You Must Be Logged In To Vote
Joined:
Apr 2025
Posts:
117
EE: 0% (0)
USA
Posted: 6/11/2026 1:22:02 PM EDT
| Why are people talking about thumbs up so much lately? Thumbs down has always been better even in one hand firing. |
|
Are you talking about firing hand or support hand? As far as firing hand, thumb up while bringing the support hand in contact with the gun allows more of your support palm to contact the grip. Then once you get your support hand palm firmly in contact with the grip, the firing hand thumb can do whatever you need (disengage the thumb safety or just wrap it around the support hand). If not disengaging a thumb safety, (and after the support hand is firmly in place) I try to push the firing hand thumb as far forward as possible to tighten my firing hand palm on the rear of the gun. As far as support hand thumb, I'm on the fence. I like a good rest for the thumb, but not all guns have that. From what I've been reading and hearing, the support hand thumb position really doesn't help mitigate recoil much. You're better off concentrating on firing hand and support hand finger and palm pressure. Some folks do like to point with their support hand thumb, but that can weaken your wrist bone alignment (straight lines are strong, angles are weak). Of course we are all built differently so YMMV. |
|
Originally Posted By Sabre223: Thumbs forward. No two thumbs are alike. Unless you are shooting a revolver... to have the thumbs down away from cylinder gap! |
So... I find comfort in the fact that if Trump has to work so hard to go to Heaven, then there is a shit load of Democrats that have no f-cking chance to go anywhere but HELL. Sometimes it is entirely appropriate to kill a fly with a sledge-hammer.
|
Originally Posted By KorneoDahGreat: Why are people talking about thumbs up so much lately? Thumbs down has always been better even in one hand firing. Agreed. But you forgot the third option of support thumb forward, which personally think is bad technique, but each their own. |
|
The 1911 is beloved because riding the thumb safety helps with control of the pistol. Gas pedals are getting popular because they help with control of the pistol. Yet both camps will sit there and say the other is stupid. Get a both thumbs on frame gun and re-evaluate. Once I got accustomed to controlling my pressure, I saw significant gains in my rapid fire accuracy. Pretty basic mechanics in my eyes. Using both thumbs to help control muzzle rise versus just squeezing, I’m not even sure how it’s an argument. This will become even more popular as pistol lights progress towards high weak hand toggle operation instead of low rotary switches. This is my cheapest and most gaudy pistol and it’s just a range toy, but it’s the gun I shoot best and it’s not even close. Glock grip angle + palm pad + thumb rests makes this cheap POS an absolute laser. Attached File |
|
Originally Posted By NN300BLK: Agreed. But you forgot the third option of support thumb forward, which personally think is bad technique, but each their own. Why do you say that? Just curious, I was always taught (several schools) with thumbs forward (ignore the girly hands  ): Poll is missing a third option: thumbs forward  ROCK6 |
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants" - Thomas Jefferson
|
Originally Posted By ROCK6: Why do you say that? Just curious, I was always taught (several schools) with thumbs forward (ignore the girly hands ):https://www.agirlandagun.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/TTT-CorrectSemiAutoGrip.png ROCK6 A wrist straight inline with the forearm takes advantage of bone structure strength. An angled wrist forces muscles and tendons to do the work (and your smallest arm muscles at that). Muscles tire, bones don't. Muscles flex, bones don't. As long as your wrist bones are inline, you can do what you want with the thumb. If you have a gas pedal or thumb rest then take advantage of it. If you want to point with your thumb, go for it. Just don't sacrifice bone structure strength and mechanical advantage for it. |
|
Originally Posted By -OdieGreen-: The 1911 is beloved because riding the thumb safety helps with control of the pistol. Gas pedals are getting popular because they help with control of the pistol. Yet both camps will sit there and say the other is stupid. Get a both thumbs on frame gun and re-evaluate. Once I got accustomed to controlling my pressure, I saw significant gains in my rapid fire accuracy. Pretty basic mechanics in my eyes. Using both thumbs to help control muzzle rise versus just squeezing, I’m not even sure how it’s an argument. However, sometimes it depends on the gun. Look at the suboptimal ergonomics of a standard P226 for example. You can't use your firing hand thumb to help you because the slide lock lever is there. You can't really expect your support hand thumb to do anything useful because it's just a smooth slab side on the frame. You do have a big grip, so that's all you have to work with. A lot of OEM handgun frames are suboptimal. It's only fairly recently that the manufacturers have started to incorporate some good ergonomic features to control recoil. |
