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Posted: 2/11/2009 9:08:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Paul]
Some say that you can't own an AR-15 in California or own magazines more than 10 rounds. Wrong on both accounts. Though the efforts of some clever folk including inventors and lawyers there's more than a few ways to own the AR-15 in California.
Registered Assault Weapons - AR-15's weren't banned. Only the sale of certain "by-name" and then later "by-feature" rifles in a series of three laws. More AR-15 rifles were sold in California for the decades prior to the ban and tens of thousands of those rifles are legally registered with the state - pretty similar to full-auto weapons in other states. The sale of magazines with a capacity of greater than 10-rounds were also banned but the possession of existing magazines were allowed. Those magazines didn't require registration and can be repaired replacing any and all parts including the body legally. Off-list-lowers (OLL) - these lowers avoid the Roberti-Roo's list of rifles which means that they now are able to be used to avoid the "by-feature" restrictions. My OLL is made by CMMG - not on the Roberti-Roo's list. The methods below all use an Off-List-Lower. The MonsterMan Grip (MMG). The MMG avoids the "by-feature" qualification of a pistol grip by closing the section of the grip preventing the thumb from reaching around the grip. The legislation carefully defined what a pistol grip was and the MMG changes the pistol grip into one closer to the legal Springfield Armory M1A, the Ruger Mini-14 or Mini-30, and the Browning BAR semi-automatic rifles. The rifle is then constructed without the other named prohibited features which allows the use of existing pre-2000 full capacity magazines. The looks are a little odd but in use it's perfectly acceptable and doesn't fundamentally change the feel of the rifle. Since I have a bunch of pre-2000 magazines this is my default configuration. Here's a 10 round magazine. It you want a semi-automatic rifle you can buy as many 10-round magazines and use the MonsterMan Grip. A full-size pre-ban magazine. The use of either the MonsterMan Grip prevents one to put other features like a flash suppressor, forward pistol grip, or a collapsible stock on the rifle. Prince 50 Kit - The Prince 50 kit was one of the first methods of locking the magazine in place avoiding the feature of a "detachable magazine" - note the prohibition is against detachable magazines. We'll come back and look at that again here in a bit. The Prince 50 once installed is used with a 10-round magazine. The kit replaces the magazine release button with one that has a threaded hole into which one - or optionally two - small hex screws are put into. Once the replacement magazine release is installed the longer screw goes in first bottoming out against the lower receiver. The optional second screw can put put on top of the first locking it in place. A bit of Locktite can be used to hold the second one in place. The kit is provided with a small hex driver used to lock the 10-round magazine in place. Once locked in place I assembled the remaining portions of the rifle and tested it. To reload the magazine the rifle is "shotgunned" open. DO NOT USE THE HEX SCREW TO REMOVE THE MAGAZINE. If you loosen the screw you are creating a centerfire rifle with a detachable magazine at that point that does NOT need a tool to detach the magazine. Often an extended rear take-down pin is installed allowing one to open the weapon for reloading more easily. The Prince 50 allowed one to put other evil features onto the rifle as it changes the centerfire rifle with "detachable magazine" into one with a fixed magazine. If one leaves the state the provided hex tool removes the top hex screw and backs off the second far enough to allow the button to depress. Spring Retaining Block (SRB) - this is one of the most radical methods of allowing an OLL to be used. The SRB is a small bit of metal that screws in place of pistol grip holding the spring in place for the safety detent. The rifle is then able to use high-cap magazines but like the MMG no other named features can be used. One side benefit of the SRB is that lowers the vertical height of the rifle a bit making it easier to store in a cache tube. AR15Plus "kit" this is one of the most spartan methods of locking the magazine in place. Retail on this "kit" is nearly $40. It consists of a 9 round magazine - yeah you read that right, nine rounds, and a washer and crown nut. This kit wasn't functional enough for me to bother to install it and it ended up in the trash. The magazine uses a plastic bottom plate that sticks out from the bottom of the receiver by a bit. The "kit" The magazine. Bullet Button and Rad Lock are similar methods to allow for an attachable magazine. The law prohibits detachable