Joined:
Sep 2025
Posts:
1
EE: 0% (0)
NV, USA
Posted: 9/3/2025 9:19:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Carpenoctem702][Edited]
|
When a retailer lists cartridges as "NATO" rounds, can I REASONABLY EXPECT that what I'm getting are the hotter, "almost +P" rounds? Is that what you'd expect? I ordered what SentryAmmo.com listed as "9mm 124gr NATO FMJ" cartridges. When I got the stuff, the boxes did NOT say NATO, nor did the stamp on the cartridge itself have a "+" or any other designation specifying it was anything other than a standard round. So I emailed them and they send me this response: "Thank you for reaching out to us. I have reviewed your order. Although the box may not explicitly specify "NATO," please be assured that the 9mm ammo is produced to meet NATO specifications and standards. So, even if the box does not state "NATO," Lahab's 9mm 124-grain FMJ ammo is designed to NATO specifications and standards. If you have any other questions or concerns, please feel free to contact us." This response reeked of marketing-speak and absolutely DANCED around my question, expecting me to not understand the difference between "NATO-spec" (manufacturing quality standard) and actual NATO loaded rounds....hotter, higher velocity rounds. After I responded asking point-blank "are these the hotter rounds or not?" they ghosted me. Do I have a legitimate gripe against them? If a company lists something as "NATO," would YOU expect it to be the hotter round? This company has multiple shell companies, according to the BBB. The main company, according to BBB, seems to be Southern Defense, but they also have shell companies, Black Basin Outdoors, Fast Ammo, Ammo Hero, and Highland Outdoors, all listed on AmmoSeek.com I'm a new shooter and I'm excited to dive deeper into ownership of firearms and enjoying the community of other shooters, but stuff like this burns as a newbie. (I'm new and if this post doesn't belong here or I'm COMPLETELY in the wrong in my expectations and don't know it, let me know.) |
| 1260 FPS is the NATO spec, sounds like the company is FOS to me and leading people to think standard 124 grain 9mm is NATO spec. It's not. Is this new ammo or reloads? |
Liberals are a curious mix of communism and fascism, they want to destroy you but want to use your own money to do it.
I'm getting down to the last box, the others have all been destroyed...
I'm getting down to the last box, the others have all been destroyed...
|
What exactly are you expecting to do with the ammo? Punch holes in paper? Any minor velocity difference isn’t going to matter. It’s not going to impact your shooting in any meaningful way. Competition? I can’t really speak to this because all I do is 3-gun and match ammo isn’t gonna matter in run and gun. But if you’re a serious distance pistol shooter, you wouldn’t be buying this ammo; you’d be loading your own. Defensive/carry ammo? You chose wrong and should have JHP. And if for some reason you want FMJ, again the minor velocity difference isn’t going to make a difference. Either you hit a vital spot or you didn’t. An extra 50 fps or whatever it may be isn’t going to win you a gunfight. My point is, why are you concerned about it at all? Maybe you have some legit reason, but I think you’re way overthinking this. |
|
It was a few years ago when I bought a couple thousand rounds of the mil spec NATO round. They are still in my stacks somewhere, but I specifically recall that they said that the primers were a little harder and loads were a little hotter than your average range ammo. Frankly, I wouldn't pay more for that spec. It's range ammo. If it's FMJ 9MM it won't be substantially more effective to stop a threat. Use a quality hollow point for that. I keep home defense 9s loaded with 124gr +P hollow point, I practice with plain 124gr FMJ range ammo. |
|
Well I don't know who loads "NATO rounds," since I'm not aware of NATO owning their own ammo production ... but I also wouldn't order from that place. 124 gr. producing 400 ft-lbs. Look up STANAG 4172 specs if you want the actual NATO specs... which doesn't necessarily need the little cross in the brass. Have you chrono'd the ammo? Personally I think you're getting bent out of shape about something trivial. But hey it's your money. |
|
I'm too lazy to find a STANAG 4090. Here's a basic summary: "STANAG 4090 for NATO 9mm: It’s got to be 9mm, and gives the dimensions. Precision must be at least 3″ at 50yds. Bullet weight must be between 108gr and 128gr. Energy must be between 400ft/lbs and 600 ft/lbs. It must pass EPVAT testing. Mean pressure cannot exceed 37k PSI and 230MPa. Individual rounds can be as hot as 42.7k PSI and 265MPa. There are some primer specs. It needs to be water-proof. It needs the NATO cross marking on the headstamp." |
