welcome to run it for a few relays. If someone does request it, you might be able to work out a deal if he is on an opposing relay. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Filthy 14 is now over 40,000 rounds (Page 1 of 2)
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