| Thumbs up, but my thumbs aren't on the gun so that's just where they ended up. As mentioned, it allows me to get more of the support hand on the grip. Shooting 1911s and 2011s a lot contributed. |
Make sure you tell guys that the 1911 is a pain in the ass - Larry Vickers
|
Originally Posted By dmk0210: I'm not disagreeing with you. I believe in using every advantage you can. However, sometimes it depends on the gun. Look at the suboptimal ergonomics of a standard P226 for example. You can't use your firing hand thumb to help you because the slide lock lever is there. You can't really expect your support hand thumb to do anything useful because it's just a smooth slab side on the frame. You do have a big grip, so that's all you have to work with. A lot of OEM handgun frames are suboptimal. It's only fairly recently that the manufacturers have started to incorporate some good ergonomic features to control recoil. I completely agree. I own a P226 and it shoots good, but I can’t shoot it fast nearly as well as other guns. European guns (and even some US ones) still haven’t fully evolved from the days of heel mag releases and tea cup grips. Even today they still have thumb rests that serve absolutely no purpose unless you’re going one handed or tea cup. Same reason some of them place the slide stop so far back. They’re piggybacking off having no comprehension of using your thumbs for anything meaningful other than the slide stop and mag release. I’ll pick on my own go to Glock as example. Who at Glock after 1984 really thought anyone was putting their thumb here? Attached File |
|
Originally Posted By -OdieGreen-: I completely agree. I own a P226 and it shoots good, but I can't shoot it fast nearly as well as other guns. European guns (and even some US ones) still haven't fully evolved from the days of heel mag releases and tea cup grips. Even today they still have thumb rests that serve absolutely no purpose unless you're going one handed or tea cup. Same reason some of them place the slide stop so far back. They're piggybacking off having no comprehension of using your thumbs for anything meaningful other than the slide stop and mag release. I'll pick on my own go to Glock as example. Who at Glock after 1984 really thought anyone was putting their thumb here? https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/61399/Photoroom_20251219_133115_jpeg-3778225.JPG |
Make sure you tell guys that the 1911 is a pain in the ass - Larry Vickers
|
Originally Posted By Bradd_D: The thumb rest was a requirement to have the required number of points to be allowed importation. It's not there to be used. It's probably on the US guns because it wasn't worth removing. Still lots of US made and designed guns doing it. |
|
Originally Posted By -OdieGreen-:Still lots of US made and designed guns doing it. Certainly new ideas ( and by new I mean shooting concepts from within the last 20 years) aren't penetrating that deeply into the manufacturing, especially the europeans. On the other hand we have just about every company making guns sticking comps in every model line. |
|
This thread should have ended here. But this is a rifle site and most of them are not handgun proficient. Realistically, most of them are not rifle proficient either but that is another thread. |
|
Originally Posted By ROCK6: Why do you say that? Just curious, I was always taught (several schools) with thumbs forward (ignore the girly hands ):https://www.agirlandagun.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/TTT-CorrectSemiAutoGrip.png Poll is missing a third option: thumbs forward ROCK6 Originally Posted By ROCK6: Originally Posted By NN300BLK: Agreed. But you forgot the third option of support thumb forward, which personally think is bad technique, but each their own. Why do you say that? Just curious, I was always taught (several schools) with thumbs forward (ignore the girly hands ):https://www.agirlandagun.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/TTT-CorrectSemiAutoGrip.png Poll is missing a third option: thumbs forward ROCK6 @ROCK6, I think it's bad technique only because it is potentially dangerous on a revolver and because it works better on some pistols than others. Thumbs down or up, I can grab an Echelon, 1911, or revolver and it's fine. Thumbs forward not so much. With the Echelon, it works really really well. With a 1911, it kind of works if you avoid the slide stop. With the revolver, the cylinder gap might be a big issue. So, thumbs forward is kind of a cheat code on the right pistol, but an issue with others. |
|
Originally Posted By NN300BLK:So, thumbs forward is kind of a cheat code on the right pistol, but an issue with others. |
|
