Posted: 9/11/2019 5:07:30 PM EDT
Test Gun: S&W M442 Barrel length: 1 7/8 inches. Ammunition: Winchester .38 Spl 158gr LSWCHP. Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel. Distance: 10 feet. Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2. Five shot velocity average: 778fps Gel Temperature 74 degrees. I didn’t realize it but its been almost two years since I did a .38 Spl. test. While digging through some stuff today I came across a box of some Winchester 158gr LSWCHP’s that I’ve for a few years now. It’s been some time since I have carried a snub nose but when I did it was with this load(AKA the FBI load). I have owned this M442 for about 25 or so years and put thousands of rounds through it. But when I picked up my first sub-compact 9mm that all change and it’s been at least 6 years since I have carried one. If the truth is known I could never shoot well but sometimes it was necessary to have something a little smaller than my normal carry pice, a Glock 19. I guess what I’m trying to say is there is a reason the 5-yard group below sucks. I got a five-shot average velocity of 778fps with a high of 786 and a low of 774fps. 
The first round into the bare gel had a velocity of 775fps and penetrated to 20.5 inches. The expansion was .39 inches and recovered weight was 157.9 grains. Round two also penetrated to 20.5 inches and expanded to .38 inches with a recovered weight of 156.7 grains. Its velocity was 768fps. 
Through the covered gel, both rounds were clogged with the clothing and passed through both gel blocks and were found laying on the floor. The recovered weights were 157.6 and 157.7 grains. The velocity of the two rounds was 757 and 775fps. There was no expansion of either round. 
https://generalcartridge.wordpress.com |
| Thank you for testing those and if I ran a .38 revolver I would chose a different load. Were these considered decent loads back in the day? |
You KNOW it's going to be an "Interesting" Job when you see the 5 Gal tub of Anal-ease with a popsicle stick sticking out of it and a VERY frightened looking gerbil hiding in his cage. AJK07734
| I use Remington 158 grain LSWCHP in my 4” S&W model 15. Even if shot out of 1 7/8” J frame you put those in the right place they’ll have enough penetration to get the job done. That load was also known as the Chicago load. When CPD adopted these NYPD was still carrying 158 grain lead SWC and LAPD was carrying 158 grain RNL. There not fancy but they worked about as well as could be expected out of 38 Special. |
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While there are better loads, they aren't horrific out of a service length barrel. If they plug, they are still a SWC. If they expand, the testing I've seen generally shows that they will penetrate to sufficient depth. Just not a great barrier load because of the soft lead. I think alot of their aura comes from old cops shooting them out of service length guns, but still buy and carry it with snubs because that's what they were issued.
For lead softness (and subsequent expansion in shorter barrels) with these SWCHP loads: Remington > Winchester > Federal The Federal version of that load might as well skip the hollow part and just be a harder cast SWC... They are VERY firm lead. I have no problem carrying SWC but SWCHP had their time and there are FAR better choices now, FINALLY, and ones tailored to snub noses! |
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Originally Posted By FiremanFrank: Thank you for testing those and if I ran a .38 revolver I would chose a different load. Were these considered decent loads back in the day? |
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Originally Posted By Derek45: I carry HST in mine https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/6/6/testing-the-38-special-cartridge/ |
HST
 Federal HST Micro 130gr 38 Special +P Ballistic Gel Test (HD) |
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Originally Posted By StevenH:
How long are your gel blocks? ETA: thanks for the test. Confirms I was on the right track shooting up the last of mine as practice ammo and buying a case of Winchester Ranger 130 Gn bonded JHP (RA38B) 
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Originally Posted By Derek45:
HST https://loungecdn.luckygunner.com/lounge/media/38-hst-expanded-bullets.jpg  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgGjNQ_hhIQ |
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Originally Posted By Melvin_Johnson: Doesn't quite make 12" in organic gel. HST -11.25 / 11.75 hornady - 11.375 / 13 maybe I need more coffee, Am I missing something ? 