magazines but not attachable ones. The use of a tool is required to remove the magazine once locked in place with either of these kits. The tip of a bullet is considered a tool so both allow for ones use. The Rad Lock is slightly different than the Bullet Button in that it allows you to simply un-screw a central threaded portion to return the weapon to normal function. DO NOT USE BOTH A MAGAZINE LOCK AND A NON-PISTOL GRIP LIKE THE MONSTERMAN WITH +10 ROUND MAGAZINES. Here's a close up of the tool and the part that turns to lock or unlock the magazine release. To lock the magazine in place simply turn the tool in the slot clockwise until the Rad Lock bottoms out against the gasket. To return the magazine release to normal function simply rotate the slot counter-clockwise four complete turns and the gasket rises slightly. The Bullet Button is slightly different in that the central locking portion doesn't sit as high as the Rad Lock but the opening in the button is larger so a wider variety of tools will work. With the Rad Lock I had to be firm with the tip of the bullet where with the Bullet Button the larger hole allowed for a quicker disconnect. A half a turn loose with the Rad Lock and the bullet tip worked well. Using either of these two buttons allows one to use 10-round magazines such as the 10/20 pictured below. The FreeLock Conversion Kit or the Bullet Button Wrench (below) will allow you to quickly unlock your Bullet Button equipped rifle for out-of-state use. The use of either the Bullet Button or Rad Lock allows one to put other features like a flash suppressor, forward pistol grip, or a collapsible stock. This list is not all inclusive as there are other methods like the U15 stock and other magazine release locking/blocking devices. None of these are CA DOJ approved but they are in use by thousands of folks. And finally a visual flow-chart to help if you're still confused. (courtesy www.CalGuns.net) |
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Celebrating the Second Amendment One Fine Firearm at a Time
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Great post Paul!
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There is no tactical problem that cannot be resolved through the judicious application of explosives.
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You did a very good job of explaining the options you have for a California Legal Rifle. Thank you.
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Originally Posted By RudyN:
You did a very good job of explaining the options you have for a California Legal Rifle. Thank you. Really just some of the options. I'm trying to encourage Californians and educate the out-of-state folks. |
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Celebrating the Second Amendment One Fine Firearm at a Time
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Dont forget the rimfire option. Build it with all the evil features but replace the bolt carrier group with a M261 .22LR conversion. It may be advisable to use a "multi" caliber marked lower. When you drive to nevada to shoot just remove the rimfire conversion and install a 5.56mm bolt carrier group.
For the really brave, or stupid. There is the just detach the upper from the lower option. a lower, regardless of configuration is not "semiautomatic" or "centerfire." |
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Needs some loving.
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Celebrating the Second Amendment One Fine Firearm at a Time
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Great thread. This may need to be a sticky.
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Bring enough gun.....
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raising the dead?
he's right Paul, how about a little updating and a sticky. LOL |
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We really need this type of thread/sticky on the AK/AKM pattern rifles too ...
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Originally Posted By Calgunner:
We really need this type of thread/sticky on the AK/AKM pattern rifles too ... Sorry I don't do commie weapons. |
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Celebrating the Second Amendment One Fine Firearm at a Time
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Originally Posted By Paul:
Originally Posted By Calgunner:
We really need this type of thread/sticky on the AK/AKM pattern rifles too ... Sorry I don't do commie weapons. Everyone has at least one SKS in the woodpile |
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Paul, you might clarify (unless I followed the chart incorrectly) that use of the Radlock or Bullet Button also allows use of a standard pistol grip - the photo of them with the Monster-man grip rifle gives the impression you still need the MM installed.