Originally Posted By dmk0210: Personally I think it was developed for Glocks due to the extreme the grip angle / grip hump. I've seen Glock shooters say they use their offhand thumb to point at the target. The 1911 thumb safety created the concept. It just took almost 100 years for people to realize both thumbs can contribute to pistol control. I will say that in combination with the Glock grip angle one can really get a good controlled pace going. |
|
Originally Posted By -OdieGreen-:The 1911 thumb safety created the concept. It just took almost 100 years for people to realize both thumbs can contribute to pistol control. I will say that in combination with the Glock grip angle one can really get a good controlled pace going. That's interesting. I've never noticed anyone shooting a 1911 with an offhand thumb forward (probably saw it but just didn't notice). Any time I've seen someone actually proposing the technique it's been with a Glock. But then again, you can't throw a rock and not hit someone proposing some shooting technique while shooting a Glock. |
|
Originally Posted By dmk0210: That's interesting. I've never noticed anyone shooting a 1911 with an offhand thumb forward (probably saw it but just didn't notice). Any time I've seen someone actually proposing the technique it's been with a Glock. But then again, you can't throw a rock and not hit someone proposing some shooting technique while shooting a Glock. I usually shoot the 1911 with thumbs down, not resting on safety. I have mediumish hands (wear medium or large gloves depending on maker or task) and I've never had an issue with engaging the safety during recoil. I trust tried thumbs forward on a 1911 and I can do it without touching the slide stop, but someone with small hands might struggle with that. Now that I think of it, I think I have tried it before at the range, but did not notice a huge benefit, but there's not much of a ledge to get a hold of forward of the slide stop/takedown pin on a government frame. |
|
Originally Posted By dmk0210: That's interesting. I've never noticed anyone shooting a 1911 with an offhand thumb forward (probably saw it but just didn't notice). Any time I've seen someone actually proposing the technique it's been with a Glock. But then again, you can't throw a rock and not hit someone proposing some shooting technique while shooting a Glock. Off hand, no. But the point being it’s wildly odd that almost 120 years ago people realized their strong hand thumb leveraging the frame helped with pistol control, and only recently has it clicked for anyone it might be a good idea for the weak hand too. The first “gas pedal” I ever saw was back in 2002 or so. A family friend and very successful regional competitor had a Para double stack that was drilled for a C-More mount that had a thumb ramp on the back of it. It was relatively crude but he didn’t make it. Not sure who did. |
|
Originally Posted By -OdieGreen-: Off hand, no. But the point being it’s wildly odd that almost 120 years ago people realized their strong hand thumb leveraging the frame helped with pistol control, and only recently has it clicked for anyone it might be a good idea for the weak hand too. Originally Posted By -OdieGreen-: Originally Posted By dmk0210: That's interesting. I've never noticed anyone shooting a 1911 with an offhand thumb forward (probably saw it but just didn't notice). Any time I've seen someone actually proposing the technique it's been with a Glock. But then again, you can't throw a rock and not hit someone proposing some shooting technique while shooting a Glock. Off hand, no. But the point being it’s wildly odd that almost 120 years ago people realized their strong hand thumb leveraging the frame helped with pistol control, and only recently has it clicked for anyone it might be a good idea for the weak hand too. It is my understanding that revolvers absolutely dominated the non-military market 100 years ago (and many militaries still were using revolvers as well)-- at least for most serious uses. It was also considered best form to shoot any handgun with only one hand and two handed shooting didn't really come into vogue until it was popularized by Jeff Cooper and Jack Weaver if I recall correctly. |
|
Originally Posted By dmk0210: That's interesting. I've never noticed anyone shooting a 1911 with an offhand thumb forward (probably saw it but just didn't notice). Any time I've seen someone actually proposing the technique it's been with a Glock. But then again, you can't throw a rock and not hit someone proposing some shooting technique while shooting a Glock. Attached File |
Make sure you tell guys that the 1911 is a pain in the ass - Larry Vickers
|
Rob and Brian Enos basically invented thumbs forward. Or maybe refined and popularized is better as I am sure someone out there grabbed a gun that way 100 years ago. Not sure why this is a question or debate. Virtually all of the top shooters over the last 40 years have used that grip. Enough so it even carried over to police and military. Eventually it will reach the darkest dumbest corners of arfcom too. |