Joined:
Sep 2025
Posts:
2
EE: 0% (0)
NV, USA
| @BuddyChryst You’re answering a question I didn’t ask. I’m not sitting around worrying whether 50 fps makes me shoot straighter—I know it doesn’t. My concern is that I ordered ammo specifically listed as 124gr NATO and what showed up was just plain 124gr Luger, with no NATO designation anywhere on the box. In this industry, “NATO” isn’t a random marketing word—it signals a hotter load, closer to +P. That’s the standard consumer understanding, and it’s the reason I paid for it. So the issue isn’t me “overthinking,” it’s that the seller’s labeling was misleading. Ignoring that distinction is exactly how people get taken advantage of. |
Joined:
Sep 2025
Posts:
3
EE: 0% (0)
NV, USA
|
Originally Posted By NotIssued: Well I don't know who loads "NATO rounds," since I'm not aware of NATO owning their own ammo production ... but I also wouldn't order from that place. 124 gr. producing 400 ft-lbs. Look up STANAG 4172 specs if you want the actual NATO specs... which doesn't necessarily need the little cross in the brass. Have you chrono'd the ammo? Personally I think you're getting bent out of shape about something trivial. But hey it's your money. I think you’re focusing on the wrong part of my question. I’m not under the impression that NATO owns ammo factories—I’m pointing out that the seller listed the ammo as 124gr NATO. In the marketplace, that label is commonly understood to mean a hotter load, closer to +P. That’s why I chose it. What arrived was just standard 124gr Luger with no NATO designation at all. Whether it chronos at 400 ft-lbs or not isn’t really the issue—the problem is the labeling was misleading, and that’s a fair concern for any buyer. |
Winchester carries 124gr Nato in boxes labeled Valor & Nato and is what works best my MP5 clone.   I've never heard of Lahab ammo and googled it. Looks to be made in the UAE. https://edgegroupuae.com/solutions?brand=lahab_defence At around $3.74 a box of 50rds I'd be happy if it doesn't destroy my gun... |
|
Originally Posted By Carpenoctem702: In this industry, “NATO” isn’t a random marketing word—it signals a hotter load, closer to +P. That’s the standard consumer understanding, and it’s the reason I paid for it. So the issue isn’t me “overthinking,” it’s that the seller’s labeling was misleading. You said that’s the reason you paid for it. But you haven’t answered why. Is it that you just want the word “NATO” on the box? What does NATO spec do for you that WWB, Blazer Brass, Federal, or whatever doesn’t? I mean at this point you put in for an RMA, eat the shipping and restocking fee and never do business with them again. Or just shoot the ammo because it doesn’t matter. What are you hoping to get from us? What can we do to help you? Agree that you got ripped off? Is that what you want? |
|
Originally Posted By BuddyChryst: What are you hoping to get from us? What can we do to help you? Agree that you got ripped off? Is that what you want? Good questions. OP, maybe you can clarify what you're looking for - facts, answers to specific questions, opinions, recommendations or some combination. Your first post has details on what happened, but isn't super clear on what you're trying to get from the folks here. |
Life is too short to drive boring cars.
|
Originally Posted By D_J: Good questions. OP, maybe you can clarify what you're looking for - facts, answers to specific questions, opinions, recommendations or some combination. Your first post has details on what happened, but isn't super clear on what you're trying to get from the folks here. This kind of post belongs in GD, not a tech forum. |
If life was easy nobody would quit.
|
Sounds like bad marketing. No idea if it's actually NATO spec. You "should" be able to send it back on their nickel and get 100% reimbursement, however that's not going to happen. So you've essentially got two choices: 1. Choot it and never order from them again. 2. Pay to send it back and only get a partial reimbursement after the restocking fee. |
|
Originally Posted By DVCER: This kind of post belongs in GD, not a tech forum. Originally Posted By DVCER: Originally Posted By D_J: Good questions. OP, maybe you can clarify what you're looking for - facts, answers to specific questions, opinions, recommendations or some combination. Your first post has details on what happened, but isn't super clear on what you're trying to get from the folks here. This kind of post belongs in GD, not a tech forum. Depends on what he's looking for. |
Life is too short to drive boring cars.