A couple of other things I like about the HST, it's shorter and easier to use a J-frame speedloader,. .. . .and if it fails to expand, it's still like a cookie cutter wadcutter 
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It didn't do it in my test either, the most I got was 11.75 inches. I suspect that the gel blocks, Mr gunsngear used, were allowed to heat up in the sun giving him exaggerated penetration depth. https://generalcartridge.wordpress.com/2017/11/20/federal-38-spl-p-130gr-hst-in-clear-ballistics-gel/ |
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Originally Posted By Derek45: neither does your choice ? HST -11.25 / 11.75 hornady - 11.375 / 13 maybe I need more coffee, Am I missing something ? https://assets.americanrifleman.org/media/3148404/ammo_38_chart_lcr.jpg?width=842&height=640 A couple of other things I like about the HST, it's shorter and easier to use a J-frame speedloader,. .. . .and if it fails to expand, it's still like a cookie cutter wadcutter Few of the 38 or 38 +p loads really work too well from 2" barrels. But I guess ease of carry is the determining factor with these guns. |
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Originally Posted By Derek45: I carry HST in mine .https://loungecdn.luckygunner.com/lounge/media/HST-pulled-bullet.jpg |
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Originally Posted By Melvin_Johnson:....Few of the 38 or 38 +p loads really work too well from 2" barrels. But I guess ease of carry is the determining factor with these guns. My 642 is my walk out to the mailbox gun If I have to go to the city, I'm wearing an M&P . |
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Originally Posted By 5pins:
16 inches. Originally Posted By 5pins:
Originally Posted By StevenH:
How long are your gel blocks? ETA: thanks for the test. Confirms I was on the right track shooting up the last of mine as practice ammo and buying a case of Winchester Ranger 130 Gn bonded JHP (RA38B) |
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Originally Posted By Melvin_Johnson:
I think I'd take a 357 Mag (still struggles to make 12" with some loads) or a 327 Fed Mag over pretty much anything in 38. Originally Posted By Melvin_Johnson:
Originally Posted By Derek45: Yep My 642 is my walk out to the mailbox gun. Even a 158 swc at 1000fps would be a pretty good snubby load though. |
"If you cant do something smart, do something right"
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Originally Posted By 03RN:
Especially in a barrel under 2". Some loads in a 4" gun is a different animal though. Even a 158 swc at 1000fps would be a pretty good snubby load though. Originally Posted By 03RN:
Originally Posted By Melvin_Johnson:
Originally Posted By Derek45: Yep My 642 is my walk out to the mailbox gun. Even a 158 swc at 1000fps would be a pretty good snubby load though. |
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Originally Posted By StevenH: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/128204/25E23940-820C-43A1-A13E-215A3994E586_jpeg-1091193.JPG 158gr swc-wn over 13.5gr 2400 |
"If you cant do something smart, do something right"
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Here's a little bit of gel data on a 148 full wadcutter and also the Remington 158 +P
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?31785-38-Special-Lead-Bullet-Gel-Test/page4&highlight=special |
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I don’t know how many times someone said ” try it with a 4 inch, a 4 inch, a 4 inch” Ok, here it is out of a 4-inch S&W 686 .357. Two round in bare and two in the clothed gel. The first round in the bare gel had a velocity of 830fps and penetrated to 17.5 inches. The recovered diameter was .47 inches and the recovered weight was 157.1 grains. Round two’s velocity was 824fps and penetrated to 17.25 inches. The recovered weight was 156.4 inches and expansion was also .47 inches. 
Through the heavy clothing, the first round’s velocity was 812fps and it penetrated to 18 inches a recovered weight of 156.8 grains. Round two’s velocity was 778fps and it’s penetration was 26 inches and weighed 157 grains. Neither bullet showed any expansion. 
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Originally Posted By Melvin_Johnson:
What about the Buffalo Bore version? Originally Posted By Melvin_Johnson:
Originally Posted By 5pins:
I don’t know how many times someone said ” try it with a 4 inch, a 4 inch, a 4 inch” Ok,... Or Underwood. Softer bullet. Driven faster |
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Originally Posted By psegnatelli:
Exactly. Or Underwood. Softer bullet. Driven faster With that said, if the velocity is high enough the bullet will have more "juice" to push itself deeper into the block. Or it could open so violently that the bullet will fracture and break apart. Lead can be a good hollowpoint material but I think it is also pretty unpredictable. The perfect expansion window can be much smaller than that of a modern jacketed hollow point. |
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Originally Posted By Derek45: I carry HST in mine .https://loungecdn.luckygunner.com/lounge/media/HST-pulled-bullet.jpg |
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https://rimrockbullets.com/xcart/g-ch-38-357-158-gr-swc-hp-per-100-in-a-plastic-ammo-box.html
Here's the actual Buffalo Bore bullet. Gas checking is fairly labor intensive and adds to the cost but these are simply too expensive. https://www.montanabulletworks.com/shop/page/2/?filter_caliber=357 Another cast hollowpoint option. I can see how the thinner walls at the edges of the pentagon might help the bullet expand. Or it could just create weak points that will break off immediately. |