|
Originally Posted By fastluck13: Rob and Brian Enos basically invented thumbs forward. Or maybe refined and popularized is better as I am sure someone out there grabbed a gun that way 100 years ago. Not sure why this is a question or debate. Virtually all of the top shooters over the last 40 years have used that grip. Enough so it even carried over to police and military. Eventually it will reach the darkest dumbest corners of arfcom too. yep 
|
|
Originally Posted By NN300BLK: Does the support thumb have to apply pressure to the frame above or forward of the trigger guard to be considered thumbs forward? If it doesn't, is it thumbs down or thumbs forward if one thumb is or both thumbs are pointed forward? Not sure what this is asking. Quite a few pictures of the grip in this thread. Pressure is fairly neutral. Whatever thumbs down is, this isn’t it. |
|
If you notice, those guys really aren't canting their hands forward. Their wrists are inline with their forearm bones. I was talking about guys really pushing their offhand thumbs forward where their wrist is at an angle to the forearm. (A technique I do not subscribe to) I actually do what's shown in the pictures quoted, but didn't consider it "thumbs forward". Where else would you put your offhand thumb? I think there is a lot of confusion in this thread and a bunch of us are talking about different things. |
|
Originally Posted By fastluck13: Not sure what this is asking. Quite a few pictures of the grip in this thread. Pressure is fairly neutral. Whatever thumbs down is, this isn’t it. Originally Posted By fastluck13: Originally Posted By NN300BLK: Does the support thumb have to apply pressure to the frame above or forward of the trigger guard to be considered thumbs forward? If it doesn't, is it thumbs down or thumbs forward if one thumb is or both thumbs are pointed forward? Not sure what this is asking. Quite a few pictures of the grip in this thread. Pressure is fairly neutral. Whatever thumbs down is, this isn’t it. I'm kind of asking about the definitions that everyone is using to see if we're all on the same page. Many modern pistols (Echelon, Glock Gen 6, etc.) have geometry molded forward/above the trigger guard where the support thumb can be placed and the shooter can actively apply pressure/contact on these points to help control muzzle flip. Some people shoot with their thumbs sticking off to the side up in the air (like my dad and he is probably the best natural shot I've ever seen). I call this thumbs up. Others shoot with their strong thumb wrapped around the frame. The support thumb is pointing forward. On most semi-autos my strong hand thumb is on the thumb ledge (if present) somewhat pointing forward. Even on a 1911 my strong thumb is in the same position on the grip where there would be the thumb ledge. On a smaller revolver my thumb is more down, wrapped around the grip and in the ledge if present in the grip geometry, though still mostly pointing forward. In both cases my support hand is bracing my strong hand and my support thumb is near and only slightly forward of my strong hand thumb. I'm making no effort to reach the support hand forward or above the trigger and apply pressure on a frame ledge if present. I would think this is what is meant by thumbs down because they are not sticking up and to the side. With a 1911, I find that trying to get my thumb up on the safety with my more medium sized hand actually has no real benefit compared to just placing my thumb naturally. I have never engaged the safety on during recoil. As I said above, there's a technique where you actively apply pressure on a gas pedal or the molded in ledge. I thought this was called thumbs forward, because the support thumb is being positioned forward of the strong hand. |
|
Originally Posted By dmk0210: If you notice, those guys really aren't canting their hands forward. Their wrists are inline with their forearm bones. I was talking about guys really pushing their offhand thumbs forward where their wrist is at an angle to the forearm. (A technique I do not subscribe to) I actually do what's shown in the pictures quoted, but didn't consider it "thumbs forward". Where else would you put your offhand thumb? I think there is a lot of confusion in this thread and a bunch of us are talking about different things. Originally Posted By dmk0210: If you notice, those guys really aren't canting their hands forward. Their wrists are inline with their forearm bones. I was talking about guys really pushing their offhand thumbs forward where their wrist is at an angle to the forearm. (A technique I do not subscribe to) I actually do what's shown in the pictures quoted, but didn't consider it "thumbs forward". Where else would you put your offhand thumb? I think there is a lot of confusion in this thread and a bunch of us are talking about different things. I didn't see this post while writing my lengthy reply... dmk0210, you and I are on the same page. Better said than I. |