|
Originally Posted By fxntime: 1260 FPS is the NATO spec, sounds like the company is FOS to me and leading people to think standard 124 grain 9mm is NATO spec. It's not. Is this new ammo or reloads? I think 1260fps is from a MP5 or similar subgun. From a pistol barrel that would be well over +P (38.5kpsi) and into +p+ territory, whereas NATO spec is typically in 36kpsi-37kpsi. |
|
"9mm NATO" is considered the caliber by many. Like "9mm Luger", "9X19", "9mm Para"...etc. It's NOT the most honest marketing to label it "NATO" but not necessarily dishonest. If they advertised "M882 NATO spec" ammo then the OP would have a point. OP, I would check out Winchester's offerings as some are the spicy "NATO spec" that you are looking for. The new 115 FMJ "truncated nose" mil-spec ammo seems super spicy. Also, S&B 9mm, especially their 115FMJ, feels full power to me and may be an option. Back about 10-12 years ago, PSA was selling Winchester 9mm "NATO M882" ammo that felt quite warm and possibly legit M882. I bought some for whatever reason but it's a little hot for target practice or competition so I just saved it as my 3rd tier ammo stash in case of WWIII. Note: That some M882 clone ammo may have sealed primers and some will not. Half of that Win. M882 ammo doesn't have sealant, which pisses me off. I have no idea why folks seek out the hottest FMJ ammo. Same for why someone seeks out the slowest possible JHP defense ammo. But sometimes I practice using 40SW for a match I plan to use 9mm guns so maybe the OP has the same idea to "practice hard". |
|
I think if you paid a premium for something labeled as "NATO" and the product or description was misleading, you should return or exchange. If what you bought was the same price as other 9mm offerings, chalk it up to a crappy retailer/brand and move on. Letting us know about your experience is good enough. |
"I said,'I don't know how to vomit softly.' That's like telling someone to shit perfume."
| Just from going to sentryammo and searching "lahab", one product shows up: 124gr 9mm. I don't see the word "NATO" anywhere on the page nor any velocity claims. Did they change the listing or did you maybe get products mixed up? |
"I said,'I don't know how to vomit softly.' That's like telling someone to shit perfume."
|
Originally Posted By BuddyChryst: You said that’s the reason you paid for it. But you haven’t answered why. Is it that you just want the word “NATO” on the box? What does NATO spec do for you that WWB, Blazer Brass, Federal, or whatever doesn’t? I mean at this point you put in for an RMA, eat the shipping and restocking fee and never do business with them again. Or just shoot the ammo because it doesn’t matter. What are you hoping to get from us? What can we do to help you? Agree that you got ripped off? Is that what you want? What difference does it make why he wants it?  That's not going to solve OP's problem. He ordered NATO 9mm. Some guns like the MP5 run better with it. It has sealed case and primers. That's why it's more expensive. OP, I would do a charge back if they don't reply back with your satisfaction. |
|
Originally Posted By fortydelta: I think if you paid a premium for something labeled as "NATO" and the product or description was misleading, you should return or exchange. If what you bought was the same price as other 9mm offerings, chalk it up to a crappy retailer/brand and move on. Letting us know about your experience is good enough. pretty much my opinion. Winchester has numerous 9mm FMJ offerings. they load what THEY refer to as a NATO load. it is generally priced a bit higher and has a slightly higher velocity than their regular 124 gr FMJ. if OP paid a premium for THAT specific SKU -- and received a different substitute -- he has a legitimate gripe IMO. |
|
Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: "9mm NATO" is considered the caliber by many. Like "9mm Luger", "9X19", "9mm Para"...etc. It's NOT the most honest marketing to label it "NATO" but not necessarily dishonest. If they advertised "M882 NATO spec" ammo then the OP would have a point. ... I have no idea why folks seek out the hottest FMJ ammo. Same for why someone seeks out the slowest possible JHP defense ammo. But sometimes I practice using 40SW for a match I plan to use 9mm guns so maybe the OP has the same idea to "practice hard". + more penetration (if desirable) + more recoil impulse can obviate 'some' pistol failures (like limp-wristing) + recoil impulse more closely resembling 'hotter' SD / HD loads + better response from steel targets (if desirable) |
|
Originally Posted By MFP_4073: + more penetration (if desirable) + more recoil impulse can obviate 'some' pistol failures (like limp-wristing) + recoil impulse more closely resembling 'hotter' SD / HD loads + better response from steel targets (if desirable) Makes sense. |
|
Had the same issue a little over a year ago iirc. Bought some prvi partisan 124gr 9mm from a well known retailer that was listed as NATO spec in the description. Upon arrival it was not ppu’s nato spec loading. The retailer issued a full refund, paid for return shipping and edited their listing. I’ve slept since then but IIRC they weren’t the only retailer that has this particular ammo listed wrong. Also, NATO spec 9mm is double sealed, or supposed to be. Sadly most if not all current US made 9mm ‘nato’ is not double sealed or sealed at all. |