Edited to add - By the way, a photo tutorial for California law is a great idea! |
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"The closest to combat you will see is wrestling the last SlimJim away from a fat kid at Wal-Mart." - Mister44 in response to criticism of French soldiers in the 'Stan
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Originally Posted By Paul: Originally Posted By Calgunner: We really need this type of thread/sticky on the AK/AKM pattern rifles too ... Sorry I don't do commie weapons. |
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"YOU CAN OWN A HERD OF PURPLE MASTURBATING GERBILS IF YOU WANT"
Bwiese |
Originally Posted By DOA:
Then there is the solar tactical CA legal variety. Just use a regular OLL lower and no other feature and you may retain and shoot with your 10, 20, 30 or Beta mags. I tried to get a pistol grip for my FAL that would come close to working with that thing and after $75 worth of them I gave up. Now I'm afraid my collection of four different FAL pistol grips is going to grow into a collection of rifles. I contacted Solar Tactical and after a few months they replied back that a Penguin trap door grip would work ... yeah OK, now someone sell me one. I keep poking MonsterMan hoping that he'll make a quality one. |
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Celebrating the Second Amendment One Fine Firearm at a Time
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Originally Posted By fortunesfool223:
Paul, you might clarify (unless I followed the chart incorrectly) that use of the Radlock or Bullet Button also allows use of a standard pistol grip - the photo of them with the Monster-man grip rifle gives the impression you still need the MM installed. Edited to add - By the way, a photo tutorial for California law is a great idea! Yes this is true - NO NOT use a magazine locker with a non-pistol grip rifle. It is legal to use a magazine lock with a pistol grip rifle. It is legal to use a non-pistol grip rifle. BUT using both, a fixed magazine on a non-pistol grip rifle has only one purpose and that's for killing innocent babies as they sleep ever so peacefully in their cribs ... and therefore they are illegal. I bought five or eight different methods of CA compliance and ran them through my weapon and posted reviews on the ones worth the scratch. I have settled on the MonsterMan with my cache of detachable magazines. My magazine lock is un-locked and kept in the fully upright and stowed position, babies are safe. |
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Celebrating the Second Amendment One Fine Firearm at a Time
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Great thread bud, wish it was made when I first started my builds lol
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waiting for FO time.....
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"the tip of a bullet counts as a tool"
physically speaking you just need something to stick in there right? Does someone make a glove/finger attachment that can push in there? For example, I shoot an AR lefty and have been ejecting mags using my right thumb. If I strap some type of 'button' to my thumb I could just press that in there? |
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Psalm 91:7 A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you. [img]icon_smile.gif[/img]
<font color=blue>http://danpass.blogspot.com</font id=blue |
Originally Posted By danpass:
"the tip of a bullet counts as a tool" physically speaking you just need something to stick in there right? Does someone make a glove/finger attachment that can push in there? For example, I shoot an AR lefty and have been ejecting mags using my right thumb. If I strap some type of 'button' to my thumb I could just press that in there? You could - I've seen some wag use a velcro fingertip wrap with something like a thumbtack protruding. What you DON'T wanna do is attach something to the GUN - having the 'tool' hanging by a string, or magnetically attached to the BulletButton mag catch makes it part of the gun and likely not a separate tool for legal purposes. In fact, at CA gun shows there's this asshat selling "MagMagnets" aka 'felony buttons' that are little red magnetic things that go over the bullet Button so you don't have to use a tool and can just use your fingertip. Grossly illegal in CA. Bill Wiese San Jose CA |
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Originally Posted By Paul:
Originally Posted By fortunesfool223:
Paul, you might clarify (unless I followed the chart incorrectly) that use of the Radlock or Bullet Button also allows use of a standard pistol grip - the photo of them with the Monster-man grip rifle gives the impression you still need the MM installed. Edited to add - By the way, a photo tutorial for California law is a great idea! Yes this is true - NO NOT use a magazine locker with a non-pistol grip rifle. It is legal to use a magazine lock with a pistol grip rifle. It is legal to use a non-pistol grip rifle. BUT using both, a fixed magazine on a non-pistol grip rifle has only one purpose and that's for killing innocent babies as they sleep ever so peacefully in their cribs ... and therefore they are illegal. I bought five or eight different methods of CA compliance and ran them through my weapon and posted reviews on the ones worth the scratch. I have settled on the MonsterMan with my cache of detachable magazines. My magazine lock is un-locked and kept in the fully upright and stowed position, babies are safe. While you have the self proclaimed "California gurus" involved here in this thread, I don't think this is correct. There's no reason I know of why you cant LEGALLY use a monster man grip AND a bullet button. As long as the magazine holds no more than TEN rounds. -W |