|
Thumbs forward is quite simply the thumbs pointing forward. It has nothing to do with the wrist. This is thumbs up. Attached File |
Make sure you tell guys that the 1911 is a pain in the ass - Larry Vickers
|
Originally Posted By Bradd_D: Thumbs forward is quite simply the thumbs pointing forward. It has nothing to do with the wrist. This is thumbs up. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/2261/img_7506_jpg-3779587.JPG So, are thumbs down and thumbs forward the same thing? What is it called when someone uses a gas pedal or thumb ledge like on a Glock Gen 6 or the Echelon? |
|
Originally Posted By NN300BLK: So, are thumbs down and thumbs forward the same thing? What is it called when someone uses a gas pedal or thumb ledge like on a Glock Gen 6 or the Echelon? Attached File Attached File |
Make sure you tell guys that the 1911 is a pain in the ass - Larry Vickers
|
Originally Posted By Bradd_D: This is thumbs down to me. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/2261/captured-thumb-grip3_jpg-3779612.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/2261/img_7508_jpg-3779613.JPG I guess my grip would be a variant of thumbs forward, because I'm definitely not rotating/bending my thumbs downward like with the training Glock. |
| Also, the wrist forward as seen with Glocks is good because it mitigates the wrist "breaking" which contributes more to recoil management than the wrist being in line with the forearm. Recoil is rotational and not linear because you can't get the hands in line with the bore. |
Make sure you tell guys that the 1911 is a pain in the ass - Larry Vickers
I'm not lazy, I just really enjoy doing nothing.
Joined:
Mar 2019
Posts:
15079
EE: 100% (17)
USA
|
Bill Wilson and Massad Ayoob (yeah yeah) have done some videos on handgun gripping techniques. I don't think anybody can argue with the success of the thumbs forward technique FOR TARGET SHOOTING WITH PISTOLS. The thumb(s) down(ish) technique seems to lend itself a little better to defensive type scenarios where there is a higher likelihood of only using one hand on the gun while the other hand is performing other tasks. Wrapping the thumb around like making a fist tends to be a stronger grip for one handed retention. Thumbs down(ish) is going to generally be safer for shooting revolvers - especially the bigger bores. There is also the argument they made about the thumbs down(ish) technique being easier to teach new shooters who may be learning on a variety of pistols and revolvers. So in true arfcom fashion we can 'get both' - depending on what your purpose is. I use a grip where my gripping hand thumb goes along side the frame and usually hits the thumb rest or palm swell on most pistols and catches the top of most revolvers grips. Then my support hand thumb 'cams' the gripping hand thumb onto the thumb rest/palm swell/revolver grip for a stronger grip with my gripping hand. My grip is almost identical for pistols and revolvers. I also grip the front of the trigger guard with the pointer finger of my support hand for two reasons. First, my middle finger is stronger than my pointer finger so when I'm pulling my support hand middle finger into my grip hand middle finger the forces are directly in line with my forearms and not offset like my pinkie fingers are. Secondly, I feel this gives me a little better control than having all four fingers of my support hand overlapping the the three fingers of my gripping hand because my support hand pinkie finger just kind of hangs off of the bottom of my gripping hand pinkie since my hands are on the larger side. Keeping the thumbs lower also doesn't obstruct as much of my field of view as higher thumbs. It may not be much but since most people tend to get tunnel vision in high stress shooting situations it can't hurt. I've placed in my share of local shooting events so my technique works well enough from that aspect. I've never tried shooting at any higher profile events. I've never been involved in a self defense shooting but I think practicing with the technique I described would be beneficial if the need ever arose. Fingers crossed I never find out.🤞 YMMV |
I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you.
 https://www.ar15.com/forums/handguns/G19-in-the-SF-communities-/13-179518/ |
Make sure you tell guys that the 1911 is a pain in the ass - Larry Vickers
Join the Community
Your next conversation starts here.
Create your free account to join discussions, share your experience, save topics, and connect with the AR15.COM community.
- Join discussions
- Follow topics and replies
- Connect with fellow enthusiasts
Already a member? Sign in
Stay informed by subscribing to our Newsletter