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Originally Posted By wools10:
Originally Posted By Paul:
Originally Posted By fortunesfool223:
Paul, you might clarify (unless I followed the chart incorrectly) that use of the Radlock or Bullet Button also allows use of a standard pistol grip - the photo of them with the Monster-man grip rifle gives the impression you still need the MM installed. Edited to add - By the way, a photo tutorial for California law is a great idea! Yes this is true - NO NOT use a magazine locker with a non-pistol grip rifle. It is legal to use a magazine lock with a pistol grip rifle. It is legal to use a non-pistol grip rifle. BUT using both, a fixed magazine on a non-pistol grip rifle has only one purpose and that's for killing innocent babies as they sleep ever so peacefully in their cribs ... and therefore they are illegal. I bought five or eight different methods of CA compliance and ran them through my weapon and posted reviews on the ones worth the scratch. I have settled on the MonsterMan with my cache of detachable magazines. My magazine lock is un-locked and kept in the fully upright and stowed position, babies are safe. While you have the self proclaimed "California gurus" involved here in this thread, I don't think this is correct. There's no reason I know of why you cant LEGALLY use a monster man grip AND a bullet button. As long as the magazine holds no more than TEN rounds. -W EXACLY my thoughts.. i'm not 100% but doesnt the M1 garand have a fixed magazine? and its semi auto, and non-pistol grip? |
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Originally Posted By TheOTHERmaninblack:
Be an American, not an American't |
Originally Posted By bwiese:
Originally Posted By danpass:
"the tip of a bullet counts as a tool" physically speaking you just need something to stick in there right? Does someone make a glove/finger attachment that can push in there? For example, I shoot an AR lefty and have been ejecting mags using my right thumb. If I strap some type of 'button' to my thumb I could just press that in there? You could - I've seen some wag use a velcro fingertip wrap with something like a thumbtack protruding. What you DON'T wanna do is attach something to the GUN - having the 'tool' hanging by a string, or magnetically attached to the BulletButton mag catch makes it part of the gun and likely not a separate tool for legal purposes. In fact, at CA gun shows there's this asshat selling "MagMagnets" aka 'felony buttons' that are little red magnetic things that go over the bullet Button so you don't have to use a tool and can just use your fingertip. Grossly illegal in CA. Bill Wiese San Jose CA I saw that asshat at one of the Ventura County gunshows and just shook my head at him. |
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My cousin from OK is planning on making a move to CA for work. The list of named receivers goes like this:
DPMS: Panther (all) His rifle says "DPMS A-15" Is this an OLL that can be reconfigured to comply with SB23? |
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Freedom and Justice come out of a box. Sometimes it is a Jury box. Sometimes it is a Ballot box. Other times it has to come from a Cartridge box!
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Check the post at the top of the forum with the facts and cross referenced (and as best as we have) authoritative sources.
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Celebrating the Second Amendment One Fine Firearm at a Time
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Originally Posted By Mall-Ninja: My cousin from OK is planning on making a move to CA for work. The list of named receivers goes like this: DPMS: Panther (all) His rifle says "DPMS A-15" Is this an OLL that can be reconfigured to comply with SB23? Legally it is an OLL, but does he want a lot of hassles over a $60-100 part? It becomes a technical legal question that LEOs are most likely incapable of dealing with, and instead might default to seizure and arrest. There are now one or more Colt receivers which have been renamed and are now legal but I don't think it's worth it for now. The same goes for PWA (all), it's officially not listed, but you can potentially see legal issues. Choose your battles. Purchase him a new receiver as a welcome gift. |
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"We will always remember. We will always be proud. We will always be prepared so we may always be free." Ronald Reagan 1984
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OK cali guys, a few questions on all of this.
My brother's AR's have liven in my safe for more than a decade. It appears that he could enjoy them at his home in CA once again, if the lowers were replaced with a brand name that does not appear on any CA list. I spent a bunch of time reading on CALGUNS, but there is just so much implied knowledge I get lost. I read the flow chart, and get the work around with the Monster grip. In fact, I like the idea, it is much like the FG42 grip angle. Where I get lost is in the 12276 part of the flow chart. Specifically, the "Flash Hider" part. Does this mean no muzzle threads? Or is a threaded brake OK? I have brakes that are too large to slip a grenade on - will that do? My brother can go buy an "OLL", and he can leave his stripped Colt lowers in my safe. Sounds great. I just want to get his uppers into the proper configuration for him. Thanks Lem |
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Bump.
Anybody? The other thread ("is it legal") turned into a magazine thread, with no mention of the muzzle device too - huh? Did I miss some glaring obvious page someplace? Thanks. Lem |
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Originally Posted By Lem:
My brother's AR's have liven in my safe for more than a decade. It appears that he could enjoy them at his home in CA once again, if the lowers were replaced with a brand name that does not appear on any CA list. I spent a bunch of time reading on CALGUNS, but there is just so much implied knowledge I get lost. I read the flow chart, and get the work around with the Monster grip. In fact, I like the idea, it is much like the FG42 grip angle. Where I get lost is in the 12276 part of the flow chart. Specifically, the "Flash Hider" part. Does this mean no muzzle threads? Or is a threaded brake OK? I have brakes that are too large to slip a grenade on - will that do? My brother can go buy an "OLL", and he can leave his stripped Colt lowers in my safe. Sounds great. I just want to get his uppers into the proper configuration for him. Lem, Quick summary, and assuming the lower is off-list/not banned by name: 1. if the gun has a MonsterMan grip and detachable magazine, it can have no other 'evil features' (flash hider, telestock, thumbhole stock, pistol grip, etc.). This configuration is commonly called a "featureless" build, and alternatives like the California Rifles U15 stock and the Exile Machine stock adatper also produce legal configurations if again no other evil features are attached. 2. Threaded barrels are NOT controlled on any rifles in CA. That was really only a concern on the now-expired 1994 Fed AW ban. Replace flash hider with thread protector or muzzle brake - no perm attachment needed, unless it's to get the barrel up to 16" min length. (NB: threaded bbls DO trigger AW status on semiauto pistols!!) 3. You can have all evil features (FH, pistol grip, telestock) on a semiauto centerfire rifle if the rifle has a nondetachable magazine; the "BulletButton" mag lock device that makes the mag only removable with a tool (a bullet tip, screwdriver tip, pen tip, etc.) legally renders the gun to not have a detachable magazine even though it's removable, due to definition wording in regulatory code. Do NOT use a magazine over 10 rounds in this mag-locked configuration or you can trigger an alternate definition of AW. 4. Rimfire rifles are exempt from CA SB23 generic AW laws. (Rimfire pistols are not, however.) 5. All semiauto centerfire rifles in CA must have a minimum overall length of 30", not the usual 26". Due to an odd CA court decision (People v. Rooney), the overall length is measured with any folding or telescoping stock CLOSED [even though Federal overall length standards are more leniently measured with the stock opened.] 6. He can strip his uppers off and remove some stocks from his lowers and then build up his new off-list recievers into rifle configurations per 1/2/3 above. Regards, Bill Wiese San Jose CA |
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Thanks Bill, the muzzle thread was where I was stuck.
The rest of it was pretty clear, he will be going with the Monsterman grip so he can use his mags. Lem |
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Thanks for the help around here Bill. Hard to try to clear up all the bad information sometimes. Nice to have you, Paul, and those that really know what's good to go.
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Bring enough gun...
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Raised from the dead!
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Celebrating the Second Amendment One Fine Firearm at a Time
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